Neikung

 

John Chang from Mo Pai also die and we can as young.

 

This is fake news. 

Ok dude, I get it.

So what would be your advice to westerner people who want to learn a system similar to Mo Pai?

Is there an alternative to westerners then?

If your guys' goal is really to just keep westerners from screwing themselves up with improper Mo pai training,

only pointing them to an alternative will really do the trick.

You can point to the dangers of unrevised and dangerous Mo Pai training all day long,

I doubt that this will keep any fanatic from training in it until there is an alternative.

Are you aware of a legit Nei Kung teacher who teaches Nei Kung to westerners?

Some constructive input would be very appreciated,

by all of us.

In case an alternative for westerners is found, most likely no westerner will ever attempt to train in Mo Pai anymore.

It's as simple as that.

 

Btw, I am aware of a Chi Kung system (and it's teacher) available to westerners that seems to work in filling your tantien with compressed yang chi,

but this system does not include working with yin chi.

So my question to you is: Will a tantien filled with condensed yang chi allow me to exit the cycle of reincarnation, according to your informations and according to the teachings of your school?

Or, if I want to exit the cycle of reincarnation, do I need to train necessarily in a Nei Kung system, which develops and accumulates yin chi as well?

The teacher of said Chi Kung system is just interested in healing and developing Neijin and could not answer my question regarding reincarnation.

Frankly, I haven't personally investigated any other neigong schools.  You and others probably know more about all the different schools discussed here in thedaobums.   I haven't heard of a similar school either, whether in Indonesia or in China.

As for the other question, I don't know where you get the information that training in Mopai can free you from reincarnation. Reincarnation is such an abstract concept, who really knows whether it happens or not, let alone whether training in neigong can affect it. Reincarnation is not a topic discussed at the school and its exit or whatever is certainly not the goal of any students.  

Can you guys expand on the info of what Zou Huo Ru Mo is?

How does John Chang define it?

What happens in the body with the qi?

Why is it so dangerous?

 

You say on the one hand that one should stop (or correct one's technique) , but then also that you cannot expect people not to practice.

I thought, the ancestors had consented to non-Chinese (however that is defined) learning levels 1 and 2.

So, if the techniques, that are circling around, often miss a very crucial detail, couldn't you out of compassion for your fellow men and to avoid more and longer suffering give some information what should be corrected?

You guys and  I guess your school could still rest assured that no non-Chinese would ever achieve more than level 2, but suffering of the people who are now following apparently incomplete techniques leading to, as you say, life threatening conditions, can be avoided.

Hi Flyinghigh:

Zou Huo Ru Mo occurs because qi accumulates in incorrect channels or places, leading to unhealthy consequences. Other examples of Zou Hou Ru Mo include seeing "fireflies" during meditation, enlarged necks, random vibrations somewhere in the body. I don't know what the final consequence is for each of these conditions but it can't be good.

 

We believe that neigong can be only taught in person and not through the internet.  In addition, you need a real teacher, who can gauge qi and more importantly can test the students' progress.  There are no signs for completion of level 1 in Mopai (Keeping a journal won't help because meditation efficiency differs between people and can be very very inefficient for some). Thus, even if you have the correct exercises, they are USELESS because without John Chang's supervision and tests, you can't progress beyond level 1.

Well you are correct about the first part, no one in the west is qualified to be a teacher. They cannot gauge their students qi. 

 

However, intense heat, is not false, i personally have had that sign. and so have many others. The sensation of heat is not even isolated to those who train Mo Pai. This tells me that you do not have much training experience. 

You may have intense heat but it has nothing to do with completion of level 1 in Mopai.

Dazyhaze,maybe people don't read my post properly,I have it in writing that somthing was poured into my fuel tank,I do not have mental health problem's.

In Kosta's second book he describes the mark's on his palm;s appearing and doctors monatering him.He got these mark's as he completed level 2.I cannot see how that is some sign of incorrect practice if it was he would have said so in his book.

 

 

 

sabretooth.

That is why you can't treat Kostas' books as your bible!

Jim was the top western student, short of training under Chang himself we cannot hope for better instruction.  Jim's words on the practice survive him. Morepie was one of his first students.  Jim was a real teacher.

Jim couldn't be a real teacher because in Mopai, one can't be a teacher if he can't check the students' progress. Jim made up some signs like intense heat that supposedly show completion of level 1 but those were completely false.  No Mopai students ever had those "signs".

