ion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J87kivkhAoY

Obama now tries to legitimize criminal wrongdoing by citing the "rule of law" as "proof" of principled behavior.

But, the "rule of law" was supposedly just a step up from complete tyrannical rule where every decision was made on the whim of the rulers. This system takes longer to abuse, but also actually carries far more power to abuse (or correct) in the long run..

 

Because that RULE is only as benevolent as the LAW and the LAWMAKERS.

 

And, what happens when your law is made by a bunch of NW0 lawyers and implemented by opaque secret (FISA) courts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3TapLcHJP0

Or h*ll, even the Supreme Court? Who gave a tiny handful of judges the MANDATE to determine RIGHT & WRONG for hundreds of millions of other humans??? Or to ban our communion with NATURE???

 

For example, what gives the US the right to BAN natural substances that have been used for medicine and spiritual growth by indigenous cultures for eons now?

So numerous natural power plants are banned or strictly-controlled here, yet artificial GM0 crops are not only legalized but actively promoted GLOBALLY by the US using tax dollars???

As far as banning natural substances, that was the first big step in the US's attempt at world policing. The war on drugs is not only a war declared on the American people, but it gives the US some over lapping police control in countries all over the world,and gets US interests involved and influencing the politics and political structures of those countries.

Most beer is about 5 or so % alc. Budweiser and that stuff is lower like 3.5 and a good IPA is around 6 to 7%. Kombucha is generally around 0.5% so the math kinda suggest that KT is much lower then even the wateryest beers.

But somepeople get a buzz off of one beer. If you are one of those people then it will take you about 6, 12oz bottles of KT to equal one waterey beer.

i have to beg to differ about the benign effect of the alcohol, i am an extreme lightweight and i get a pretty intense alcohol buzz when i drink one of those "enlightened" kombucha drinks. i used to drink one every morning after doing yoga and i thought i was just getting more relaxed everyday! then i started getting withdrawls when i stopped around that time i got plenty of b vitamins because i ate meat. also i believe lindsay lohan failed a drug test for alcohol and got in trouble because of kombucha. That was before the enlightened brand started putting on their bottle that it contains alcohol, then right after i heard about LL i looked at the bottle and there it was! i had saved an old one and i compared and it was only on the new one

There is lots of stuff in kombucha that could give you a buzzy feeling, just the fact that its cleaning you up and out can give you a clear buzz, it is also caffinated not to mention EVERYthing in it is predigested and thus in a form that your body up-takes it immediately. The caffine and vitamins do not need to be broken down so they go right to the head.

It could be the alcohol though. I cant say that it is not, Im definitely NOT a lightweight, but I have spoken with recovering alcoholics who wouldnt touch anything that packed any kind of buzz or the slightest head change and they feel safe with KT.

is it really that much better? that's cool if it is

 

but a hunch is telling me that you just like it more because of the energy you put into making it, and that it isn't machine bottled and all that. love makes a huge difference in food!

I hear what you are saying at that might be a possability. I feel that way about alot of stuff, but it really seems like the new stuff I have going now has a bit of a more complex body which makes it more of an experience IMO. But then Im wondering if it is the tea that Im using that makes it better.

I tried a brand of kombucha called "Revive" that was pretty rank imo, then another brand that came in a can that was called Kombucha the Wonder Tea, or something which wasn't gross like Revive, but lacked the complexity and body that the new stuff has.

The yogurt however taste like yogurt, maybe even milder and creamier as far as flavor goes. Its firm and does not spill over if I lay the container on its side, but once you stir in some honey or fruit puree or whatever, it turns more fluid and becomes more of a yogurt drink then a food.

The thing about the yogurt though is it really feels like it is doing a better job as far as the benefits of eating yogurt go. Maybe it has more vitality as a culture being that it is wild and new instead of generations old and or laborotory grown. Im thin but in good shape however I often feel bloated and anticipate discomfort when the kids bap into me, but when Im eating the yogurt it really feels like my digestion has improved and I dont get that bloated irritable feeling from being whapped or bapped if Ive had the yogurt within 24 hours prior to the whappings.

Id be more likely to send out yogurt cultures at the moment. I could send out half pints of yogurt in the mail safely and that should be enough to make a gallon of yogurt. The only thing is I would need the postage paid or retuurned.

This is profoundly cool to me. Much respect!

Is this something you are thinking about patenting and testing as a product?

I certainly don't see any reason why you shouldn't share it with your friends and family either way.

Right on, thank you.

Well that is what Im wondering if I should or could do.

As far as sharing it with friends and family I definitely try to but they are not too into it especialy when I tell them that I "made it", they get a little worried that the organisms are going to make them sick. Socially, our culture has an imprinted fear of micro-organisms and fungi. Ive been a mushroom picker since I was a kid and began cultivating fungi several years ago. More recently Ive been learning and applying Korean Natural Farming practices which are centered around the cultivation and employment of micro-organisms (KNF is the taoist way of farming, completely in line with the principles of tao, No Tilling, no weeding do nothing philosophy/ something from nothing according to the inner nature and potentiel of the plants and soil, but is not officially taoist. Although Master Cho, the mind behind the method does make references to the TTC in explaining his method.), so Im not really afraid of them. I spend a lot of my time handling, even taisting unknown micro organisms.

