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Is this mysogony? If so, mysogony is inherently Taoist, a spirituality where in knowing the differences between male and female is one of the axioms.

 

Yes there are differences in the way we percieved, process, and respond to information. We have different mating strategies, different neurology, and different abilities based on all of our differences.

 

Like I pointed out Buddha could not have had a baby. I don't think that is sexist or unfair to say. It is obvious and so is the answer.asto why he couldn't have a baby.

 

The teaching point of Buddha's that there is no self is important to note here.

 

In a man or a woman there is no self defining what the characteristics of the organism are; in more cases and it is the opposite that is true, that the Characteristics that are the organisms define what the self is.

 

So ability does not belong to a self, it belongs to the characteristics and that is why it is not misogyny to say that certain characteristics provide a different utility than others do.

 

2 hours ago, moment said:

 

How do you know that your enlightened men were "enlightened, and how do you know that you have never met an enlightened woman?

Buddhism, and Taoism themselves are e idence that there have been enlightened men. Without this evidence I would not believe that there were enlightened men.

9 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

You mean, like a woman?

 

You can keep your buddha; the dakinis will dance all the same.

 

No, that is my point entirely. You will never see a woman in as low as a place as it is possible for men to go, or as far as Buddha went as far as positions on the status hierarchy.

 

It goes against the programming ebolution has provided our species with. Women DO NOT choose to have less access to resources by purposely climbing down the status ladder.

 

We have evolved In such a way that women are predisposed to do the opposite.

 

This has been shown by genuine scientific research..

 

This does notean women are less human the men, nor is it even mysogonistic.

 

It just is.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, moment said:

 

Is that enlightened data? 

Data is niether enlightened, nor unenlightened. That is why political ideologies that are formed by popular reason and virtue signaling often clashes with the Dharma which asxwe all know, the Dharma often defies popular reason and trends in thinking of what's right and wrong.

 

Yes, science often goes against what is popular to believe, and what those who are popular want to believe.

3 hours ago, steve said:

This thread almost makes me want to be a moderator again...

Why?

Do you understand? To be one a Buddha you first have to choose to become the lowest status human there is. This goes against the natural tendencies of a woman to achieve status.

 

With status there is greater access to resources so it is not so perplexing that the female of our species that bare the children would naturally desire higher status because in our species status =resources and resources equal security for offspring.

 

Buddha's time the people who where pious and virtuous in a past life were rewarded by reincarnating as wealthy powerful men. Buddha chose to be a beggar which meant he was a bad man in past life.

 

People in Buddha's time who sought to better themselves through sincere devotion to a spiritual path would grow their hair long as an indicator of that status.

 

Buddha shaved his head. As a beggar with a shaved head he was the lowest status male in all of existence and it showed he wasn't going to try to even change that status by devoting himself to spirituality (longhair).

 

That is something only a man is capable of doing on purpose.

First of all there are several documented differences between men and women. Neurological, physiological , and cognitively that are all documented. Men and womens brains are decidedly different and those differences can be seen when examining a brain. There are definitely differences in intellegence. This has been proven and there is no doubt about it in the scientific community, nor anything else I'm saying.

 

All the research and cross cultural anthropological data, which is also supported by data compiled from online dating apps says that women are hegymonous. This means they are always trying to climb the social hierarchy, infact they are basicly hardwired to be that way.

 

Buddha on the other hand was born a prince destined to be King during a time when your position on the caste, or social hierarchy was believe to be determined by practicing virtue and spiritually in past lives.

 

He did something which his Buddhahood was dependent on that a woman would be incapable of due to the inherent tendencies dependent on her design; he cast off all of his status, wealth, and power to become a low status male.

 

Casting off status is something that decidedly goes against everything a woman is designed to do as our species mating strategy. It is absolutely part of womanhood to seek opportunities to achieve more and more status to gain access to resources 

 

This might go against your political ideology, but it is ways like this that biology works. Animal behavior and mating strategies can be observed in any species.

