stan herman

Don't know how to slot myself. I think I know enough about the unsayable Tao to know the sayable Tao (in most of its translations) is an excellent though somewhat outdated message. And he who studies it should also study other messages as well.

Interesting thread. My view goes something like this (it changes from time to time): One who is enlightened seldom thinks of himself as enlightened anymore. 'Enlightenment' becomes merely a word. Realizing the illusory nature of the world, he recognizes himself as a projector of phenomena, and realizes his judgments of others' attainments are severely limited by his own predispositions and biases. (Of course if he were unmovingly enlightened he would have no biases--but then neither would he still be a human being.

One thing I notice, in the entire string of this conversation there seems to be an underlying assumption of the primacy of 'humanity'--and an unexpressed , unexamined belief that God/the universe/the Big System really cares about humanity in its current form. Seems to me both assumptions are questionable. For instances, the present human is highly unlikely to be the epitome of evolution--even for the foreseeable future some cyborg variation seems just over the horizon (given the course of global pollution). And beyond that stage, perhaps a less material version of 'consciousness container'? Like it or not, seems to me, we're just another stage in an onward march.

Bravo

Then it's not as great an idea as it could be. What a fascinating experiment it could be. For example: " I suppose that is why we Taoists are told to empty our mind. (No biases left.) (No, I'm not real good at that yet. Hehehe.)" Why is that Vajra's fault?

I'm in general agreement with the message here. The individual person, even the mass of them called 'humanity', are just too limited in perspectives--time, matter, intelligence, imagination and more--to ascertain the purpose of so great a system as God. It's been said that God works in mysterious ways--how could it be otherwise. Purpose supposes intentionality. Intentionality assumes mechanism. How can humans even conceptualize any intentions or methods beyond those in which they themselves are immersed?

I like that, keeping in mind that the 'balance' is not static but dynamic--always changing. Realizing that without thinking it, and smiling is the wordless Tao, seems to me.

Yes indeed, and it's important to notice the context in which he kept saying it. If I remember correctly, it was NOT to comfort Carlos and reassure him that he was as good as other people. Quite the contrary, it was to tell him to quit feeling sorry for himself and blaming others for his difficulties. Don Juan and his old buddy (can't recall his name) used a lot of humor to make their points.

Chi, thanks much for the above. It is fascinating to think how much interpretation, personal projection, political correctness must go into the translations. AND my guess is that much of the translation currently available is based on previous translations--perhaps many--since the original writing.

Having recently been engaged in an exchange about reducing ego-power and hierarchies, verses 21 and 22 came into view. 21. Perspectives abound. The worker, the supervisor; the engineer, the salesman; the bold, the cautious; the analyst, the activist--each gathers in information and molds it to a form that suits his singular disposition. Each form constructed from the materials of that person's interests, experiences and feelings. Thus opinions are derived and closely held. But opinions are no more than run off from that enormous hidden stream that moves all things along. Competent people make sense of their opinions, superior people make sense of many opinions, outstanding people realize the source of opinions. 22. Quick and easy success can dull your edge. Establishing your image can slow your moves. Maintaining your position can leave you behind. Refining your data can blunt your instincts. There is danger in complacency. Deviating from the shortest path one better learns the geography. Advancing more slowly one has time to know the inhabitants. Bending to pressure, one remains unbroken and may later spring back vigorously. Driving one's self less one may be carried on the drive of well selected others. Recognizing one's self as no more nor less than an equal, others may credit one's specialness.

What I find most useful is a SENSE OF HUMOR--applied to yourself and your doings. I don't find it very useful to deny hierarchies--they exist and in day-to-day life they're important. There are also differences in 'intelligence' and 'competence' among people--no sense in denying that either. Somebody said (may have been Lincoln) that We are all ignorant--only on different subjects. Seems to me that's true about competencies as well. Getting rid of my ego is hard, hard, hard, to do. Learning to notice what it does without chastising it is easier, and then eventually watching it do its number and smiling at it tolerantly I find works nicely in softening and relaxing it so it's easier for me to let go of its habits--at least those that don't serve me well. BUT, let me be clear there are some pieces of my ego I dearly love, and I'm damned if I have any intention of giving those up until it's time for my transfer out

Yes, a good way of saying it--in a kind of intermediate way. At a somewhat more tightly focused way, one would drop the qualifier "without any alterior purpose". On close examination even an ulterior purpose would be included--it is after-all no more than a mental 'illusion' accompanying an inevitable action.