I do have a couple friends that are into it, but my daughter only eats the yogurt. She thinks the drinks are two tart which is what she thought of kombucha also.

My daughter had a Hawiian theme event at her school and having spent some years livving on the islands I brought some ahi poke to the potluck, but my mom told her I was bringing "Roku", so my daughter thought that that is what the drink is called and thought thats what I was bringing.

At anyrate, if the culture has a name it is Roku tea at this point.

i am wondering what the alcohol content is?

becoz if its over 0.5% our friendly govt will consider it an alcoholic beverage,

 

http://www.ttb.gov/f...ucha-faqs.shtml

 

if it were mine, i wouldnt tell the fda or the govt at all,

and i would just trade it among friends,

its kinda hard to ship/mail liquids sometimes too.

 

 

i'd like to try some

I might be able to send you a culture in the not too distant future. I need to work up some extra SCOBY's first. Ill send you a pm when I do.

I've thought about that too, just spreading it around, but Im always broke so I thought that I could maybe have an oppurtunity to make some money with it, but honestly as detrimental as it has been to my life, capitolizing on stuff is not my style so after a while Ill probably just share cultures or something, I dunno...thats why I was asking for opinions.

It actually bothers me that they treat kombucha like an alcoholic beverage because it isn't one. You cant/wont even get a head change from drinking it unless you count the B-vitamin rush. Plenty of recovering alcoholics feel safe drink kombucha who wont even cook with wine. Its about as much of an alcoholic beverage as a slightly over ripe orange or pinapple, and less of an alcoholic beverage then a tincture of vanilla extract.

Never the less Id be interested in knowing the alcohol content, not to mention have it tested to see what sort of organic acids, enzymes, and vitamins are present. Besides the chemical composition, Id also like to know the biological composition.

I live on the redwood coast, nor-cal, in an even more unique micro-environment called the pygmy forest. Id be suprised if some of the organisms in the new beverage were not unique to this particular environment where Im at now.

How would a person get a patent anyway? Anyone know?

Mal (-:

 

There are three separate issues I have with these quotes.

 

Using Walker's -

 

 

 

Re the blue: If there is no such thing as 'other' - not only is there no 'tolerance' there is also no 'goodwill' to extend.

 

 

Re the red section: What is stated reinforces the classic "either/or" mindset that's usually reflected as: No desires, no attachments, no emotions, etc.

 

I'm reminded of the tale of some ancient master who, while drinking his tea, realized the tea cup was his favorite and so he smashed it quickly!! I guess that was his way of not having 'attachments' and the lesson for the reader was to follow suit.

 

My way would be to enjoy the tea cup, enjoy its beauty and delicacy, use it in gratitude, and when it got broken or ceased to exist - as all things do - to sigh a short sigh of natural loss...and then happily move on to either a new cup or go cup-less for a while!

 

 

 

My third issue is with the bolded section.

 

You see, that which has form is equal to that which is without form,

 

Yes, and that which is without form is equal to that which has form. There is simultaneous existence of both the individual and the unboundaried whole. Not "either/or".

 

Because of this, her very existence benefits all things.

 

Her very existence also harms all things. Every action, and non-action, is one of equal creation and destruction. It is not possible to cause no harm; it is not possible to cause no benefit. Such is the way of Tao.

 

 

The way of this Chapter is to eliminate half of what is natural.

 

 

All thoughts welcome.

 

warm regards

If "goodwill" is our natural state, then when there is no "other", in the mind, then "goodwill" will naturaly emulate from such a person who's actions and thoughts are not corrupted by the concept of self and other.

Heaven and earth do not act from (the impulse of) any wish to be

benevolent; they deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt

with. The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent; they

deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with.

Heaven is long-enduring and earth continues long. The reason

why heaven and earth are able to endure and continue thus long is

because they do not live of, or for, themselves. This is how they are

able to continue and endure.

The two quotes above and others indicate that the people, having the nature of tao are naturally what is called "goodwilled".

Re the red section: What is stated reinforces the classic "either/or" mindset that's usually reflected as: No desires, no attachments, no emotions, etc.

 

I'm reminded of the tale of some ancient master who, while drinking his tea, realized the tea cup was his favorite and so he smashed it quickly!! I guess that was his way of not having 'attachments' and the lesson for the reader was to follow suit.

 

My way would be to enjoy the tea cup, enjoy its beauty and delicacy, use it in gratitude, and when it got broken or ceased to exist - as all things do - to sigh a short sigh of natural loss...and then happily move on to either a new cup or go cup-less for a while!