 

These differences would hold a woman back from being a fully awakened Buddha like Gotama, but would not stop them from benefiting from the practice or being able to become very well versed in the religious doctrine.

 

Once there is a religion there is a status structure that a woman can climb and thrive in.

 

But in the sense of what Buddha did, a woman would not be capable, any more than Gotama would be capable of gestating and birthing another human.

 

 

I don't mean to sound like I have a poor opinion of women, I really don't but I've come to realize that evolution has made women different then men for certain reasons and I base this claim on actual data, not on a jaded opinion of the opposite sex.

 Women go with the flow, and with what the collective is doing 10 times out of 10 and have hidden instincts that cause a leaning towards cognitive biases in their perceptions and judgment making.

I have never had any exposure to an enlightened woman. If I had never had any exposure to evidence that there have been enlightened men I would not believe enlightened men exist so along the same lines of thinking I do not believe there have been enlightened women.

 

TBH, from what I do believe about women it would take some convincing to get me to believe in the prospect. In fact it would take some hard peer reviewed research proving that they are even capable of thinking freely and for themselves before I'd believe it.

I had a staph infection for a while that was made worse by taking antibiotics.

 

The so called expert at the hospital swore that the original wound deep in the joint of my finger was an injury sustained by intravaneous drug use.

 

It was not.

 

I was a commercial fisherman at the time and was stuck in the finger with a fishspine. My finger swole to twice the size and felt like a hammer smashed it for a few days by the time I went to the hospital.

 

The skipper of the boat I was fishing on was telling the guy he new for a fact it was a fishing injury and tried to assure the guy I wasnt on drugs. He actually laughed and said that fish spines weren't made out of cellulose which still baffles me to this day; niether is an IV needle made out of cellulose but that doesn't stop it from carrying bacteria deep into the tissue.

 

At any rate they put me on an IV drip that they later told me was the first half of the powerful antibiotic they were giving me and told me I'd have to come back the next day for another run. After I did that they said I'd need to follow up with a oral antibiotics while I recovered from the IV antibiotics.

 

They had cut open the wound and wrenched it out which was probably all they needed to do

 

The whole time I was taking the oral antibiotics I could not help but notice that the wound never stopped draining puss.

 

A week or two after I ran out of the oral antibiotics I started breaking out in boils all over my body which I still have scars from.

 

All over my body, on my spine, my face, all the places that they say you should be worried of you have a bacterial infection due to proximity to the brain and CNS.

 

At one point I could run my hand on my neck and jaw and my beared hair just sloughed off leaving it hairless. I could press my jaw o er by my ear and neck and puss would ooze out of a hole in my chin. I could put a q-tip in one hole and pull it out of another hole.

 

Any placey skin would break from the tiniest of scratches would turn into a festering wound with the flesh eating away. Boils would pop up everywhere 

 

I'd let the boils gett massive and pop them and clean them out and try to keep them clean. They kept coming and coming. I had a morbid fascination with how disgusting and horrific it all was.

 

I lost toenails from boils forming beneath the nail.

 

I had holes in my body that would fill with tiny flies, that I would brush off to get them out and they would pour out for like twenty seconds like tiny bats flying out of a cave.

 

When I would pop a boil I would feel so much relief as muscle tension all around my body suddenly relaxxed and the cool puss ran down my enflamed skin.

 

One night I could not sleep because when I payed in the dark it was agaony. This pain in my foot was so great I had to take a nice and stab onto my foot from the underside to go through the thick skin to Lance a boil that relieved so much tension it felt like a deep tissue massage in my shoulders.

 

At some point I realized in a moment of clarity that I was going to die. The realization got me foccussed Wich pulled me out of a certain mental and energetic state

 

I became super foccussed and determined to beat the infection. I became very present and productive, cleaning and focussing on projects, acting very deliberate about all of my moves.