Neikung,  I spoke with Morepie on skype and he says to tell you that neither he nor Ken will offer assistance to Sabertooth, due to mental health concerns.  I don't think you have to worry about that.

 

As to Morepie not knowing what he is talking about, he claims he was one of Jim's first students starting in 2006.  In my talks with him all he ever does is quote Jim and Kosta to validate what he is saying.   I believe he does indeed know what he is talking about.  Furthermore he has never asked for any compensation at all. 

 

I kindly ask you and your group stop dragging his name through the mud for your own enjoyment.

 

The point that I asked him not to believe is that one can progress in neigong without a real teacher.  There are so many subtleties that can't simply be taught over the net (even through skype). Remember that Jim didn't progress without a teacher.  Putting a web site that encourages people to practice Mopai on their own is irresponsible.

has anyone here achieved level 2 and if so did the marks on your palms appear after you completed level 2 or before,and what health or any benefits have you gained.

 

 

 

                                                            many thanks

 

                                                           sabretooth.

Sabretooth, please do yourself a favor and stop practicing the so called "Mopai" exercises obtained from the web/books.  There are so many mistakes that can really harm you.  It is WISHFUL thinking that one can practice neigong without a real teacher to check in person (i.e. DON'T believe More_pie_guy or  Kenbrace).  In fact, the "sign" of progress in in the palm you have mentioned above is actually a sign of very bad thing. In Chinese, this is called Zou Huo Ru Mo.  走火入魔。 I am posting this so that hopefully no one gets hurt.

 

I think the root issue behind the reason why Mo Pai causes so much debate, flame wars, etc. is because is defies the ideas, concepts, and teachings of most other (non-sense) systems. Absorbing yin chi ungrounded, making significant progress in a waking state, etc. are taught in most systems that I know of. Mo Pai says that these teachings are untrue. So basically the thousands of people practicing these useless or almost useless systems attack these claims and vise versa. Most systems agree on key points. Mo Pai is one of the few that disagree with the crowd. This is why it stands out as an odd ball and causes so much controversy.

I can't help to interject here. The reason there are so many controversies, in my opinion, is because you, MPG and a few folks, who only "learned" a few basic things on Mopai from Jim, claimed you know it all. You took another steps and said that no other systems are worthwhile. If John Chang said that, people may stop and ponder. However, JC didn't say that and would have never said so. He knows there are many systems in China and at one time in the past, China was full of high level neigong practioners and most of them weren't Mopai. Clearly there many ways to neigong. Please stop referring to your own understandings as "Mopai's" views.

Levels 1-3 aren't closed and I am sure that doors would open for a level 3 that aren't possible for a level 0 like me at the moment and pretty much everyone else on this forum. Level 3 Mo Pai takes you a heck of a lot farther than most other systems which do nothing period.

Mopai is closed unless you are accepted by John Chang. You may practice level 1 but you won't be able to progress much further than that. Jim made up all the "signs" that supposedly one can feel upon completion of level 1, presumably to sell his book and to start his own school. In reality, there are no signs. Progress can only be measured by a person like John Chang.

I am a supporter of Mo Pai, and I wish to reach out to those of you who disagree with our ways. I realize we have different beliefs, but they are minor compared to all that we all believe in together. I have been watching, and learning, on these boards for quite a while.

 

I have been traveling all over Central America teaching the backpackers and locals the ways of Mo Pai. I have not had much time to post on here, but I do enjoy reading and learning. One of my friends, whom I met a while back, used to post on here as More_Pie_Guy. I am sad to see he is no longer here, and I am even more sad that it is as the result of the small differences between us.... eagerly await your response.

I agree with Aetherous, I am sure John Chang didn't give you permission to teach Mopai. You are doing what "Shifu Lin" Naziri was doing...claiming you are mopai practioner when you are not. Please don't call MPG's or your way as Mopai's way. It is absurb! The real Mopai students respect all other teachings and would never insult other schools.

MPG or KenBrace are definitely not Mopai! They have never met John Chang. They only learned "mopai" practices thr internet via Jim and Kostas' book. There were so many errors and misunderstandings. Neither Kostas nor Jim spoke Indonesian so there are many things that were misunderstood. The way I see it, this forum administrators did absolutely the right thing by banning them,especially after reading all the angry words at MPG's web site. How can such an angry individual practice Mopai?

