Red Pheonix

Anyone here with experience from a long term retreat?

Impressions? Recommendation for a specific one?

Hi little! I think in general it's about environment and how you choose to observe it. A weekend in the woods by yourself can be great medicine if you choose to experience it that way. Meditation is a big bonus that comes with this sort of thing; it's easier to spend a few days/weeks in meditation if you're out in the wilderness vs being at home.

We have a couple of retreats coming up, if you like the flavor you might want to try a taste The next one is in Tehachapi, California; I've posted some information on it this morning, but the event is just now being planned so it's low on details atm. The only thing that's for sure is the time period, I'll have more information posted soon though.

http://www.qigongmaster.com/events/2011/04/30/april-30th---may-7th-at-ahomm/index.php

If you're looking for something a little more exotic you might want to stay at The Palace of the Celestial Dragon which is Master Zhang's center in China;

http://www.qigongmaster.com/retreatcenters/palaceofthecelestialdragon/index.php

There is information that's missing as I'm revamping the site, but enough for you to get the general idea.

I also enjoy the ECETI ranch, a great place to spend a weekend and connect to other energies! That one's a little closer, if nothing else you will see UFO's there nightly.

It is necessary to disprove potential in our own self before

seeing it in any other personage.

 

Blunt criticisms are a trapping of the ego

 

Ego is self hood bound to duality.

 

What criticisms will be made beyond duality?

Torus693 makes a good point here. This thread says far more about the hearts of it's posters than it does about Max Christensen. Many of the posts here reflect judgement in the hearts of the posters which is bad for several reasons. Judgement indicates that there is desire and a sense of entitlement in the heart. Judgement becomes karma that you carry, a weight that should not be there. If you think that someone has fallen, how can you ever have hope for that person if you have set your heart against them? Of course perhaps there are those who believe that you should set yourself against people like this, but that only serves to darken ones perspective. None of us are perfect, Max is not 'all bad'; it takes different strokes for different folks and imo Max has put together a good cultivation system. That doesn't mean it's the best, but it's not total rubish; certainly some degree of credit is due? In the end I would hope that those of you who follow the Tao are able to segregate your observations from judgment, even a bad experience can be your teacher if your eyes and heart are open.

In the end we should be the water that pours out for our brothers and sisters, not the lightening that strikes them leaving nothing left to stand. I'm not perfect either and I would hope that my shortcomings would be met with a heart that wants to help me, not destroy me.

I think we need more *huuuugs*

Heres a video clip I found of Lu Zijian, a testament to the benefits of Internal Alchemy imo.

Yeah thank you for contributing, I may have mixed some words up in the OP.

 

I also wasn't really that aware of any other lineages except for through Grandmaster Pei Xirong.

If you check out Lu Zijian on google you'll find a lot of cool info, he's a great living example (118 atm I believe) of Long Men Pai. His life story is quite remarkable, the man can still move too; go go gadget fire dragon!

So, did this teacher explain what exactly he means by that?

Indeed he did, his engrish is pretty good too lol. I simply wanted to illustrate that a westerner should expect to see a variety of responses and reasons, but should not fall short at indoctrination, rather to listen to everyone and find their truth. Theres generally something to learn from it all imo.

It's like a finger pointing to the moon, don't focus on the finger or you'll miss out on all that heavenly glory!

NO. Not even close... ALL of these disciplines move energy through centers, meridians and channels. But in very different ways and for different reasons with different results and sometimes different energies. By asking this question, you are trying to understand a supercomputer by trying to compare it to a game boy.

Yea, what 5ET said... this guy just phones it right home

I came here because this is the only place to get the sacred Mo Pai training manual. It's supposed to be here soon, I'm sooooo stoked! *giggles*

Hi Ken. I know for certain that at least with a former teacher of mine who was a traditional Chinese from China, and who had studied various practices from various teachers in both China and Hong Kong, that he used the terms of qigong and nei gong differently (actually he used terms that sound like 'hay gong' and 'loy gong', if I remember the Cantonese terms and pronunciation correctly, since his main dialect was Cantonese), but when he spoke of nei gong he was referring to very special internal cultivation practices and some of the special abilities that people who practice nei gong can develop. I also know that he practiced a special form of nei gong, as I saw him practicing it on a number of occasions, and it was not what most people would think of when they refer to qigong, but he did not teach that publically. So, at least some native Chinese (he was born in the 1920's or 1930's in China) do make a distinction between nei gong and the more generic qigong term. It does seem though that some Chinese use the term nei gong just to mean internal cultivation in general and even to mean internal strength building in some martial arts traditions, from what I have seen, so it is understandable why there can be a fair bit of confusion about the term and why different people may understand the term differently. Many people will use the term in the way they have heard it used by their teacher or teachers, and I also think it would be a mistake to assume that just because someone is a westerner that they have only learned something from a book. Many in the west have learned from traditional Chinese teachers to some degree or another, either in China or Hong Kong or Taiwan, etc., or in the west from teachers who have taught here in the west.