 

I stopped messing with the boils, stopped popping them, but I showered at least a couple of times a day where I would wash out and over all of the boils and open wounds, but did not pop any.

 

I was washing them before, but I was tweaking out on them with q tips and things. I stopped doing that and simply foccussed my mind.

 

Boils still emerged grew and burst over the next week or two, but less and less and I could tell I had beat it in an instant and now it was just playing itself out. It basicly peaked right after I decided to beat it which was the moment my qi really started flowing.  My own life force kicking in pushed it out and gave it nothing to grab hold of.

 

Everyone told me staph is impossible to beat and I needed antibiotics. Antibiotics wiped out my immune system and the bacteria took over with nothing to fight it off.

 

Now that I beat it inspite of antibiotics I have a powerful immune system and haven't been even slightly sick since then and no wound has shown any sign of even the slightest infection.

 

What I personally,  not as a Taoist think this means, is the psychological archetypes that develop surrounding these conceptualizations and their roles such as mother father , saint and vilian, need to be done away with along with lots of other cultural programming. 

 

When we form these archetypes we do it in ways that if we find ourselves fitting a general description of one of these roles Wwe might actually assume them into our identity. 

 

When a person gets married they often experience this as all these seeds sprouting because the conditions are right and suddenly they are like another person.  They are becoming what they programmed a husband is like and once they have children this happens again as they assume the new role that was stored as data in the form of preconceived ideas that they become when their child is born and suddenly they find themselves acting, and feeling like their dad and understanding their dads perception. 

 

Also holding onto these archetypes can draw you to situations where you might become them, by seeking out counterparts to interact them. 

 

This happens with people forming an image of the "drug addict" in mind.  How they are cut throat and desperate, and the sorts of levels they will sink to much of which is based on drug war propaganda,  but once a person starts doing drugs and can identify with being an addict this preconccieved role is assumed and be ones them. 

 

 

The dammapanda is pretty much about not painting a dark picture of reality because we live the reality by how we perceive it, so that said,  to simplify what I was saying above I believe it's about not holding onto or making images of roles in your mind, not stereotyping or interacting with stereotypes and not profiling or interacting with profiles. 

 

 

 

 

 

Some people in an FB group I'm a member of were saying they use these Apps to help them with meditation,  saying that it's helpful in tem8nding them to focus when they get distracted. 

 

This is missing the point of meditation completely.  You are supposed to be 3xercising the art and skill of soong this yourself from within,  not using something outside of you dictating your inner being. 

 

I wonder what kind of negative effects they ate practicing when doing this?  When I am driving when ever something causes anxiety, stress,  or whatever which can be frequent when driving, I immediately return to my breath and relax everything.  I am training myself to regulate my experience and to return to stillness, and remain calm and relaxed when ever I feel a hint of stress. 

 

If someone becomes accustomed to letting their mind wonder and body tense up until their phone tells them to focus what are they training themselves to do?

 

This is corruption from a materialistic consumer society. 

 

I know people that if you told them the benefits of meditation were something you could buy and swallow for the effects they would pay top dollar for that something as a product;  when you tell them that it is a discipline and a practice that you have to go into naked with no products and do iT all with mind and focus, concentration and discipline,  and that really they have to do it all yourself they don't want to do it.  As consumers we constantly think in terms of products we can buy to meet our challenges for us. 

 

Meditation works so they want to bottle it up and sell it.  There is no indication that what is in the bottle works,  no proof.

Maybe it relaxes a person to listen to the app and calm down but meditation is much more than remaining calm. 

A very well written OP. 

 

Anattman is very important.  The Buddha was enlightened to the doctrine of dependent origination which is an understanding that has many levels,  one of them being that all things are interdependent. 

 

This interdependence is also within the things that the Buddha taught;  because all 5hings are interdependent,  if you remove the teaching of no self from the doctrine the other truths fall apart. 