 

I agree with you that the infrasonic component is not the only part of Qi. I have been studying how negative ions are similar to Qi. My negative ion generator can produce similar effects that Jiang can do with his Qi. Here is a video of me using my negative ion generator:

 

My theory is that Qigong users are storing negative ions in their bodies from the negative ions in nature.

After Jiang's sweet water results come back from the chemistry lab, I will have a better idea of what changes are happening to the water. If I can re-create the energy field around the water, with a machine, we would no longer be dependent on sugars, or artificial sweeteners.

There are many other branches of science that can be drastically changed with Qi research. I am juat a scientist, specializing in electronics engineering, studying Qi on my spare time.

 

Charles Crawford III

Hi Charles,

Are you sure that Jiang is real? Personally, I still have a lot of doubts.

In China, there are numerous reports of charlatan using battery as "qi" to sell socalled wonder Chinese. Here is one:

http://www.dezhoudaily.com/news/dezhou/folder135/2011/04/2011-04-28231227.html

You may want to translate the article with google translator but the picture is clear.

 

Here is another report with many "qigong" masters capable of transmitting electric-like qi and use cup on the back to demonstrate the so called "blocked" qi in the blood. This is an identical feat usually done by Jiang and his students. This article talks about the qigong masters as part of "free" foot massage during a tourist tour in Zhangjiajie but of course they will try to sell you their "wonder" drugs.

http://travel.hsw.cn/system/2012/03/16/051274556.shtml

 

So far, all the demos by Jiang can be explained by static electricity or laser. I still have yet to see a demo that is hard to explain to show a real qi ability (like telekinesis in Jim McMillan's video).

 

Finally, it bothers me a great deal when Zhai Jiang Feng changed his name on his web site to Jiang Feng. For Chinese, last name is so important, you don't suddenly drop your last name and call yourself Dr Jiang when your real name should be Dr. Zhai. This makes me wonder if there is something amiss.

Who is legitimate? Who are the frauds?

 

Wang Liping, Dr. Jiang Feng, and John Chang appear to be authentic in achieving a high level of mastery in their various lineages. David Verdesi is a controversial figure to say the least. Can anyone say with confidence who has real attainment and is worth pursuing as a teacher and mentor? I would love to hear your recommendations about where to start my journey. I hear one can injure themselves pretty severely if they train incorrectly. I'd like to eliminate that option from the get-go.

Don't be so sure about Dr Jiang Feng or Zhai Jiang Feng. Since publication of one of his students in Taiwan Daily, which alleged that Zhai used Tesla Coil to fool the unsuspected victims, I haven't seen any information that would indicate otherwise. His lineage is a suspect, his hunger for big money is a big problem, his so called transfer of qi from bulls (for $) is yet another money grabbing scheme that you should be wary about. In China, there are many stories about so called "qigong" experts that demonstrate similar abilities (using clotted blood from patient's back as indicator of qi blockage, electric-like effects from hands). They have been exposed by authorities as wearing shoes with batteries.

 

 

If there are people here claiming to be from Indonesia, i would suggest that they simply don't know everyone that John and YK taught, since - after all - YK was estranged from John for a long time. Shifu has always maintained that this was his primary teacher.

 

I can tell you unequivocally that this is impossible if your "Shifu Lin" is indeed a high level student as you claimed he is. We know all the advanced students, past or present.

The other damning evidence (that this "Shifu Lin" didn't learn Mopai from the Indonesian school) is that all your described levels and techniques are extremely similar to that of Jim's. Unknown to you (Shifu Lin), there are major and minor differences that make it very clear these aren't from the current Mopai Head. The only logical conclusion is that your original source is Jim and that Lin is not what you said who he is. At any case, it is preposterous to create an "official" Mopai web site. You should take it down!

And this is what you do to a dedicated student for 13 years?

Ya, and you would just calmly walk away smiling. You talk a good story, but I think if you were in my shoes you wouldn't do anything much differently.

I became so upset with John's coward-ness that I wasn't going to allow him or his demons to stop me. I am determined to continue my training and not depend on a man who hasn't the courage to tell me to my face what the problem is and have someone I don't know tell me. That is not a man! And if you support this, you are also not a man. A man gets up from being knocked down and finds a way to climb a mountain. John never helped me over that mountain, which would have been the right thing to do.