Both Ken and The Way Is Virtue are illustrating an important point here. I have a Master from Taiwan who's one of the most educated persons I know in Chinese Medicine and Kung Fu; he would say that there's no such thing as Qigong. At the same time I have a Master that has scrolls that his family provided the Imperial family hundreds of years ago, scrolls that illustrate the alchemical process of the Neigong which (at that time) was distinct from the common 'Qigong' (our modern term) practices which existed.

I think in the end, China is a big place and many Masters want to be right. You have to remember this when getting advice. That doesn't make any of the Masters wrong, from their perspective their answers are quite valid and there is something to be learned from all of it if you are open and childlike

Measure Meditation with a book!? I measure mine in days just like Chuck Norris

Hi red phoenix. Would you believe in a neigong that requires no special breathing? And requires no special visualization methods? That's right, none of these components that you mention in your post.

Absolutely Rainbow_Vein! Neigong 'can' utilize any of those items, but Qigong will not utilize them.

Well, I guess in a sense I've "started" my path towards Daoism. I try to read the Tao Te Ching and I've been gobbling up posts hear like Pacman. I guess some ideas on next steps would be helpful. Right now I can't really afford formal TaiChi or Qigong classes. Nor do I really have the time.

 

I've thought about possibly doing my best to copy what I see on youtube and listening to more podcasts. Now I realize in a lot of senses its "my practice". But, a little nudge in the right direction could be very helpful. Thanks fam!

You do live in the same area as myself so I'll let you know when we do classes/workshops out here. Master Zhang does classes when he's in town, half of these guys would cream their pants to be able to learn from a Long Men Pai lineage holder. I also do classes and am making arrangements with a new venue in Richardson if you're able to get out that way. My classes are much more general, we work on important fundamentals... I hope you enjoy posting *buahahahaha*; it's also a great group of loving people. I do teach meditation, but I teach people 'how' to meditate, not 'what'. Basically I break it down to physical relaxation, mental relaxation then meditating; I'll even use NLP in class to help students associate mental anchors with these states (allows you to instantly recall the state). Once you can do that, the next step is dealing with your emotions and starting to discover the desires and attachments that are holding your mind hostage... when you find those you can let them go and take your meditation to a deeper level. Mastering the simple things will yield more results than learning 1000 systems.

Looks like you got a looot of reading to do buddy

What is the difference between neigong and qigong and what's the differences between those two?

 

Do other countries or cultures besides china have them too and what do they call these practices?

 

Someone once said that neigong is no different from prayanama ... what do you all think?

 

Looking forward to learning in this thread..

This is the sort of topic that's going to bring a variety of answers, that's ok though; it's shrouded in ambiguity and besides that it's ok for people to understand things in different ways.

Both Neigong and Qigong are quite ancient. I would consider Dao Yin to be the first form of Qigong, it's precursor if nothing else. Neigong was always kept secret, in ancient times it was either held secretly in lineages or taught to the imperial families. It's really difficult to find truth on these subjects looking back at the last century because of the confusion caused by the Chinese Cultural Revolution. Basically many things were outlawed, the government set out to kill many of the mystical Taoists as well. In the governments effort to control things they did away with and rebranded many things. For instance, the Quanzhen sect of Taoism is now at the forefront and largely dominate in Wudang, however they were given more power by the government while other sects were wiped out, this is because the government thought they would be easier to work with and control. That's not to say that Quanzhen is without merit on their own, it is indeed a wonderful sect. In the end many things were changed, renamed and hidden in order to survive.

Chi is an ambiguous term that's used often times as an explicit reference. There are many types of Chi and it's described 1000 different ways. Keep that in mind when people are explaining 'their' version of things. That doesn't mean that anyone is right or wrong, it's just good to be mindful of this.

I would describe Qigong as the act of gathering/storing Qi in it's most general sense. This is usually done in a moving form although it can also be done in still forms like posting. Heck, you can go so far as to say that some martial forms are Qigong (if done appropriately). Qigong does not, generally, involve meditation or specific visualizations although it can at times involve the use of sound. Many Kung Fu styles have a Qigong counter component that's created to help develop aspects required for the martial form. For instance White Crane Kung Fu has different Qigong sets where are specifically designed to support White Crane; just as they have their own 5E sets. Some Qigong is also designed to achieve a certain goal or to develop a certain type of Chi, Iron Shirt skill cultivation techniques would be a good example of this.

