theurgy

This is a critical point for all spiritual seekers to understand. So much time,energy and merit is wasted condemning religion when it provides a path to awakening for those who have need of it. Devotion is the Lightning Path. Many seekers today are too devoted to their own egos and do not understand the very basics of inner transformation. It all begins and ends with Virtue. Thank you Taoiseasy. Your wisdom sparkles with the radiance of the midnight sun. You honor us with your clear and direct Teaching. You speak as one who knows through direct experience.

Hi Seth, I am certainly no expert on Taoism but I should say that identification of oneself with a divine being, force, intelligence or energy is a universal practice. I really cannot see how the theory behind invocations/theurgy would differ in Taoism--look at deity yoga practice in Vajrayana for instance. I agree, it would be interesting to get specifics on this. Really it comes down to the hermetic maxim: "You can even become a god if you want for it is possible. Therefore, want and understand and believe and love: then you have become it!"

First of all this has been the most productive thread in many a moon! I try to stay out of most of the fruitless discussions on here but this thread is a great public service. The point that Scott makes above is VERY important to apprehend for the beginning student. The search for meaning and the identification and attachment that comes from thinking in this way can lead to a kind of psychosis in its own right, even without any cultivation practice. Firstly it exacerbates the ego. This can lead to a kind of "cosmic paranoia" which can lead to dark places mentally ESPECIALLY if one is not cultivating virtue. Another issue that I feel it is important to bring up is hallucinogens. Many of us have experimented with them. IME as well as that of thousands of others I have met, it is not wise to combine these with any cultivation practice. Sure, some people SEEM to be doing just fine with them and I can hear them disagreeing already: "what a bummer! The squares don't understand psychedelics man! It's like totally shamanic dude!" Problem is these substances lead one to direct confrontation with the "dweller on the threshold"--the repository for all one's repressed fears. Many don't survive an unprepared encounter with this "entity." Those who do frequently develop a form of PTSD or simply take up drinking, gambling or pornography as a response to the crisis. Look to the survivors of the 60s counterculture for ample examples of this. This is a critical issue in the spiritual community. So many "practitioners" are nothing more than potheads sifting through their repressed childhood fantasies and calling it spiritual. My personal advise is keep your mind and body clear, seek to serve humanity and make every day a victorious effort to evolve spiritually for the benefit of all beings: those born, about to be born, living, dead, human, animal, god or demon and you will avoid "qi deviation" symptoms. My best. +theurgy+

This is why they call you Grandmaster! Many thanks

I don't suppose you'd care to share that recipe with the bums? This builder's mouth is watering at the prospect of anything that sounds as good as "spicy shroom burger" !!!!!

These books were recommended to me by a Hermetic author who praised them greatly: http://www.padmasambhava.org/cart/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=661&osCsid=d1401de09d42c2ece21bd90c295f3a0e I am ordering them myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3mfly62KEY This should help. Good luck young man

I want to add a few points relevant to the topic of Reiki. Reiki works, period. Reiki is a healing modality rooted in the Mind and so of course it works. It works if you Work, or rather, it works if you let It Work. Really every practice works if the Mind is properly engaged. Often we get to arguing about this practice versus that practice but that's all superfluous. The purpose of any practice whether Reiki, Magick, ICP recitations (I had to) is to move the small mind out of the way so the BIG Mind can go to work. Don't be fooled: prayer contains and covers all modalities if practiced sincerely--this depends upon releasing the ego and following the way of the heart. This is the single most neglected practice in modern spirituality. And that's the point I want to make now. In the search for the most "baddass" techniques out there (usually by adolescent males) often it is the simple and direct techniques that are left behind because they don't appeal enough to the ego/machismo. The single greatest obstacle on the Path is spiritual pride--it will put a stop to all progress until one owns up to it and corrects their error. Attitude is important here. Spiritual transformation is not a competitive sport! It can be said that many approach healing modalities from an ego driven perspective--trying to "be somebody" important and set apart from the ignorant masses. True, there are many Reiki "masters" of this persuasion. Yet we realize that maybe even some of them do a lot of good! The question is what are we doing to make this world better? Anything? By the same token, when we judge others based on their practice or engage in an egotistical battle of "my path is better than your path" we are simply bound up in a primal competitive mindset--this is not progress. This is no different than any materialistic conquest and really has its roots in territoriality--in other words, it is no different than chimps fighting over a piece of dirt, albeit spiritually/intellectually. The purpose of our practice should be to become more than we already are, not to perpetuate the same poisonous mind states that keep beings bound to suffering. As it is written in the Corpus Hermeticum: "eternity, the essence of all instills immortality and permanence into matter, so it orders the Cosmos--the body of God--for the creator, the Mind is in everything." We take hold of this power with an open mind and heart even for such things that may be distasteful or "fluffy" to us; even practices like prayer and Reiki.