Sounds like he had the attatchment of not having attatchments, yet also that he was attached to tea...loving a cup and so throwing it away is not going to break anyone of being attached, hes just going to need a new cup. Attatchment is an inner phenomenon with nothing to do with the actual cup, the cup didnt do anything to him and wasnt controlling him in anyway.

An example of non-attatcment or dealing with attatchment would be when realizing that "This is my favorite tea cup!" he would've thought, ..."it will make a great pot." then proceeded to fill the cup with soil and plant a seed in it.

The TTC teaches that attatchment can be to an object, "I love my cup" it can have to do with self image I am "a zen guru", it can also have to do with seeing the world of potentiel as a set of objects with specific roles and definitions; attatchment to concepts as though they are real and unchanging, "I am pretty and pretty is a real and actual thing."

So seeing a thing of inexhaustable utility las a tea cup is a form of attatchment unless you see it as a cup while being a cup and see it as a pot when its not being a cup.

Obviously attatchment also goes into emotions and people as well. What is love? Love is attatchment.

Because of this, her very existence benefits all things.

 

Her very existence also harms all things. Every action, and non-action, is one of equal creation and destruction. It is not possible to cause no harm; it is not possible to cause no benefit. Such is the way of Tao.

I believe that it is not possable to cause no benifit; or rather that all things will be made to benifit with the passage of time, but that does not have anything to do with the law of opposites but because that it is the nature of tao to nurture all things, therefore, anything unbenificial will be made to be benificial. I do not believe that a person, like the one being described in the passage who does no-harm, will also be made to do harm by this same faculty.

I believe the passage when saying that she will do no harm is implying that a state of naturalness is without harm. Not in the sense that having the concept of harmlessnes in mind creates the concept of harmfull and places the oppsotite in mind. Realitive terms create their opposites but that is not relative to the passage where it says that she would be harmless or whatever..

When people stray from tao, they create ideas and rituals about benevolence and goodwill, which is in response to the straying from tao resulting in unbenificial/selfish behavior. Therefore, when one like the person in the passage is with tao, their nature is what we call goodwilled etc, but it is naturally so, not part of the contrived world of relative terms and relative actions based on relative concepts.

Hint: Please do not try to translate the superficial meanings of these two characters. It should be interpreted by its intended meaning by the author of the TTC.

 

22

The partial becomes complete; the crooked, straight; the empty,

full; the worn out, new. He whose (desires) are few gets them; he

whose (desires) are many goes astray.

 

Therefore the sage holds in his embrace the one thing (of

humility), and manifests it to all the world. He is free from self-

display, and therefore he shines; from self-assertion, and therefore

he is distinguished; from self-boasting, and therefore his merit is

acknowledged; from self-complacency, and therefore he acquires

superiority. It is because he is thus free from striving that

therefore no one in the world is able to strive with him.

 

That saying of the ancients that 'the partial becomes complete' was

not vainly spoken:--all real completion is comprehended under it.

Its been my thought that the this chapter refers to an occurance in the creative process that is also an observable phenomenon in nature/being, because what happens in the creative process is taos nature and thus the universal nature and so also the nature of mind.

It would fit with the idea that tao can be described as 無 ‘nothingness’; and from this ‘nothingness’ all ‘being’ 有 emerges. This would seem to fit well with Ch 1 and Ch 42 where the metaphysical role of the tao as involved in the cosmology of existence.

But it is not that black and white and I would think that it implies more then just a role in the cosmology of existence, but actually the sole role in the cosmology of existence.

"Non-being creates being or nothingness creates existence" is a vague reference to yin/yang interplay (still as nothingness) which is something like---Yin is fundamental, by itself non-dependent and by itself is stillness. Its "being" is in a state of non-being. Because of its "being", an exact equal though opposite extremity arises, "Yang".

That is the first case of a "thing" both crating an opposite and there by becomming an opposite extremity of something larger. One creates another but they are still both non being in this case.

This state of nonbeing, the interplay of the two polarities, follows the same law that created it, and it's "being" (in a state of non-being)creates it's opposite wich is being, as in existence.

So its an everpresent element of our reality that opposites create eachother.

I would say that beautifulness was first observed and expressed as a shared idea amongst the first humans, but because they made mental fixations, conceptualized, and defined what it was, traits of people, or features of the environment etc that did not have the defining qualities of what everyone agreed was beauty all the sudden appeared to them as ugly.

One thing tao is, is complete, so if something is observed to be, then it could be said to have existance. If it exists, then it exists within tao so it will be made complete so its opposite will come into being, and become just as much of a factor in the cosmology of humanity or the cosmology of form as the "thing" that was originally observed such as beauty being observed, having the effect of ugliness becomming appearent.

It's translation to english is, "Kick Me!".

...sorry

Im not sure if it is a big deal or not, or even what to think about it really, but I seem to have originated a probiotic beverage or two.