I would describe Neigong as being similar to Qigong in construct, however very different in that Neigong utilizes special breathing, meditation and visualization methods; these are things that make a distinguishment between the two. In Qigong you might be in a passive mind state, but you aren't doing specific meditations. You might be doing normal Taoist breathing, but you are not doing specific breathings. For the most part you do not visualize in Qigong where Neigong uses visualization to develop certain things. Qigong is generally safe to mix and match, Neigong is not because it's meant to develop a very specific gong and yes you can get very sick if you mix the wrong ones.

My two cents... it's really best to read all of these and take in what is good from each; all of these answers have something to share

*hugs*

Wow, another Dallas person, 2 more and we can start a super secret Taoist club OMG!!! *does the secret mudras*

Welcome aboard paul!

http://www.qigongmaster.com/masterzhang/lineage/longmenpai/index.php

http://www.qigongmaster.com/articles/2003/04/03/fire-dragon-qigong/index.php

 

Late but now.

The Longmen Pai history conncetions and distinction is needed.

 

Q

I'm working to publish more information on that page as well as the other Linages Master Zhang holds. This last weekend I was able to scan a lot of the old scrolls and photos which are in the photos section on the Long Men Pai page. Some items I was not allowed to post, but in time I should be able to do so (most likely several years).

Master Wu was a student of Master Zhang (I've seen him in original class photos). I don't know who the master is that named him as a lineage holder... this is subject to debate unless he can provide that information. By no means am I saying that Master Wu is questionable, but if he is a lineage holder of Long Men Pai then he can show his lineage and name the Master who made him a lineage holder.

If there is anything in particular you think should be published just let me know, I'll take the matter up with Master Zhang and see what we can do We're just now revamping his site and getting the information together. This Apr/May we plan to do a week long retreat in the desert in Cali if anyone is interested... it will be a great opportunity to work closely with Master Zhang

red phoenix you are also welcome to visit if you come this way(kentucky).

baguazhang fun stuff. is red phoenix indicating you do phoenix bgz?

anyways welcome to ttb i see you are already making yourself at home.

Thanks for the invite zerostao, yes this place is feeling pretty homey (thanks to people like yourself).

Red Pheonix is a name given to me because of my open heart and compassion, more related to energy cultivation than the martial perspective.

Yin Fu Bagua was my primary study, I learned from Master Wei-Chen Ni who taught from a very thorough medical perspective. I've also learned many of the general sword forms like the Ba Gua Dao, Dragon Sword and the basic 8 Trigrams with a sword. The sword forms I learned are the longer versions, but aren't explicit to Yin Fu. Currently I'm learning from Master Yuanming Zhang although I'm focusing more on Long Men Pai than the Bagua at the moment; I should have a chance to learn the Mt. Qingcheng Bagua before the year is over.

Mind telling me where the switch is?

*puts on best Steve Irwin/Cartman accent* Sure, what you're gonna wanna do is take your thumb and jam it up your... oh wait... that's for something else!

Ok, for reals; heres a simple technique to start with. Sitting in full lotus (or as close as you can get) is best as it prevents your energy from going lower than your lowest dan tien. Breath slowly and naturally into your lower dan tien, it should expand vs your lungs. Make the sound 'Huo' slowly so that it resonates in this part of your body. In your mind, see a fireball there that you are churning and growing. As you inhale (through your nose), listen to the sound and feel it's beauty... this is the wind that is feeding your fire. As you exhale make the Huo sound. As for your hands, place your palms together as you might imagine a Buddhist sitting.

A simple technique, effective not only in generating heat, but also in developing your lower dan tien. Once you master this, you can move the energy to your kidneys as well so that when you breath your lower dan tien expands as well as your back (where the kidneys are).

give it a shot!

With Tao Te Ching, we can learn to get an careless attitude towards things that normally effects our emotions negatively, reducing stress/anxiety/anger. But it is exactly these emotions that motivate us to achieve "good" and "better" things. This careless/acceptance attitude does bring alot of peace and contentment in your life, making the world your home. But how to get motivated then?

 

When stress has been your main motivation for a lifetime, how become motivated while in peace? Without motivation I feel like I cannot achieve anything. Infact, trying to achieve and trying to care again the stress creeps back in again.

 

This is very paradoxical to me and I don't think I can solve this problem on my own. Hope to get some feedback here.