That's more like it. I can feel the healing power of universal laughter and love! It's as if this thread is working it's magick

Excellent news. May I suggest a meditation topic? When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everybody will respect you. Lao Tzu

So you admit that you are deliberately posting off topic then? Read the subject of this this thread, kid. Didn't I sound cool and dismissive just then? Listen, kid (I feel like I'm from the "streets" when I use that expression) we KNOW that there is more than way to work with the elements--this thread is about a particular Western Ceremonial approach--ok? Is that ok with you? No one is going to force you to eat your peas if you don't want to, kid. Is this thread about you? Your posts are not only disruptive but they read as approval-seeking. There is enough room for everybody on this forum. Why not simply make a thread of your own, kid? Fact is you are on a magic for beginners thread rambling like some banal and far less interesting version of drew hempel and we're supposed to cater to you? Get a grip, kid

MPG--you clearly have no interest in broadening your horizons on this subject. If you did, you would investigate the matter further. Since you continuously parrot the same perspective over and over again, I can only conclude that your purpose here is to troll and to muddy the waters for the sincere seekers reading this thread. The subject of this thread is why WOULD one dare to practice magic? It is not about why one stubborn closed minded fool doesn't have the discipline or courage to look into the matter for himself and therefore WOULD NOT dare to practice it. In other words, this thread is not about YOU. You seem to think that it is and that is most unfortunate. I cannot comment on why someone on such a superior path would need so much attention but it is very telling indeed. I will now help you practice some magic, Taoist style if you will. Take a hard look at your current practice. Not John Chang's, not Lao Tzu's or the promises of greatness exemplified by the Immortals. No. YOUR practice. Take a deep breath and utter the four magic words of power: WHERE ARE THE RESULTS? Be honest. Do you still fly off the handle in the ways you did before? Do people flock around you to bask in the glow of your radiant loving aura? Well do they? My advice to you if you DO decide to proceed further on a path of any stripe is to be as condescending, judgemental and scrutinizing of your Self and your own practices as you are with others. This is powerful magic unto itself. You have brought dishonour on yourself time and again with your words on this forum and have not represented your tradition very well. You are MUCH better than this, or at least you can be. My best to you.

Interesting perspective templetao. There is also an excellent elemental practice described in the book by Mark Stavish mentioned above that is very powerful. Also, in the interest of breadth of coverage, allow me to recommend a vajrayana book that I feel is one of the best on working with the elements that I have ever read. It is easily adapted into one's personal system, whatever it may be: Healing with Form, Energy, and Light - Tenzin Rinpoche

This may be the most outright ridiculous statement I have yet read on TB. I cannot tell whether you are deliberately trying to incite or if you are truly declaring your ignorance on the subject (and ignorance it truly is). Here's a list of names. I leave it to your own ingenium to determine if the following people "produced nothing meaningful" or "wasted their time" : Heraclitus, Iamblichus, Pythagoras of Samos, Plato, Ptolemy, Albertus Magnus, Nicolas Flamel, Roger Bacon, Dante Alighieri, Giordano Bruno, John Dee, Frances Bacon, Marsilio Ficino, Leonardo DaVinci, Paracelsus, Emanuel Swedenborg, Jakob Böhme, Sir Isaac Newton, William Blake, William Butler Yeats, etc. In other words... ...it's time to eat some more humble pie, guy.

