Neikung

Also during a break of a seminar, we went out into the street and it was evening, at one point passed a car with an elderly woman and her son drove great that he tried to start the car.

In response to the situation, our Guru laughed hoarsely, almost laughing at these unfortunates.

The boy, having nothing else to do it has not kill him, he just yelled at him something like, "Oh, laugh animal !!!!".

I would have buried in shame, I was ashamed for him and the fact of not having taken up immediately because of its incredible lack of awareness, or simply of good taste and education.

Hi Ramus, just out of curiosity, have you ever seen DV sitting in full lotus? With the claim of his achievement, he should be able to sit for more than 30' in full lotus. Someone in this forum claimed that DV couldn't even sit half lotus for too long.

I haven't met him. I've met one taobum who has, and find that person credible.

I have met DV and found him NOT credible. All the negative talks about him are there for good reasons.

 

I have not met with him in person and I don't know about his obsessions for power, sex - but I will second the ramus thought about his obsession for money

 

Someone calling himself a teacher, a guide on the path of Tao, should at least have some basic ethical values - like keeping his promises or being reliable to his students. Unfortunately, in my opinion, David seems to lack this basic requirements.

 

I made a mistake - and I recommend anyone choosing him as a master to think not twice but at least ten times before deciding.

Wow...thank you for sharing your experience. Let it be a warning to those who are still seeking DV despite all the telltale signs of something very fishy.

Thanks ThunderSon, well at least we clear up what David Verdesi teaches. Now what does all those demos of Jiang and his teachers (who are from Shaolin Buddhist lineage according to an acquaintance of mine who had met them) have to do with "Da Zhen" (if such person exist)'s teachings? Oh right they are all LSD right ?

 

Also Verdesi was kicked out of China last year according to his letters posted here which meant he was cut off from Jiang and co. And about the same time, he had found his root in "Miao Tong Dao" again and bemoan the uselessness of LSD (both the practice and the drugs probably ) for enlightenment. Am I ebing cynical or is that, oh, all destiny ?? Something to ponder on.

As for Verdesi's previous Sifu Jiang, I recently found another blog that complained about him. Here it is in Chinese:

http://bbs.travel.163.com/bbs/jiangnan/136945213.html

and its google English translation:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...i%26rls%3Den-us

From this blog and the previous article in Taiwan's Apple Daily, Jiang certainly looks suspicious. He might have some power (or not?) but one thing is for sure: he loves $ and will do anything to get rich. As others have said, there are many charlatans who use qigong to earn their living.

Vortex,

 

>>>If he's attained level 4, does that mean he has fused his dantian to his huiyin? And does he claim to be enlightened now?<<<

 

David joined his yin and yang. Fusing the huiyin to the dantain, no. It means that he will take his yang chi when he dies and will not reincarnate unless he chooses. David never said he is enlightened. I would say he has a high level of realization.

 

>>>Is it evident that David has any real attainments or aura in person?<<<

 

Yes, of course. He has joined his Yin and Yang and his Shen practice is very strong so he can also give empowerment. Just by being in the room with him students can get a lot of help in their practice.

Thunderson,

What is David's proof that he has achieved level 4? Being able to electrocute another person is not a proof by itself since one can do that through magic tricks (tesla coils hidden in the shoes for example). Have you seen him attracting/pushing a box from a distance similar to what Jim did in the youtube video?

Does David Verdesi has something beyond just being a good salesman. The main argument against is that it's expensive, so it must be a scam. This is not a logical argument. I'm not saying it is or it isn't a scam by the way.

I don't think being expensive is the main argument although it did add to the absurdity. The main point for me (and I suspect many others) is that David has been caught lying in many many occasions.

I hope people realised that there are no such things as "lei shan dao", "Miao Tong Dao" and god knows what else. These are just names Verdesi invented in his own imgainary daoist classification system. It had come to my attention not long ago that he claimed his teacher Jiang is from "da mo pai", which is surprising since Jiang told one of my acquaintance that his lineage is called Shaolin Geng Men, I guess no one will be interested in a school called Geng Men and "da mo pai" sounds more, idk, "hotter" . And you know since Da Mo was from Shaolin, so i guess "da mo pai" is not completely wrong.

I have noticed that too a while ago and thought wow, this guy really knows how to sell stuff...he somehow unifies all the disparate qigong disciplines into one "unified theory of everything". The Chinese character for "Mo" in Damo is of course different from "Mo" in Mopai. No one except David would call Shaolin as Damo pai or worse "Da mo pai".