I think a distinction should be made between stress and pressure. Stress is a bad reaction to pressure. Perspective is what determines our reaction. Humans are reactionary creatures and while we cannot change that, we can change how we see a thing and hence our reaction to it.

A practical example is training mustangs (wild horses). I use the smallest amount of pressure required to get the horse to do what I need. If I use too much pressure I will stress the horse out and it will no longer be able to get the results I need because the horse is not able to process my input in the same way.

Pressure is good for motivation, but stress is a bad reaction to that pressure. It IS good to get to a place where things do not stress you. If you are connected to the Tao and have no concern for even your own physical life, you can handle all of the pressures without being stressed.

Kundalini Tantra goes into the upper chakras if one cultivates. Kundalini is not just fire, because when awakened, generally through fire, Kundalini awakening merely means "uncoiling" in reference to the entire being. Not all people who experience it's awakening experience it from the bottom up. I experienced it from the top down in fact, so I was activating my upper chakra experiences first, and having physical purification later.

 

Kundalini Tantra utilizes all the elements if done right, and opens all the chakras if cultivated past merely the lower chakras.

 

I see a lot of mis-assumptions here. The energy transforms as it raises through the chakras from lower and dense to higher and more refined as the chakras spin and the energy starts flowing upward from downward, then balancing and harmonizing in the heart chakra the higher and lower frequencies.

 

Take care!!

Thanks for the clarifications Vajrahridaya, I've only studied Taoist styles so I know very little about Yoga arts. Chakras are something that I've never worked with as they're not a Taoist concept; I do undertand them from a technical perspective, but it's not like they're ever used in Taoist Kung Fu. My information was given to me by masters who live in China on the Tibet border (Mt Qingcheng), some things get lost in translation although I'm sure there must be some merit to their advice.

Thanks again for the information, I appreciate your correction!

I signed up for Bruce Frantzis' "Bagua Mastery Program" and received my first module last week.

 

Any other members into Bagua here?

 

Best,

Sean

Hey Sean! Bagua is much more sophisticated than other forms, especially in an energy respect. There are 2 Baguas, pre heaven and post heaven. The energy concept is that you are converting your bodies energy from the post heaven state to the pre heaven state. Many schools will teach you the martial side of Bagua, but have no understanding of it's internal implications; these are not to be missed though!

If you're just dabbling for fun then go for it, you're not going to hurt anything. If you want a more proper approach to understanding these arts I would highly suggest starting with Tai Chi. Bagua is a lot to master, Tai Chi will give you a foundation that will make that much easier. Since you are ADHD I would suggest working with arts that will help you bring balance to that. If you cannot empty your mind then none of these forms are going to give you their intended benefit; Yang Cheng Fu wrote some good stuff about this. I don't mean to discourage you, but rather encourage you! You cannot have Tai Chi if you cannot enter Wuji (passive mind state), you most certainly can't benefit from Bagua if you have no Tai Chi. If you start out with base styles like Tai Chi then the Bagua will make a lot more sense to you; learning posture basics is very important with respect to your forms coming out correctly

In the end you should be having fun with what ever you do, Bagua is hands down my favorite!

Thanks for the hug and the intention, fellow Texan! I didn't giggle, but it was nice and relaxing. Bit cold and rainy for a warming nature walk today, but...getting out in nature more would definitely do me some good. Growing up I spent a lot of time running around and playing in the forest, and it's definitely something I miss.

Oh don't let the cold stop ya... just turn on the internal fire Last friday, when it was all ice and cold, Master Zhang was in his backyard, in his undies, melting snow (he stays in Denton at times when he's not traveling... ssssshhh). Go go gadget fire dragon!!!

 

I've never heard of this idea and I've never experienced this myself. How is it fire uses your energy and not water? How is fire your personal energy and not water? Why can one not connect to the fire of all sorts of masters and utilize that as well?

 

Let me disambiguate here; I meant Fire/Water in a more general sense vs a 5E sense. In this perspective Fire would represent your lower energy centers while water would represent your upper energy centers. In a martial context I'm going to use my lower dan tien, or I'll channel energy from the earth through my lower dan tien. In a healing capacity I use the upper energy centers; your golden flower isn't going to open if you're using your lower dan tien to work on someone. This concept represents the duality in Taoist vs Yoga arts. You can activate your lower energy centers without enlightenment, however the upper energy centers require enlightenment. That's why it's easy to turn on your serpent fire, but harder to cultivate your golden flower. When my golden flower opens I know that the healing is meant to be, again it is the beauty of water... it is that perfection in construct the universe so readily illustrates.