Drive is probably the crucial dimension of power. Power is not a sin, nor is it a violation of Tao. It is a tool. A person with extraordinary drive directed toward a particular goal can often make things happen (whether she consciously follows these suggestions or not). Drive is an intangible that's made up of fascination, inclination, and physical and mental energy. People with extraordinary drive are noticeable. They don't give up, they persist, not always pleasantly. Those of us who have a less intense degree of drive in our character need to use what we have selectively. One way that can be done is through a self-calibrating process. You can deliberately ask yourself how much energy you really have and want to make available for a particular goal or plan. A realistic equation that balances what you want with what you're willing to invest can prevent useless frustration and self-criticism.

To remind the reader. This thread is about the practical uses of Tao in ordinary life. Many, perhaps most of the TTC translations/interpretations seem to me to be written with a predisposition toward the passive, submissive and inactive modes of addressing life. One needs to read for the nuance to find that, in fact it allows for robust and forceful action as well, when this is natural. I think it's worthwhile to consider these positions on the continuum of existence (which also manifest in the whole of the universe), and for each individual to have access to a fuller range of capability. In my view, Patience and Drive are both aspects of Wu wei. Patience is the ability to wait. It includes the capacity to endure ambiguous and difficult times with composure. Being able to function well in times of suspense, when you don't know how issues you feel strongly about will turn out, or even in adversity, when they turn out badly. For the short-term too patience can help one to pace one's self and tactics. You can think of this as 'operational patience'. One example of operational patience for a leader (or teacher) is recognizing it may be better to provide followers/students gradually with information you think they can absorb rather than unloading all at once. In a military sense, plan campaigns rather than individual battles. As a leader your reputation for patience, persistence and endurance is also important for mobilizing effort from others. One must develop the patience to listen and hear alternative points of view even when one's convictions seem to lead toward a predetermined conclusion. Others have to know you're serious and your proposed goals aren't just passing whims that will be blown away by the first squall of opposition. And when your proposal prevails in the battle for acceptance that doesn't mean the war is won. Be ready to endure early mis-steps and failures as you climb the learning curve to implementing a plan.

I Agree. No desires is when we is all done wif it all--around here anyway. Here's yet another take: 37. In the midst of action hides tranquility. Those who find it act without exertion, allowing their natures to select their choices and motions. Leaders who know tranquility are not obsessed by maximum yields or compelled to self-righteous destinations. Setting aside the weighty burden of an ultimate goal they guide people more gracefully through both difficult and easy times, continuing without concluding. Though it must be sought, tranquility can not be found by hunting. It eludes the hunter, until, of its own free will, it seeks out the one who awaits it.

Two questions: 1 How has your reading of the Tao affected your thinking about life? 2 How has your reading of the Tao affected what you do in life?

nicely said, Thanks

The truth that bothered (still does, but less) me the most was that people lie, not just when threatened, but as a matter of course. The most flagrant liars, seems to me, are those who talk a lot about valuing truth. White-lying (being nice) has become a virtue--'tis an easy virtue.

Manitou, if I were a genuine sage, I wouldn't answer that--just leave you wondering But I'm not, so instead I admire you for diggin' at it. Both the sage and the ox are just doin' their things (like the rest of us) and all the 'things' knock and slide against each other and so the world is made--both the parts we like and the parts we don't. What's fascinating (to me at least) is the 'how' they do it--a combination of context and consciousness. The more I learn about that the more my awareness of what's going on among other people (and the laws of physics) increases--expanding my perspectives. And gradually, as I do that, and glimpse the way the Big System (or God, if you like) works--extending my perspectives.

Yeah...and it's 'existence' takes so many different forms The nice thing about its non-existence is that it has only one--none.

Famine does not stalk the land The people are content and their bellies full Who is responsible for this Is it the lord who filled his warehouses with grain Or is it his wise advisor who saw the need Or is it the sun who kissed the rice shoots gently Or the river's water that embraced them Is it the brave soldier who captured the rice bandit Shin Or the back-bent planters, or the harvesters Or those who toil in the rice mill until dark night Or the mothers who cook the porridge every day What of next year

Really nice -- I like the 10 Bulls a lot. Btw, how do I find out how to post pictures--and while I'm at it what some of the symbols mean?