Prices are as follow ( and can and will change without prior notice) 45.000 euro for Jiang. 24.000 for Liping.

 

David

Amazing!! IF David really achieves so called Yin Yang Gong, why would anyone still need to study with Jiang or Liping. They could have learned everything from him!!

Thanks for the input Neikung,I heard about that guy in Dr Verdesi's Video - So this is Him. However something about that whole setup looks suspicious.

 

Regards,

As discussed in this forum before, Zhai has been accused of fraud and Verdesi might not even have a doctorate degree. This video further heightened the suspicion. Stigweard described nicely all the telltale signs of a magician's act in this video.

Best,

Rofl i think your right I didnt want to say earlier,but im certain also theres some kind of sleight of hand involved.

 

Regards,

I have seen this guy before in a video sold by David Verdesi. He is a student of Sifu Zhai Jiang Feng (David Verdesi's sifu who lives in Huang Shan). In that video, he supposedly started fire with hays using the same method (with right hand hidden underneath, moving his left hand excessively etc).

Here are my questions to David:...

David called Viktor Siao after the latter made a statement on the forum on my behalf. Then he called an interpreter, and she called me. I asked her to relate to David the above questions; he never responded and I haven't heard from him since. However, I know that the announcement on the internet is still posted, and people are still being invited to participate. My question is -- how come?..

Mmmm. This is interesting. Is David really Wang Li Ping's tudi as he claimed he is? How come he can't even communicate with Wangliping for such a simple thing?

Again its just me ... its my opinion I'm not telling David Sheng its wrong, Siffu X is laying ... or anything like that I'm just expression my opinion on a honest way and I want to get to know your opinion about the issue.

For me, the most telling thing about David is the fact that he called himself Dr. Verdesi (for Ph.D.). When questioned in this forum earlier this year, his "title" suddenly disappeared from the various web sites, including his own. In this modern day of age, titles are not to be taken lightly and shouldn't be misused. Unless there is a very good explanation, this alone should serve as a big warning sign.

Of course the point is irrelevant since David is level four now; as much as that will upset some people, I believe it's true...

These points are not irrelevant because it speaks of the integrity of a person. If all you said about David &Sifu Chang had been true, I would then believe all the other things you (David) say about Sifu Jiang/Sifu Wang/Lei Shan Dao lineages/David's accomplishments etc. Believe it or not, I have actually met David before and if he has indeed achieved Lv4, I'd be the first one here to congratulate him with all my heart.

Perhaps the main complaint from people who have associated themselves with the Mo Pai, such as yourself (although I would have trouble believing that you are even nominally associated with Mo Pai), is that I have used the 'Mo Pai' brand to advertise David.

Let's look at what is being said. David was a student of John Chang.... But when I see people attacking David and playing silly games, I feel obligated to set the record straight. If people are upset about that, that's their problem and it doesn't change the simple facts of the situation.

I am not attacking David but just to get the facts out. I haven't said much before but feel like I need to speak out now as the exaggeration is getting worse. You can say whatever you like about David and Sifu Jiang/ Sifu Wang as I have no way of checking. However, you should stop branding David as a Mopai student, past or present. If he never practiced Mopai qigong, then he was never a student...just because he met Sifu Chang does not automatically mean that he is a student.

 

I think you are making more of this then you need to. I mean if John Chang was simply David's friend, is it worth getting upset about?

These people are simply pointing out your false advertisements/claims that David is somehow a world expert in Mopai and has a close relationship with Sifu Chang.

In numerous occasions, you have made many claims that are simply not true (presumably because you got false information from David). For example, you have posted that:

1. Sifu Chang is going to China to help David with his neikung (but you have said yourself that Mopai is closed to all westerners starting 2002/2003...aren't these 2 statements contradictory already?)

2. David has L2 test (like Jim in this video) without the help of Sifu Chang...but David is, as you posted, a non-practicing student. Tongkosong was right when he said that David didn't even practice Lv1, let alone could move the boxes from far away by himself.

3. Sifu Chang would still welcome David into his house. In fact, I have heard that Sifu Chang was furious when he learned about David's tour business and wanted nothing to do with him anymore.