 

The doctrine of conditioned arising/dependent origination is all a student of Buddhism needs to concern themselves with,  and when it is understood one will understand impermanence,  no-self,  and emptiness.  When a person does not understand no-self they do not understand the rest because an understanding is dependent on interdependent parts. 

 

 

during the Buddha's time in that region people became beggars due to,past life karma.

 

Karma ruled everything to them as in karma dictated who was born rich and who was born poor.

 

Also, in that time spiritual devotees typically grew their hair long.

 

So I think that's why Buddha shaved his head, at least once.

 

total rebellion against the system he lived in.

so we ave 2 or Three selves now? none of which we are born with?

 

that is in huge contrast to the whole conceptualization we call self

 

think about that

 

"that me over there is totally different from this me"

 

self would only be what is no different than one thing in on place. if you are claiming any thing as self, than EVERYTHING out side of that physical position and everything that had any difference would be other

 

if you are claiming that self is in all things, than self would have no form of its own, no actual self so "self" is not only the vastly and extremely wrong term, but also the most vastly and extremely mis leading term because it leads someone to the opposite meaning of what the word actually means so why call what has no self, self?

So when a Muslim gets angry because some one says something that puts Mohomed in an unfavorable light according to an assimilated brief system, that reaction is driven by a true self that is made from that belief system?

 

I'm pretty sure our emotions are triggered by attatchments we make, in other words social programming. 

 

to answer the OP, yes and no. that was craving that led to suffering. you went from appreciating beauty (the senses) to craving (dualistic ego state) and in and as the form of suffering experienced you were ego grasping (I'm shy, not the type to...why can't I be more...)

 

a things is always characterized by the things that are compounded into that being "thing"; suffering in part is "composed" of desire and craving which is suffering is unbarable nd why suffering itself will bare the imprint of the craving and desire that started it

YouTube · F33bs  8:25 Mr Show - Nil's Guitar School/Imminent Death Syndrome Dec 4, 2009

 

The whole thing with the agenda to transform how we view the sexes and the Drs role in determining sex that we are all supposed to believe so that we call transgender people their delusional sex reminds,me of this skit

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I understand and share your concern. I truly wish all people would behave in what I feel to be a rational manner. However, they do not. For example some people want to have horns grafted onto their skulls or have their eyes turned top-to-bottom like a cat. It's crazy to me, but to them it makes sense. Sure, we can ban such actions if we want, but where does it end? Will tattoos be one day be considered insane?

 

As much as it pains me I accept that people are people. I don't agree with them, but I respect their right to choose.

I'm not talking about banning anything or ostricizing anyone, more so just calling it what it is

 

I've aI've already made it clear earlier in this thread that the sense of self and the dependent psyche that a transgender Peron has is both as real and false as mine or yours, and no different then racial disphoria and the amputee thing.

 

Should they be able to have a sex change operation?

 

Absolutely but not on my dime, and I should not have to accept them as being an actual woman with a female anatomy if they do have one. Itdoesn'tactually change their sex. The female reproductive system is fully developed in a female fetus. it already contains all of the eggs it will ever have before she is ever born. At adolescence a female stargazing hormonal changes because of these eggs and the young woman begins to ovulate. She discharges an egg once every lunar cycle, unless it becomes fertilized in her reproductive system where it will grow into another human with the genetic materiel from her, and the male whose sperm  fertilized the egg. That's what a female is; not some guy who likes lipstick other stuff the culture says is strictly for girls, and so he had his penis mutilated and inverted whose been femminized hormonaly and has saline implants collegen injections and plastic surgery.

 

That's what science says about the female anatomy too,iit's not my religious belief .

 

science also says that sex is determined 49 days after conception on the same day abandonment that the pineal gland develops leading,many metaphysics to believe that day 49 of development from conception that the soul enters the body.

 

That last part would be a belief, and one that indicated that the soul has the same sex or gender as the body.

 

not necessarily my belief, but worth mentioning.