To all the nay-sayers and doubters (on an esoteric Taoist forum no less) do not limit yourselves! Those who disbelieve in magic are as common as trash--there's nothing novel about REFUSING to believe in something. Millions of people are doing this each and every day. It doesn't make you a real thinker by refusing to think. This is the age we live in unfortunately. Skepticism and nihilism are all the rage and yet those that parrot such consider themselves free-thinkers. What a joke. When you find yourself rejecting anything out of hand ask yourself: have I reasoned my skepticism out for myself? Or is this a stance that MAY have been indoctrinated into me by the society I was born into? Have I REALLY investigated this subject or am I just too lazy and must therefore simply take a position of feigned wisdom? Those who refuse to entertain a different perspective are very much like an infant screaming "NO!" as a spoonful of milk is brought to their lips. To them I say, taste and see! It is not intelligent nor wise to dismiss ANYTHING without thoroughly researching it and testing it within the laboratory of your Being.

I can vouch for the approach DNB is taking on this thread. The Tree of Life is an indispensable tool for practicing magic. Why is this so? It acts as a "filing cabinet" for ideas allowing the magician to create connections between concepts, symbols, systems (read: energies) and in a depth that would not be possible without it. It acts as a powerful "engine" that propels energy from the subconscious mind (the gateway through which all magic must pass) into the material world. I wholeheartedly endorse "Kabbalah for Health and Wellness" by Mark Stavish as the best all-around non-dogmatic introduction to kabbalah for those wishing to practice magic.

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Seth--Indeed. Ironically I wouldn't be where I am today without Chaos Magick! This is why I say that if CM resonates with anyone very strongly one might as well take the plunge. In my personal experience, every magician regardless of the system chosen will obtain initial results as they push their boundaries but this has a limited shelf-life if you will. I have noted that ALL magicians (CMs quite early on) run out of magical juice and then must put in serious WORK to move forward. What could this be? I feel it is the Higher Self unfolding within the practitioner and forcing him/her to choose the path of union with their divine universal consciousness or be crushed under the ever-multiplying desires of the lower-self. IMO every magician will be presented with this critical choice and if they remain attached to magic, disaster awaits. Crowley is one example of a magician who simply REFUSED to cross over onto this path when his time came. That being said, I ask beginners why wait? Why not pay tribute to the divinity inside you daily and start working towards union with your Holy Guardian Angel right now instead of years of dancing around the issue with Sponge Bob rituals and cocaine-powered sigil-launching techniques or group masturbation rituals and other excuses to act out repressed childhood fantasies whilst calling it magic? Sure it's "fun" but if such activities cannot answer the questions: who am I? Where did I come from? and where am I going?--or--if they do not prepare one adequately for one's inevitable transition at the end of one's life (DEATH), then they are a distraction.

Having practiced Chaos Magick extensively for 15 years and within the most "cutting-edge" Order (I.O.T.) I can say that there are some pros and cons to embarking on this path. The major pro is the training you get in trance techniques and you also learn general semantics through working with meta-belief and paradigm-shifting. This is good training for the mind. Helps instill critical thinking and BS-meter. Something that began to bother me about chaos magic in general is that it tends to descend into dilettantism fairly quickly. It is my opinion that one's depth of experience within a paradigm is what will generate the results. As a wise man once said: "if you are looking for water in the desert it is better to dig one deep well than many shallow holes." Paradigm shifting is all well and good but without a deep understanding of each paradigm it becomes nothing more than New Age eclecticism. A Huna ritual one week. A Shamanic Soul retrieval another week. Ad infinitum. To me this sends a confusing message to the subjective mind and waters down the results. MOST chaos magicians I have worked with personally and extensively have plateaued in their Work and are deluding themselves. In short, they like to think of themselves as a powerful Magicians but their lack of discipline, drug addiction, ego, perverted morality tells me otherwise. I wouldn't trust my kids with a vast majority of them. Know what? I used to be the same way myself--until I realized I wasn't growing spiritually. It is also my view that the Chaos Magick egregore is extremely parasitic, and feeds off the magician and will drive the practitioner to a stage where they must "take refuge" (as the Buddhists say) in a Tradition of some sort to expand beyond the plateau. It's amazing how broke and how much bad luck these supposed magical "bad-asses" really have, lol. Now I will contradict myself. I say if you are drawn to Chaos Magick then DO IT! It will take you on a journey and then it should write itself out of a job at which point, you won't need it anymore. OR If I were starting out from scratch, I would look into Joseph Lisiewski's works on magic in general and Old System Magic in particular. IMHO you would be FAR better off starting with this than Chaos Magick if it resonates with you. Good Luck.