It started off with brewing kombucha and Jun (there are rumors that Lao Tzu orginated Jun tea). Then in wondering how these cultures originated I followed an intuitive hunch and tried to start a similar culture and I did. It was back in april.

The original culture, started from scratch/thin-air was started with nothing; it is not a kombucha or jun culture that is 1,000's of years old, it is brand new, drawn into existence from the abyss made from local micro-organisms by me.

The original culture has produced about 4 SCOBYs and is now on its fifth. Two of the SCOBYs are being used to make beverages that are similar incomposition to kombucha and jun. One is made with black tea and cane juice, the other with green tea and honey but yerba matte is something Ive grown them both out on. Another SCOBY is being grown in roobios tea and sugar, and Im going to do the next in roobios and honey.

One other batch, Ive altered a little to favor the lacto-bacteria and that one taste a little different.

The two that are being brewed in the traditional methods (like kombucha and Jun), taste just like kombucha and jun, or quite a bit anyway.

Oh yea, I also now have a wild yogurt made from the same original culture that I started the others from. Its with the wild yogurt whey and some lactose seperate from milk that I fortified the one drink with lacto-bacteria, but it is all the same lacto-bacteria.

So I tried to repeat the experiment to make sure it wasnt a fluke and it appears as though it was not because the experiment had the same results. I may try one more time just to make sure.

I've gotten rid of my jun and kombucha cultures and have been brewing/consuming nothing but my own at this point.

So what Im wondering is can I or should I try to capitolize on these in someway or another? Im really not minded in that direction, really not ever focussed on how to make products and sell them and stuff, but it almost seems like this could be something to sell what with all the other probiotic things on the market, but maybe Im just being naive and arrogant(?), I dunno.

What would you do if you originated a probiotic beverage that tasted like, only better then kombucha/jun?

And it is "better" imo. I can almost not tell if they are different at all, but I do like "mine" better. I even have bought kombucha from the store a couple of times to do a test to see if what I have was really "different" but could not tell if they were fundamentally different, but I did like mine a lot more..it is hard to tell if the major similarity is in that they are tea based beverages.

So what would you do?

I think it's good to make comparisons, because to me, it underscores that there are universal truths. They just have different names, as the rest of my signature says. Not to mention that they are different examples of the same concept, the "in other words" to explain something.

I couldnt agree more. Different people, different cultures taking note on unique obdervations of the same thing/phenomenon.

This thing with snowden is pretty interesting. Hes kind of becomming a hero to everyone on the planet except the US govt. I can just see the guys chuckling to themselves in Hong Kong telling him "Your free to go bra'.".

The US govt has the gall to say that these governments are standing in the way of justice. "Justice"??? Id like to see some justice on this one and the only way to o so would be to speed up the inevidable decline of the US government by shafting all the participants.

The NSA is the worlds hugest waiste of money AND as I said when it first started out, is bound to turn on its own people.

The problem with the patriot act, nsa and homeland security is that once on a course a thing will continue on that course until something of a greater velocity knocks it off course. When we're talking about organizations and things like NSA these things on course, like Tao, will elaborate their charecteristics and div ersify as they issue forth...they will evolve along their path according to their trait, grow, gain power and momentum and since the war on terror was actualy a bs excuse to side step and circumvent the constitution and to give more power to the US govt, it was bound to turn on the American people. Not to exclude the rest of the world but the whole thing in its manifestation was pretty obviously a way to police the rest of the world, it was that I could see that it would turn on us here in the US also.

This isnt even the turning on us though. I'm surprised that everyone is so shocked to hear the NSA was sying on the whole world and us.

When an organization is formed to have a purpose, like the NSA, then that collective, like a being or creature has a nature.

It is the nature of the NSA to spy and control, to imprison and take authority...Once this creature has enough power, by its own nature and in accordance with the law of nature that it will remain on course til something greater knocks it off course, and in accordance with tao it will decide that for our own good and maybe the good of the planet it should sieze total control.

If anything reflects the INGSOC or whatever the totalitarian govt in 1984 was called it is NSA/Homeland security system.

Obama has also signed several executive orders that basicly, in a state of emergency, gives the director of Homeland Security the right to take everything of use be it food fishing gear, guns, generators, fertilizers, building materiels, and medical equiptment (even bandaides and asprin), vehicles, boats and ANYTHING of use from the us people, and the director of Homeland security is the one who gets to define/decide just what exactly defines a state of emergency.

I realize that the 37 practices of a bohdisattva are not Taoist doctine and this is the Taoist discussion thread, but being that the thread starter has ""If you can't see God in all, you can't see God at all."" as their signiture Im going to go ahead and post the thirteenth practice as a paralell to the the expert in chapter 15 of TTC;

 

Without prajna, the five preceding virtues cannot be called 'paramita' (excellent, perfect) and are incapable of leading us to Buddhahood. To have the right view which perceives that the one who acts, the act, and the one for whom we act completely lack inherent existence is a practice of the bodhisattva.

Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream.
Alert, like men aware of danger.
Courteous, like visiting guests.
Yielding, like ice about to melt.
Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.
Hollow, like caves.
Opaque, like muddy pools.

And reiterate my point that you cant give your mind and actions/activities over to randomness as an approach to or an expression of wu wei.

Pranja is wisdom. The thirteenth practice basicly translates to "without wisdom, enlightenment can not be had."

Heres another exert from TTC

He who knows much about others may be learned, but he who understands himself is more intelligent. He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still.

This sort of implies, at least to my understanding that there is more to wu wei then abandoning self discipline, will, self control, focus and all the other faculties of mind over to randomness and chaos.

Once we really start going broke we'll sell our nuclear arsenol. The US is going to become the worlds worst thirld world country within my life time(Im 37).

Why the worlds worst 3rd world country? Because of all our laws and codes that dont allow iust ot build or live in shanties, or drive around in modified vehicles. Many children will be taken away from their families "for their own good" because it is illegal to raise children where you dont live in a modern home. All the laws that were created to "ensure the rights of US citezens are going to backfire on the average person.

You can bet the US govt will go down shooting though. We wont give into poverty that easy, not while we could ensure a position of relative wealth by taking over a country/region that is rich in sought after resources like oil.

I suppose we shouldn't make distinctions about absurd and not absurd, and not absurd or not-not absurd.

It would have best and not best to just say that all those assertions are indistinguishably equal.

This reminded me of the Ch'ung Hsüan ('double mystery') school of Taoism; the idea that not only should we reject the distinction between 'something' and 'nothing' (有 & 無) but we should also reject the distinction between 'not-something' and 'not-nothing' (無有 & 無無).

 

On this understanding the Tao is neither reality nor illusion, not moving nor still; neither having a nature nor not having a nature. All these assertions are equally absurd!

Infants are blank sheets, totally receptive to the most promminent features of their environment which are the people in their lives. Although we may be born with certain tendencies, our one and only survival skill/instinct is to emmulate and become part of the culture we're born into.

Culture is our survival mechanism and we absorb and reflect it as we grow into it. That is why an infant can be born anywhere, Sweden for instance, but if that child were somehow removed from its biological parents and transplanted into a pygmy group in Africa, that child would grow up a pygmy, with a pygmy world view, pygmy body language, and speaking pygmy language. That person would feel more comfertable with its pygmy family and would find the customs of its biological relatives to be foreign and strange.

That child would not transfer any of the Swedish culture it was born from to is adopted culture.

Enculturation is the process where by the culture is transmitted from the culture to its off spring, it is how we learn to speak the "language" and assimilate its customs, likes, preferences, moral code and virtually EVERYTHING we consider to be our selved and what makes us uniquie.

Our psyches are not something we are born with but are 100% programmed starting at the time of birth.

There has not yet been a seat of consciousness within the human brain, a place that can be identified as the reference point to which the human experienced is had; the ego has no biological aspect. It has been discovered that we have a type of specialized neurons that record the process of an event being seen while also firing the neurons to experience the act it is witnessing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

"

A mirror neuron is a neuron that fires both when an animal acts and when the animal observes the same action performed by another.^[1][2][3] Thus, the neuron "mirrors" the behavior of the other, as though the observer were itself acting. Such neurons have been directly observed in primate and other species including birds. In humans, brain activity consistent with that of mirror neurons has been found in the premotor cortex, the supplementary motor area, the primary somatosensory cortex and the inferior parietal cortex."

This is part of how behaviour spreads through a culture from person to person and culture to culture and part how a person assimilates a culture and largely how sin spreads through time space.

I think that most of us have concluded that ego is pretty much the sourcde of all negative behavior.

Because there is no biological ego, and because of our bilogical cultural nature, being that we are born to be components of a whole, I think it is safe to believe that the ego is a developed concept and not a reflection of our nature. Ego may be an inevidable consequence of being born into a culture of egos, or even of being human and sensing as linear form and space, the ultimate self destructive by-product, but because we are not born with one it is possable to never aquire one if you were born into an egoless culture, and in one there would be no sin or negativite behavior.

Because knowing the path is different than walking the path.

I think that not walking the path is a "bigger deal" then walking the path. I believe the natural tendency of a person is to walk the path, and when we did, things were balanced and in a state of perfection. It is that we strayed from the path that is a big deal and has caused all the imbalance that needs to be brought to equilibrium.

From reading the OP Id say that knowing the path is a bigger deal then walking it or being ignorant of it, at least in the mind of the knower. People that know the path tend to make an intellectual mystery out of its simplicity with the purpose of making a big deal out of themselves which results in a tangled mess of not really knowing anything except the details of a mental construct they've fixated on which also places them far from the path wrapped up in the confusing delusions of their own psychosis.

Id say the best example we have of what it means to walk the path is to look at an average member of an indigenous group of the people of the Amazon basin.