 

 

 

that's my whole issue is that there seems to be this agenda to force us all to believe that this is a medical issue, and that physicians can cure it with puberty blockers, hormones and a sexchange and that we should all accommodate this psychosis despite the lack of evidence and despite the existing science that contradicts the ideological agenda.

 

I say that this is more akin to the tattooing and body mutilation that you're referring to ,not a medical condition.

 

If someone wants a sex change they should be able to goto some place like a body piercing parlor get one.

 

Calling this medicine when the science says different and forcing people to accept that men are women and to have to accommodate that psychosis is what i find disturbing.

 

There are body pierces who will slice your penis down the middle and pierce it back together and implant horns or metal studs in your skin, but they are not Dr's practicing medicine.

 

They're people mutilating themselves.

 

 

it doesn't bother me at all really. in practicing diligently to see things clearly and accepting things as they are I've accepted that many things out there  that are really common and believed to be the practice of medicine which are noactually the practice of medicine, in fact some of what passes for medicine is more like what we usually categorize as sorcery when the same things are done in low-tech.

 

the practice of medicine generally starts with a sound, physiologically varifiable DIAGNOSIS, and then the corrective therapy is applied to that diagnosis.

 

Anything short of that is not medicine.

 

if the diagnosis is that the creator messed up and gave a male body to a female mind I'm afraid that does not pass as an actual medical diagnosis.

2 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Slippery slope. What's next? Outlaw plastic surgery. Take away a cosmetic surgeon's license? Where does it end?

 

I personally feel that surgery (of any sort) is a last resort and not to be taken lightly. All options should be made apparent before such a permanent step. But if an adult of sound mind makes a choice that affects their own body then so be it. God bless them. I hope the decision brings them happiness. It is literally none of my business.

There are a lot of plastic surgeons who I would not consider to be operating within the field of medicine, and who I would never refer to as a physician.

 

These are people servicing people who are so obsessed with the image of their appearance that it becomes somewhat of an unrecognized mental illness because they will actually mutilate their actual appearance as a result of their obsession.

 

May be it is recognized as a mental illness,  I don't know but clearly it should be.

 

Some of these medically trained opportunists take advantage of and have built an industry on that mental illness; I don't think of them as Dr.s or physicians.

 

but other reconstructive surgery is definitely in line with the practice of medicine.

 

Is not that fine of a line; medicine is generally the practice of restoring people back to health. 

 

in some, few cases the practice of medicine is to change a birth defected body that is life threatening or impeding on general health, like separating Siamese twins that can't survive r they can't function with out it.

 

 

when your intentionally crippling people which is the opposite of healing or doing nothing more then body or genital mutilation your not a Dr., and your using the medical training and medical institution for the wrong reasons

 

I'm not saying anything should be outlawed, but do we all have to embrace this philosophy and make laws that make it appear as though we all believe that men and women are anatomically the sam?

They should probably start up their own industry and schools that teach plastic construction that are not actual medical schools where Dr s are trained, and should keep out of people's tax money and out of politics altogether as far as making laws that accommodate the delusion of the small percentage of people with any type of trans condition gender or ability.

 

A person that has their limbs amputated by a trained and certified body mutilater should not get disability checks or be able to get to park in the handi-capped zone, and no one should have to endure a 40 hour week at a job they hate that  barely helps them scrape by to pay for drugs and surgeries because some guy who believes he's female wants to trick other people into believing he's a woman, nor should anyone have to teach their children that men can and always have had babies, and that a man is a woman, when the reality is that no matter how much surgery they never actually will be a female, (a cloning experiment would prove that.

 

 

 

 

An interesting fact is that if a transgender who was born male, but who took puberty blockers, female hormones, and who also had implants to make it appear that they have breasts, and had surgery that mutilated their penis so that it more resembled a female reproductive organ in appearance (not in function) than a male reproductive organ were to have their DNA extracted and used to grow an embryo in a lab which was grown into a functioning human, meaning if that post OP transgender person was genetically cloned, the person that was grown in the laboratory would be male, and there is almost a 100% chance that that the cloned male would also identify as being male.