Karma is simply action, reaction. You brought this upon yourself. If you read above I said I would *not* suggest that the mods look into the possibility that you (Mrtiger) have multiple accounts. Interestingly enough, another common troll tendency is to cry foul when the spotlight is placed upon the troll's dishonorable methods and call such action a personal attack. Coincidentally, you have just done this as well--see post above. I'm not attacking you--just pointing out the uncanny similarities between your posting methods (vis a vis this entire thread) and trolling--nothing more. I myself am now becoming a troll as I have derailed this most excellent thread as well. No longer. I accept your above post as an admission that you may feel as I do and would like to end this unproductive conversation we have been having. Kind regards to you templetao.

WhiteWolf, Your dilemma is understandable. There is a lot of garbage New Age occultism being written these days and it's difficult to know what to practice. At some point we have to start doing SOMETHING and a path will open up. Stagnation occurs when one waits for the conditions to be perfect before taking action. It seems to me that you owe it to that part of you that is curious about Ritual Magick to test out some methods and see that if you dare to practice magick it works! But don't be fooled: there is nothing easy about this Work. The New Age sells Ritual Magick as some sort of quick-fix when nothing could be further from Truth. it works if YOU work. And work you must. May I ask--do you currently have a personal practice?

I'm just calling it as I see it. Trolls make snarky, passive-agressive comments and direct personal attacks to de-humanize OPs and to derail threads do they not? It's easy to go back and read just who this individual was on this thread. All is fair in love and war. Also, I find it interesting that the two most troll like posters on this thread just posted within 8 minutes of each other at 5 am! Truly brothers in solidarity to the end! Can it be coincidence that you two share the same opinions and early-morning proclivities? You guys have so much in common (perhaps everything). Wink, wink I'm not suggesting that the mods look into the possibility that you (Mrtiger) have multiple accounts. That would be unfair. You deserve better. "I'm just saying..." as the kids are so fond of saying nowadays

The point = DO it and find out

As usual on Taobums, an interesting thread is derailed by the dogma police posing as experts and appealing to the reductionist tendencies of the current age. What a wank-fest. The trolls on this thread really need to pull up their socks. Are you kidding me? There has ALWAYS been oral tradition. Masters have ALWAYS taught using parable and metaphor. Who knows how far back the legend of KIng Arthur really goes? Or what other permutations may have existed only in oral traditions of different cultures even? Who really knows what the intentions of the authors behind them really were? The Arthurian Legends are no different than any other myth with esoteric symbolism. I would have thought this was common knowledge. There's a lot of information encoded in them--I never thought about it from a Daoist perspective before. Am I mad at DNB for coming up with a fresh perspective? Of course not, in fact what he's saying makes perfect sense to me. Before, I was only aware of the LABORATORY alchemy practices encoded in the Arthurian Legends. How do I know about those? Because I PRACTICE the ART. Those who know, know. No wonder you trolls are so uppity--your minds can't grasp concepts that can only be learned through direct experience. Myself, I wouldn't even bother trying to discuss this type of thing on this forum because the keyboard warrior to real practitioner ratio is so absurdly askew, as MANY others have pointed out over numerous threads. Fū Yue great post you nailed it. It's so easy to refute anything from a position of ignorance or deferring to the accepted theories of the Day. Guess what? In the end, Copernicus was right you ingrates. Open your minds. DNB--excellent thread as usual. This forum is WAY more interesting because of all the "hogwash" you've been posting lately