Is that a big deal? The tao is simple and unpretentious. It has no image to live up to, no role to fullfill, no pedistal to place itself on. We're born with it.

To make a big deal out of it is to say that the chaos and disorder of current state of things is normal, and that normality and what is natural is out of the ordinary.

Because knowing the path is different than walking the path.

I think that not walking the path is a "bigger deal" then walking the path. I believe the natural tendency of a person is to walk the path, and when we did, things were balanced and in a state of perfection. It is that we strayed from the path that is a big deal and has caused all the imbalance that needs to be brought to equilibrium.

From reading the OP Id say that knowing the path is a bigger deal then walking it or being ignorant of it, at least in the mind of the knower. People that know the path tend to make an intellectual mystery out of its simplicity with the purpose of making a big deal out of themselves which results in a tangled mess of not really knowing anything except the details of a mental construct they've fixated on which also places them far from the path wrapped up in the confusing delusions of their own psychosis.

Id say the best example we have of what it means to walk the path is to look at an average member of an indigenous group of the people of the Amazon basin.

Is that a big deal? The tao is simple and unpretentious. It has no image to live up to, no role to fullfill, no pedistal to place itself on. We're born with it.

To make a big deal out of it is to say that the chaos and disorder of current state of things is normal, and that normality and what is natural is out of the ordinary.

Although it could be argued there not even being one never mind 'things' so what is it that is brought into equalibrium? Good points all the same.

If there is at the most 1, but more realiticly not even 1, then whos doing the arguing with who and whats the point??? I suppose you could argue that the point of arguing is to establish equalibrium, but when egos are involved which they are in every case, then the point of establishing equilibrium by arguing is usually that the arguers like to think the foundation of balance is their point of view.

I should correct my last post and clarify. I said that"The nature of tao is to harmonize and bring to equalibrium" but that is riddled with falseness and wrongness interwoven into the language now that you bring it my attention.

The nature of tao is not to bring things to equalibrium or do anything at all; the nature of tao is stillness and rest, therefore all things are harmonized and brought to equilibrium by the everpresent stillness of tao without anything doing anything...more like nothing doing nothing.

When considering the two that are ones that togeather complete absolutley NOTHING and that the pseudo-existance of that completely nothingness placelessness sprang forth the begining of time and that Tao is unassertive, keep in mind that a reflection of the whole is seen in all its parts, even if they are nonexistance...remember, in speech and in mathmatics two negatives added togeather, placed togeather or multiplied always create a posotive integer.

Existance is a good example of how we can attain something from nothing so long as we have an even number of nothings or negatives to put togeather.

Did you just reinforce my understanding that Tao follows Tzujan?

I sure hopeso!

It could be said that there are 1 tao for sure and at least two that can be pointed out but not specified. Tao is, that is how we are, that is 1 tao. The other is percieved and because of the other one could say that the tao is, because we are.

In a world of disorder/chaos we are wired to percieve order and sequence and hus we can both discern and describe tao2, but tao 2 is subject to our perception of order and sequence so we see it as the path of creation and transmutation...the tao that diverifies as it issues forth...:issues forth from what? A point, the begining? there is no place that existance started because true tao is best described as the principle of infinity.

The complimentary aspects of tao that are being said two be two wholes making a one are not tao, but the initial expresion(s) of tao and the first stage of tao's creating existance by wu wei.

Tao makes itself known to us by showing us a sequence of becoming, that when understood is disregaurded as fact, but held onto as an understanding as the way of Tao, but metaphorical. Why do I say this? Because when an understanding of the way is cultivated, it is understood that everything always is and was and will be. But there is the tao of creation which is both real and metaphor. Real because it describes the path of manifestation, metaphor because nothing, especially the two or threee taos ever started but always have been.

True tao can best be described as a principle only. Non existant as a thing, but very real in principle...it is the principle of infinity.

Tao preexist time, its first expression is nothingness. Tao's second form is the absolutness of the first form. It is two forms of nothing that togeather make complete nothingness. The wo forms are actually three or four.

First form is the principle of infinity expressed as utter and complete stillness and spacelessness. Total nonexistance. If you dont believe in nonexistance then you see it clearly because A-it doesnt exist and B. saying that "it does not exist" refers to its nonexistance. This stage of Tao is "old yin". The second stage is yang. Yang "activates" old yin which becomes new yin or pseudo activity.

This group of tao's are one thing. Like a chord that is streatched tight and spun, then folded in half. Although the tension is all going one direction, the fold creates anscenario where the two halves each hold tension in opposite directions even though they are one chord. When folded and let go the opposing directions of the same tension cause the two halves to wrap and wind around eachother to form a double helix.

The chord is one, the two halves are one and cannot said to be seperate except for the direction of the tension. The act of winding around eachother can not be said to be seperate from the chord or the two haves. Although there are multiple aspects its all one thing and that is tao.