 

That's a fact.

 

Genetic twins are the proof of that fact.

 

How can We be expected to believe that a penis is a birth defect in a man claiming that he should have been born a woman if his genetically identically brother is perfectly happy with his penis and identifying as a male?

 

Why don't genetic twins share genderdysphoria if it is genetic?

 

If it were genetic both twins would suffer the same disphoria EVERY SINGLE TIME.

 

transabled people should be allowed cripple themselves; any Dr. that surgically cripples them, or uses medical knowledge, medical practice, medical technology etc to cripple an able bodied person should lose their liscence to practice medcine, and the power to write any prescriptions for the rest of their life.

 

Any physician who facilitates a transabled person transition to becoming actually disabled should have all certification, titles, and legal passages associated with the practice of medicine stripped from them for life and they should have the right to earn a new degree in medicine permanently revoked.

 

so someone who is able bodied and otherwise healthy wants to become an amputee? We should all be taxed to pay for the surgery? We should all be taxxed so that they can get a disability check for $1,000.00 a month?

 

These people born healthy who've been intentionally mutilated by a "Dr." per there own request, should now be able to park in handicapped parking zones making it even more difficult for genuinely handicapped people to function in society?

 

 

What are they?

 

A couple decades ago the word was that we were at the dawn of a new age, the Age of Information

 

Turns out that it is the Age of deceit and confusion

 

I'm finding that to accept things as they are is to abandon all learning, avoid all news media, anything remotely resembling public relations, and political statements. To accept things as they are is even to disregard medical information and to mistrust your Dr., or you might end up addicted to drugs far worse than good old fashion opium, or end up with some sort of irreversible condition.

 

It means don't trust teachers or the school board or much of what you learn in college.

 

And what about abortion, and vaccination? Can you say that if your getting one of these you are accepting things as they are? Is irradiating measles accepting things as they are? Is it ok to believe that there will be consequences to irradicating measles  and that there could be negative side effects to taking a vaccine even though my Dr., and Wal-Mart say that's crazy?

 

and how does one accept a transgender person for what they are? 

 

I think if religious Buddhist are going to promote the idea of accepting things as they are they should accept that the Buddha did not teach ordination, he taught dropping out.

 

Seems like lots of people are applying that concept, and the "chop fire wood, haul water" as to meaning embracing the world for all its ignorance, and to be another mindless drone living a worldly existence.

 

You can't really be a part of the culture if you accept things as they are because it's all a bunch of BS & lies.

 

When everybody thinks good is good, this is bad.

I have difficulty with most of the sutras due to all kallapas, alpacas, koopa troopas, sand in the galaxy etc, too.

 

The diamond Sutra for instance was provably the most surprising thing I ever read. two paragraphs of teachings stretched out into several chapters.

 

the numbering things is simply to help remind people what it is they're supposed to remember, like the 4 truths, and 8 fold path. if your trying to remember that stuff it's helpful to count on your fingers if you got them all.

 

At this point I would suggest to anyone really interested in Buddha's teaching to read the verses of Nagarjuna, not the sutras. 

 

in fact reading Nagarjunas verses probably gives us a better idea of how Buddha spoke when he was alive.

 

There is also the teaching on te 4 noble truths and the 8 folks path which includes the teaching of consciousness arising/dependent origins of consciousness,  the five heaps and the body not having self etc.

 

There's very little religious mumbo jumbo in either of the texts but lots to contemplate, it's all stuff that expands in the mind.

 

Much better than the sutras if you're actually interested in stuff other than religious crap that might as well be Hinduism with all of its elaboration.

 

I actually find the whole framework used in the sutras as against the Buddha's teaching with all those religious stuff and extreme comparisons.