On the other hands, you are commendable to point out that "..the idea of getting the techniques and actually succeeding without the help of John Chang is just wishful thinking....you will need the help of a qualified teacher." Some people in this forum have the naivete that they can learn neigong through the internet (free or not) or through a few minute phone calls. There is a very good reason why in the ancient time, Masters do not take Tu Di lightly and will only admit them after thorough testing (of their characters and determinations). If people in this forum really want to learn neigong, go to China and find the masters either through David or by themselves. Jiang, for example, is not difficult to find. His address and personal data are available in the internet (e.g. in the article published by the Taiwanese Apple Daily magazine).

The picture you see of the hand with the needles and 'jello' are fakes. That's not Jiang's hand and he proved it by showing us the article and letting us compare the picture with his hand. ...This is a classic example of how things get distorted by the media.

Attacking the picture in the article with a needle is pointless because the magazine already stated that it was only a model.

手法二 罐拔瘀血（模擬）

If you know Chinese, you can read the caption above the picture taken from the original article. It said in parenthesis, "moni" or proposed model. The magazine did state clearly that this picture, unlike all the others, was a model based on the proposed use of a needle (Sifu Jiang should have known about this). The writer was wrong about the needle but I wonder if one can simply tap a spot on the body very hard, cup, then tap again to break open a skin. Blood then naturally coagulates.

Jiang showed him how to train in the Xiao Dao, a lower order training done with tesla coils.

What is Xiao Dao with tesla coils? So what the student said about tesla coils was correct then. If you have a reference to the student's retraction, can you please provide the link to the article?

OK so who IS "Jiang" -- is there any thread or website or book, etc?

 

Or do I have to enact a Baboon male greeting here or what?

Drew,

A thread discussing Jiang has been posted elsewhere: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...jiang&st=60

A Taiwanese magazine claimed that he is a fraud. Here is a clip taken from the magazine (in Chinese): http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/flyzenmaster-wi...3&next=1571

According to this article, his full name is Zhai Jiang Feng. He is the fifth lineage holder of the Shaolin Geng Men (Heavenly Gate) Qigong. He lives in HuangShan and supposedly has disciples in Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore.

How Shaolin Geng Men Qigong becomes part of LeiShanDao is a mystery to me. At any case, Sifu John, Jiang and Wang Li Ping are not in the same lineage. Now, can you imagine a Master continues to teach a student once he knows that the student is studying with another Master? Anyone who knows Martial Art culture would know that it is disrespectful to the teacher for a student to study co-currently with more than 1 master and is a big no no.

Actually David is still a student of John Chang and they do keep in touch. John Chang will be in China to meet with David and witness/assist his training as he completes the level five. John Chang supports David and they have always maintained their friendship.

Sean...I know what you said here is simply not true! I hope that you are just misinformed and not made things up just to beef up David's credentials. What Scualo said was correct ("David is not a student of John Chang anymore"). In fact, I understand that David has never really studied with John Chang.. he was just one of the visitors. I remember David himself said in your forum that he was John Chang's non-practicing student. Furthermore, anyone who studies qi knows that it is not good to mix things up....Here you claims that in addition to Mopai, David is studying with Jiang and Wang Li Ping. Even if they are in the same general lineage as you claim there are (but there is really no supporting evidence what so ever), this mixing-qi practice (if David really does it) could lead to major health problems.

The difference between us denty is that you feign a benign spirituality until you can't (like when that guy asked about your guru's credentials, which you refuse to discuss) then you resort to cursing. It's a typical passive/aggressive way of acting. I'm not feigning anything. I am who I am and am completely comfortable with that. I don't need to involve myself in the fantastical. And whenever I see bullshit I'm going to point it out. You want to promote it, I want to expose it. So far, none of the videos of these alleged powers ring true. Most of them have been debunked, yours will too. But if you want to remain deluded more power to you. It's when you try to justify your nonsense that I'll chime in. Om Mani Padme Hum.

Buddy, It is healthy to have some levels of skepticism but one can't be too closed minded either. In addition to dark matter/energy, there are many phenomena unexplained by the current state of science. Acupuncture, for example, has been proven to work (clinical trials have been done and scientific papers have been published) but we have no clue how. Of course if you haven't experienced it, you won't believe that a few needles can somehow cure a disease. I am sure for many people the same principle applies for Qi.