You are not a slave for 13 years! As a student, you have lots of qi, learned lots of magic stuff out of this world. Why shouldn't you be grateful for that? It has been explained to you multiple times why John Chang couldn't teach you further and why he didn't deliver the news to you personally through the phone. You should realize that you usually communicated with him through a translator only. May be you should have learned Indonesian or Chinese? Things might have been a lot clearer. What is your point in writing a book and criticizing your ex-teacher again and again? To show people how ungrateful you are and how angry you have been? What would that accomplish? I guess you have a group of followers but you have also created a monster in Naziri/Lin who stabbed you on your back. There have been many people who offered you good advice in this forum (like YM Wong in this thread, your friend Truth Seeker in the Lin/Naziri thread, Drew, Ken whom I quoted in 2011), so I won't repeat them again. At any case, good luck with your cancer. It isn't good for the body to fight any disease, let alone cancer if one is angry and full of hatred all the time. In Chinese, angry is 生气 （Sheng Qi). One can translate that into "generating qi" but in some people's interpretation, Sheng qi results in loss of qi. In your state of mind, all the qi that you have generated in 13 years were probably long gone.

 

 

 

 

Again, Lei Shan Dao is a general term. Jiang Shifu's school is a Shaolin school but this school belongs to Lei Shan Dao category. I really do not know the Chinese characters of six great dao

If it is so general, I think a lot of people would have known about it.

 

Recep Ivedik can probably tell us more, but the Luo Shifu from Bangkok was teaching a Miao Tong Qi Gong and used these characters: 妙通. Google translate will provide this: "Wonderful pass".

What's interesting is that if I recall correctly the Korea based Shifu-ji was supposed to be the master of Miao Tong. So that leads to the questions whether Luo Shifu has some connection to this Shifuji.

Yang Shen dao is probably the yang spirit as in Dragon gate.

Thank you. That was my original guess. No luck in getting to the bottom of this. I have read many Daoist books related to qigong and neigong but I have never come across 妙通道 or LeiShanDao 雷闪道. No reference in either google or baidu.

Of course, a person named Shifu Luo Kangqi, one of David's masters, does not exist, as everything related with David is a lie and Sean Denty was selling this snakeoil.

You should understand that David lost all his credibility when he misrepresented himself as "Dr. Verdesi" when in fact he has no formal graduate training that he can document (discussed first here in thetaobums). It didn't help when he tried to link many masters he met to Mopai when the connection was not clear. For example, he called Jiang Feng's school as leishan dao when Jiang Feng himself said that he was part of ShaoLin. Most people would agree that Shaolin is Buddhist, not Daoist. When the term Mio Tong Dao first appeared, I have tried to look it up in Chinese Dao books with no avail. However, I was guessing the relevant Chinese characters. Perhaps you can ask your sources what the chinese characters of Miao Tong Dao, Tong Ling Dao, Yang Shen Dao, Xia Mian Dao are. I'd be interested in doing some research to find any reference of these dao schools in Chinese literature.

Jim believes that his faith in God will protect him from these "Demons"....but what about "Shifu Lin" & Co.?

I wouldn't want to be in their shoes when the Mo Pai Spirits find out!!!

These spirits aren't airy-fairies and powerless shadows like the rest...they still have their condensed Yang Chi and CAN BLAST YOUR HEAD OFF if they want to!

You guys are sooooo f*cked!

Note to self: Trying to make a quick dollar with Mo Pai training information: Not the best option if you want to live long!

I so agree with your assessment! How can anyone claim to be in the "Mopai" lineage but disobey the ancestors' wishes?

The truth is that there is no such blanket prohibition in the Mo P'ai. However, a great many of John's students have taught others and charged an honorarium, with his knowledge. Why these semantics are of so much concern to so many people with NO connection to the lineage is really bizarre.

I have no clue where you got this crazy information? From the fictious Shifu Lin I presume? What you said here is completely not true.