As for depleting yourself, I've only had this happen once, then I changed my behavior. I was at a fair and saw 2 elephants, one of which was having a very traumatic time. I felt bad and wanted to connect to him and help him. At this point my lower dan tien was very developed and my upper energy centers were starting to develop. I opened my palm to the elephant and connected, in this state I have a sort of 'vision' through my palm. The elephant stopped his rocking back and forth, he then looked at me and we became entranced. I transfered my calmness to him and his stress faded away... I was very happy to have been able to show him love. For the next 3 days I was so sad and cried often. I asked my master about this and he said I was using the wrong part of myself to help the elephant; it was then that he explained the difference between using fire and water.

I agree. Personally I practice a southern style kung fu in addition to my tai ji, and qigong. I find the three completely support each other, and I tend to pick up things, and learn more than other students who are only focused on one form. It's worth experimenting to see how you can implement the mix.

 

I've also read various teachers doing one form in the morning, and a another at night. Or using one system for their meditative practices, and another for movement. As long as they're not fighting each other you should have no problem. Bruce Frantzis mentions using bagua or tai ji on different days depending on what you're trying to cultivate and how your body feels.

Adept and Robmix are right on! The only danger area is the Neigong. My daily practice involves meditation, Neigong and martial forms. I don't need to practice Qigong explicitly because I practice my martial forms in such a way that I get the same effect. Most Taoist martial forms have an internal side, Bagua is probably the best example of this. It's all in how you practice it though; I've seen people practice Bagua without knowing the medicine side of it which is pretty much pointless. If you practice it the right way you get not only chi cultivation, but you also send the energy to various parts of your body for health. You can also skip all of the movement and do it all in meditation. If I am unable to go outside to do sword forms I simply do it in meditation, the energy moves inside of me just as it would if I were standing up doing the forms; give this a shot next time you're on a plane or somewhere that you need to pass some time The only danger area is doing things that cultivate a certain type of chi or gong; for the most part only Neigong is going to do this.

Hello Red Pheonix

 

You have written a warm introduction and good to have you here

 

Sending you more sunshine and cheers !!

 

cicida

Thanks for the warm greetings and sunshine Cicida, it's a bit snowy here today... I'll take all I can get!

And I bet you have an uncle that knows all about it as well.

I am not surprised at all that you don't know the difference and don't "see" what the big deal is.

I think that what Ya Mu is saying is very important. Kundalini is fire path while Taoist practices are a mixture of both fire and water (to generalize). Kundalini will awaken you, but it will also burn you out without water. That's why Lu Zijian (Long men pai) is 118 years old and the oldest living Kundalini master is??

Healing should NOT be done with fire, but with water. Using fire energy is to use your own energy, doing so can be bad because you transfer your bad things to them and visa versa, plus it will deplete you. Using water does not have these issues. Most Taoist masters will quickly point out that one shouldn't use their own energy to heal for this very reason; many of them would tell a student not to be healing at all with questions like this because it illustrates desire on the students part (desire to be a healer) vs a natural evolution of your cultivation.

My first distance healing incident happened naturally and I was not trying to do it. That's how water works though, it has no intention yet flows exactly where it's supposed to. If you try to purposefully learn new skills you will most likely prevent yourself from attaining them. It's better to simply seek the Tao and the rest will be revealed to you.

We also have to remember that it is not our task to heal everyone. Sometimes people are sick because of their own stupidity, if you heal them then you rob them of their medicine; continue this and you will incur karmic debt (yes I realize that karma is a buddhist concept, but I personally believe in it and can see it on people).

This is just one perspective though, there are many paths and mine isn't the only one or the 'right' one

I have given up my other spiritual practices to follow the Way yet am wondering if it is wise to mix different gongs. I have been practicing different forms and nei gongs to see which resonates with me but am feeling perhaps it is too much chi and want to stay grounded and healthy. Any advice on practicing is greatly appreciated.

When it comes to Neigong you'll most certainly want to stick with 1 path. It IS possible to make yourself very sick from mixing the wrong things, you can even cause yourself permanent damage. To top that off, many masters who would be capable of helping you will not do so because of what you did. Some may consider your sickness 'medicine' that only you can work though; for them to heal you would be to take away your medicine. It's rare that this happens, but when it does happen it's not pretty. Neigong isn't something you should practice without a master unless you've a good understanding of it and are already cultivated. Even when you master 1 path, taking on a new path can put you back to ground zero from a learning perspective.

I don't think this is something that you need to worry about at this point, but I thought I would mention it