As for Sean Denty, his teacher's credential is indeed questionable. I don't understand why his teacher, David, wouldn't gladly supply the information about where/when he got his doctoral degree. There shouldn't be anything secretive about it especially because PhD thesis is usually available publicly either in the university library or published in a journal. Having said that, I wouldn't discount Sean's claims about Sifu Jiang so easily either. The burn on the palm looks interesting and looks real although I also don't understand why anyone would want his/her laogong point burned like that. According to Chinese doctors, laogong is a major point, if hurt, it can lead to health problems.

Bring it on. You "believers" don't have a prayer. One can't prove a negative. It's up to the claimant to prove the veracity of their claim. If I show a video of someone doing this and admitting it's a trick, what would that prove. Does anyone here doubt gravity? inertia? thermodynamics? Please spare me your "faith" in the impossible. I don't need faith to tell me gravity exists. It exists a priori to my belief in it.

Until recently, many physicists thought that they have solved the "big" questions in physics and that there are only a few forces like gravity, electromagnetism, strong and weak forces. Do you know what you call "natural laws" in your previous post only cover 4% of the universe? 96% of the universe are dark energy and dark matter. Here for example is an interview with a prominent physicist regarding his discovery of dark matter/energy and his total lack of understanding of what they are: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=discov...a-dark-universe. There are many books written about dark matter/energy but no one has any clue to what their characteristics are (hence the name "dark"). My point is even physicists can't say that everything has to obey the known "natural law" as they don't even know what govern 96% of our universe! How would you know that qi may not relate to dark energy? (I don't know the answer of course but neither do you or anyone else).

The guys name is not Richard, I heard the story from John Chang's close personal student.

Richard is his last name. You were apparently given the wrong info.

Well, I can tell you that David teaches a body of knowledge..It's like getting a PhD in Daoist theory.....This system belongs to the Zhu Ji stage, or foundation stage, and it is mostly used in the Jin Dan Dao (alchemical path) ..

What David offers in his teaching is what you would get if you were a closed door student of Sifu Wang Liping..

Very interesting and detailed description of what David teaches. It seems to me that these are all Daoist techniques. There is no methods taught by Shifu Zhai then (who supposedly teaches Shaolin Geng Men technique, which is Buddhist)?

For those who want to get the proof and have a scientist at hand who is truly interested in taking part in future studies, let me know and I will try to arrange contacts.

It seems to me that you don't really need scientists...all you need are a metal detector, an electrical measurement device (assuming that qi electricity will be very different from regular electricity generated by battery or Tesla coils) and an infra-red thermometer (or an infra-red video) to measure if an intense heat can come from Shifu Zhai's finger.

Neikung...why are you so inclined to believe Atek et al without extending the same fairness to Zhai et al?

I am just trying to get a reasonable explanation for the article. Sean's reasoning that he did this to avoid publicity just does not make any sense to me....he actually got more publicity because of it. It is hard to dismiss Atek so easily because he has so much information, has no obvious motivation to lie and also because of the purported insane amount of $ given for the "dan" pills. On the other hand, I actually think that Zhai's videos which were available briefly in youtube, did look quite convincing (that he has some kind of power).

It's fine. I would probably come to the same conclusion in your shoes. Like I said, I met Zhai personally as an insider and he demonstrated things to me that I cannot explain any other way.

Anyway, Wang Liping headed up a major government research project in the 1980's and was not received well and basically accused of fraud. It was very public and Wang realized that the bridge was too far to cross and happy receeded from the public eye. As for Chang, I did have a chance to speak with the guy who is the subject of this post I wrote several months ago.

This is really the way it's always been in China. The masters reveal themselves on there own terms. The person who wrote that article about Jiang (zhai sifu) was not a student. Just an ignorant fool; sifu was happy to play his game and send him on his way.

Hi Sean,

Sorry to say that your argument that all the Masters have lied to lie to avoid public scrutiny rings hollow to me....I don't see the motivation in this story. As it happens, I know Richard, the guy who went looking for John Chang a few years ago...his story of what happened there is completely opposite of what you wrote in the forum..you might want to check with your source again. As for Atek, the person who went to the Taiwanese Daily Newspaper, how do you know that he was not a student? He has so much information about Shifu Zhai not found elsewhere, including Shifu Zhai's age, full name, address, Zhai's previous job as a Tui Na practitioner in XiHai hotel, his pictures etc that it is hard to believe that he was not a student or at least someone who knew Shifu Zhai well. I can understand being upset when a Master that you genuinely believe was attacked publicly but to convince people, your statements should be based on some facts. I don't see any motivation for Atek to lie in this story and I am still yet to be convinced that Shifu Zhai was simply playing game. After all, I am sure that Shifu Zhai has a reputation to uphold with the Foundation students and his students all over Asia.