Symetry is one of the myriad creatures. Although the chord is one it can bbe said to have symetry which implies that there are two. Because there was one thing that became two, it could be said that there is also replication, and diversification among otherthings. If the tao of creation is continually looked at from this perspective it could be said that 1 became 2, and 2 begat 3 and the 3 gave birth to the myriad of creatures which also implies that the formless elements of reality, things that are every where but have no form like symetry, reproduction and any other descriptive verb are actually conscious beings...(all things are sentient, even no-things).

Before being, there was a realm of nonbeing and nonexistance, this is the home of true Tao, the sourceless source who dwells selflesy with out self and no intention, from which all things sprang forth without direct intention. The sourceless sources( spirit/principle of infinity) initiial expression was nothing, absolute nothing and in accordance with tao, the tao was non-creating. Its expression was a force that enforced nothingness like a singular law of nature.

When the expression was, then it became self aware, but the defining qualities it was self aware of pointed out it lacked the equivacal force to ensure nothinness from its opposing polarity and so by virtue of infinity(tao) its symetric opposite came into existance and at once nothingness became complete and within its wholeness the myriad creatures came issuing forth and from their interactions came materiel form.

True Tao did nothing and insisted that nothing was all that would ever be done and from that nonassertive act of actlessness the arising of consciousness and existance began to relate.

Tao can be said to have these forms: the form of a principle, the fact of infinity, the second form is second because we are subject to time space and order was infinite nothingness, absolute nonexistance, void ov energy and space, not empty space, absolute lack of dimmension/old yin. The second form of nothing is nothingness by way of absolute energy compacted into a "single point"/yang. The arising of yang in response to the existance of yin as a result of the all encompassing nature of infinity being a "law" to fullfill results in action: action being the apearance of yang in the state/space of eternal old yin, thus nothingness whith its to cooperative halfs is now officialy completed by the pseudo existance of the complementary halves which are actualy wholes/infinities creating one nothingness out of two nothingness. The initial response of the arising of yang in the space of old yin is new yin. New yin is a form of 1 dimmensional activity which generates a pseudo "space" like phenomenon, almost something like a 2-d frame of emptiness. field going outward from the center where yang exists going infintesimily inward. Although the outward going field of new yin is infinitely outward as the result of the infinite inwardness of yang, an exact duplicate of yang appears at the pseudo-or hypothetical edge of yins extension, and from each yang that appeared on the perimeter a new yin surrounds and engulfs it and streatches infinitely outward.

Besides the action and activity there are obsevable phenomenon repeating and spreading through the pseudo one or two dimension of infinity. Symetry, diversification, replication and maybe 9,997 more formless elements of time and space. Every time an act is originated in Taos field of infinite nothingness which by way of wu wei has become a field of action and activity, it both generates a symetry and completley replicates itself and diversifies, with the marriage of replication and diversification thare is change...cange plus diversification replication and symetry originate evolution and tranmutation...when there is an infinite field full of these types of elements having interactions amongst nothingness, a symetric sameness diversifies from nothingness and the first thing is created; created by wu wei the realm of physical existance as a direct byproduct of the taos selflessly existing in nonexistance without an actual self.

Symetry is also opposite as well as sameness. Black is symetric to white and high is to low because in the realm of nonexistance where realative interactions are inspired but have no actuality, only absolute values exist, and so black is indiscernable from white and high is the exact same as low.

The two taos that are complete and must be reflections of tao are not "tao". Tao preexist time, sequence and order. So tao existed before existance. Its emerging and materielizing into forms and functions is also tao.

Tao is not a thing that can be named but the path it has taken can be seen.

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 15

 

The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive.

The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable.

Because it is unfathomable,

All we can do is describe their appearance.

Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream.

Alert, like men aware of danger.

Courteous, like visiting guests.

Yielding, like ice about to melt.

Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.

Hollow, like caves.

Opaque, like muddy pools.

 

Who can wait quietly while the mud settles?

Who can remain still until the moment of action?

Observers of the Tao do not seek fulfilment.

Not seeking fulfillment, they are not swayed by desire for change.

 

 

 

That middle part doesnt sound like thoughtlessness, going with the flow, and or acting impulsively, are things implied when describing the way of tao.

Why would you want to wear this shirt over that shirt? Why would you want to appear a way just because a particular culture finds that that look is suitable. What defines looking good? To a person who is devoted to tao, it is not important and is even a stumbling block to worry about, or try to align your self to a biased nonuniversal view point such as what look looks good. Worrying about looking like a bumb or looking like a dork is not the concerns of a universal being who lives life in accordance with the way.

Nor is concerning yourself with worries about money or being concerned about keeping up with the joneses.

Is there a difference between yes and no?

Is there a difference between good and evil?

Must I fear what others fear? What nonsence!

Other people are contented, enjoying the sacrificial feast of the ox.

In spring some go to the park, and climb the terrace,

But I alone am drifting not knowing where I am.