No one can know if he passes level 1 or not without being tested (by Shifu John Chang). Jim described in that circulated pdf and his book that there are two signs for passing L1. I don't know how he felt when he passed L1 but the signs don't mean much. Many trained in L1 without any signs whatsoever (like what Chen in this forum said happened to him). There were also students who thought they should have finished L1 but didn't actually pass many many years later. Several mistakes can be found in this pdf file and I wouldn't recommend following them. Neither Jim nor "Shifu Lin" is authorized to teach Mopai (The exercises are useless anyway without Sifu John Chang's tests and guidance). Jim is not part of Mopai anymore as he wrote in his book. As far as "Shifu Lin" is concerned, based on Naziri's description, there is no such person that was/is part of Mopai. Shifu Lin is also making the same mistake as Jim, describing a qigong exercise as L2 (L2 as defined in Magus of Java and defined by Jim himself as a level to condense dantian). May be he bought the information from Jim and then tried to sell them by writing books on amazon? Absolutely insane if you ask me.

..indeed it was my skepticism which directly prompted the infamous "t-shirt burning demo" in 2007 at our first meeting in which I took the shirt off my back and Shifu burned a few holes in it from a distance with his yang qi at an elevation of over 10,000 feet, video of which I believe may have been leaked on this forum for a short time ... trust me, I get it.

 

Yes, I have seen that video and I have to admit that it did look authentic. However, one can still be skeptical and said that someone hiding far away did that using a powerful laser. May be that wasn't possible given where he stood and the place etc. Still, it didn't help the case that the video you referenced in your first post clearly showed a flash of light before a hole appeared in the paper. How did you explain that?

I also don't understand why your Shifu would burn his guests' stomach as shown in his other youtube videos? What was the purpose? I would imagine that the burns would remain and be hurtful for days.

 

..You are not going to find a great deal of references to the "Gengmenpai" name, although they are out there (in Mandarin of course) although a number of people have written it with the wrong character (including the Apple Daily article, if memory serves) which is both amusing and instructive. Shifu is not big on formal names and usually just calls what we do "Yijinjing".

 

If it is not 庚门派, can you tell us the correct Chinese Character? My understanding of Yijinjing（易筋经）is that it is one of the two famous qigong techniques from Shaolin. However, I have never heard that they also cultivate the fusion yin and yang?

1: A disgruntled student who wanted immediate results and subsequently slandered Shifu in an article, then publicly retracted his statements later. Unfortunately publishing retractions is less enticing than publishing defamatory articles.

 

I also remember reading the original article (in Chinese) but couldn't find the retraction in the Taiwan Apple Daily web site. It would be good (like YMWong said) if you can point us to a link to the retraction or a keyword that one should enter into the Apple Daily web site.

I am also curious to what Gengmenpai is. I can't find a reference anywhere in google or baidu. Does Sifu Jiang's training consist of different levels and fusion of yin and yang? David Verdesi called it part of leishantao (thunderpart toism), does your Sifu agree with that characterization since Shaolin is not known to be taoist?

 

Thanks.

arrr yes Jim, who communicated with me a year or two ago because he wants to know about history of Mohism in China. He didn't sound like such a deranged and egoistic person in those emails. It's interesting how someone who doesn't understand Chinese nor his Master's first language, Indonesian, knows about the ancient way. It seems his understanding is that he should get whatever info he wants because that's that ancient way of doing things.

 

You know Jim, in the ancient way of doing, the disciple will devote everything to his Master, not just himself but everything he owns. Flying over to Indonesia once in a while to ply information out of your teacher is not devote. In the ancient way of doing thing, the student has no right to demand the teaching, if the teacher stopped teaching you, that's it and you don't go around and insult him and the ancestors to the first persons you met.

 

Ancestors worship is one of the most important aspect of Chinese culture that I haven't yet known to exist in other cultures, and I believe this is one reason why Chinese have preserved so much ancient knowledge. To insult the ancestor as a demon is an insult to the whole lineage. Jim, you should be glad Mopai people are doing things modern way now, because in the ancient way of doing things, you would have been crushed like a cockroach that you are for insulting Mopai Master and the Ancestors. You should be thankful your teacher and other students are still so kind to you.

Jim, you should read carefully what Ken has to say here. I am sure most Mopai students would agree completely with these statements.

By keeping referring John Chang as Pak John, it is clear that you don't really understand Chinese or Indonesian culture.

It is also absurd for a student to continue demanding lessons, especially after all the hurtful and crazy statements that you have made. As Ken pointed out, by insulting the Mopai ancestors, you have doomed yourself in this lineage. Even IF another Mopai school exists in China (which I personally doubt), why would they take you as a student after reading this book?