Regards,

Brian

There were similar articles about John Chang and Wang Liping; masters even often agree to play along at the request of the Chinese government.

Hi Sean:

I am not aware of any articles that support your sweeping claim above. Can you actually back this up with references (i.e. links to articles about someone with close personal experience with either John Chang or Wang Liping and claims that they are not real?).

Of course, we can believe whatever we want but when a large sum of money is exchanged, suspicion arises because the motivation for fraud is there. I assume from your answer that you haven't personally met Shifu Zhai.... how can you dismiss this article so easily then?

If you have a look its actually a Web Log not a Newspaper

As I said, the original article can be found in the Taiwanese Apple Daily http://1-apple.com.tw/apple/. You'll need to register first and then perform a search. The blog is identical to the newspaper article in the Apple Daily web site.

I would say the main reason we don't want these out there is that is what Shifu Jiang requested. He just prefers the videos remain private and doesn't want his face plastered all over YouTube.

Hi Sean and others in the taobums forums:

I found an article previously published in a Taiwanese newspaper about Shifu Jiang and I'd like to know what all of you think.

While searching for articles about Qigong in China, my friend and I came upon a newspaper clip published in Taiwan (Apple Daily Newspaper) that complained about a Qigong Master.

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/flyzenmaster-wi...3&next=1571

The original article (published July 15, 2007) can be found in the Apple Daily web site but access requires registration (in Chinese).

The picture of that article seems to be Sifu Jiang that has appeared with David in Thailand earlier this year http://www.samuiexpress.net/?q=node/397. Here is a rough translation of the story:

Basically, the article is about a person in Taiwan complaining to the Apple Daily newspaper that in seeking for a Qigong Master, he became disenchanted after spending NT$ 800,000 (NT$32=US $1) but to learn at the end that the purported "qi" emitted by his Master is nothing but regular electricity generated by Tesla high power coils hidden inside the Master's body.

According to the Apple Daily reporter, this person (named Atek) first learned of a powerful Master from a local Qigong Master Zhuang (in GuoXiong city of Taiwan) who demonstrated his electric qi by shocking him. Amazed, he immediately paid NT$12,000 to learn the Qigong techniques from Zhuang. In May 2006, Zhuang organized a group of his disciples (including ATek) to visit their ShiGong in Huang Shan. Zhuang's Shifu is a 43 years-old fifth generation Shaolin GengMen Grandmaster named Zhai Jiang Feng. Shifu Zhai demonstrated many amazing feats, including "taking bad blood using suction cups", "turning ordinary water into sweet elixir", pyrogenesis, breaking stones from a distance etc. Shifu Zhai also sold "Dan" pills that can dissolve away blood blockages for NT$66,000 each. The group ended up spending a total of NT$3 Million to buy 50 pills.

Impressed, Atek went back to Huang Shan 3 times a year to learn the amazing "electric" Qigong. In the last visit, however, he was instructed by Shifu Zhai to learn how to withstand high voltage electricity. Confused, Atek demanded explanation. After being sworn not to tell anyone, Atek was told (by Shifu Zhai) that the "electric qi" actually came from a Tesla transformer coils and all other "Qigong" feats are just magic tricks. Atek obtained the electric qi diagram and showed it to the Apple Daily reporter, who confirmed it with an EECS professor from the National Taiwan University. Anyone wearing the Tesla coils pictured in the diagram could emit electricity, the professor said. The professor also told the reporter that one could easily generate fire with a combination of Potassium permanganate and glycerin.

The photos show Shifu Jiang and his Taiwan disciple Zhuang. A series of secretly taken photos (1-4) purported showed how ordinary water was turned into sweet elixir when Shifu Zhai's Assistant (on the back) switched the bottle cap with another one containing sugar. After mixing it, the "qi" act supposedly turned the water into something sweet that can cure many different illnesses and prolong life.

The last 2 pictures are punching a patient's skin with a needle (just a hypothetical example) and how patient's "bad blood" was taken out through qi. However, please note that blood naturally forms solid clots through coagulation.

Neikung