Like a new-born babe before it learns to smile,

I am alone, without a place to go.

 

 

It is the natural path of anyperson to accept the ways, beliefs, and customs of their culture and to do so without question. This means to accept and integrate the cultures likes, dislikes and preferences starting from the time we are born. It is the "pursuit" of the one on the path with tao, to rid themselves of ideologies and other cultural corruption. Ironicly, the modality by which we assimilate the biases of our culture is an example of becomming/creation by wu wei; it just happens.

If it is a persons "aspiration" to emulate the tao then that person will only exert energy when energy is inputted. A person emulating tao, they will remain still and reflective, they will never exert more energy then is given to them. They will use the power of an offensive thing against that thing and never have used up a drop of energy.

A good example of wu wei is portrayed in certain martial arts and can be seen clearly in Japanese Samarui movies. The old blind master (lack of primary sense=not stimulated by external locus), is never the first to draw his sword but is always in a state of peace. An ego bent on conquering is antagonized by the blind masters reputation and after trying to fire him up with insults with no results, the ego draws his sword. The blind master who has nothing to prove and no intention to fulfill, being receptive merely reflects the action of the one on the assault. Not one against another, but one accomidating the other. One dominated by discontent and with aspirations of being the top most believes that there are two egos and one is fighting the other, he believes that the "other one" must die in order to validate his self image; the other knows they are one, like a reflection on a mirror and so long as the one guy trys to deliver the other to his death, the tao will grant the wish of the asserter (the objective essence of the attackers wish is that the better man win, that the greatest comes out on top, it is his subjective translatioon of the wish that he himself is in the position of the better man but the old man who desires no conflict and has no competition because he aspires to nothing is in accordance with tao and by default fulfils the role of the better man and greater warrior) by granting victory to the humbler of the "two" who was following tao.

Reality was formed by wu wei. The feminine principle whos nature is to be in a state of total rest (nonexistence)and stillness, only comes into action because of the presence of the male principle who is the inverse reflection of the feminine principle and of the same "fabric" but exists as the opposite polarity of the same intansity. Femenine principle is stillness, male principle is action, female principle integrates action and reflects activity, activity is equal to action.

If it had taken energy to make the universe, then there would be a limit to its composition and activity equal to what went into it, yet the activity of the universe is inexaustible because it's fundamental nature is infinite emptiness/infinite negative energy; a field of infinite negative energy compared to anything is a vacuum- If anything came into contact with such a potential vacuum, the negative energy would become active as a vacuum relative to the energy contained in and as the thing (matter/thing being condensed energy) and would become active as a vacuum until the enrgy contained in the matter was depleted, and the vacuum would immediately return to a state of rest. Because the feminine principle is infinitely negative energy, the male principle is infinitely positive. Because the energy of the male is infinite, it cant be depleted, because the energy cant be depleted, the activity can not cease. Just like the activity within a mirror only reflects images and activity so long as they are in front of it, but never takes action or does anything.

Wu wei is the emulation of the feminine principle. Following tao is to remain in and like the femine principle and to only be drawn into activity by way of the principle of wu wei.

I find this misleading:

"When a country is in harmony with the Tao,

the factories make trucks and tractors.

When a country goes counter to the Tao,

warheads are stockpiled outside the cities."

 

 

Disheartening that a person gains notarity and a livving churning out blasphemes. If I had first read this translation instead of the traditional translations out there, I might have become a christian.Someone thought they could rehash TTC by sitching things around using modern termonology but they were wrong. The items arent the same and so it sends a different message.

The above quote is just dualistic nonsense. If factories and trucks and tractors were in accordance with the tao then this would not be true:

"Great accomplishment seems imperfect,

Yet it does not outlive its usefulness.

Great fullness seems empty,

Yet it cannot be exhausted.

Great straightness seems twisted.

Great intelligence seems stupid.

Great elequence seems awkward.

Movement overcomes cold.

Stillness overcomes heat.

Stillness and tranquility set things in order in the universe."

The fact that we have and depend on factories, trucks and tractors is because we, our cunsumer society does not live in accordance with tao. When we percieve that things are lacking and need improving, when we cant see perfection we need trucks, tractor,s and factories to change and impose a concieved point of view onto reality.

When the Tao is present in the universe,

The horses haul manure.

When the Tao is absent from the universe,

War horses are bred outside the city.

 

There is no greater sin than desire,

No greater curse than discontent,

No greater misfortune than wanting something for oneself.

Therefore he who knows that enough is enough will always have enough.

 

 

Tractors trucks and factories mean properity to the guy who forgot to read the bottom paragraph. It is discontent that drives industry.

To me the accurate translation uses physical imagery to describe a mindscape. I honestly believe that the chapter is not about duality but the references to horses, pasture and manure, and what manure is meant to imply, (healthy crops/abundance) are an analogy for a persons temperment and thinking faculty. What a persons mental/inner focus is creates the theme of mind.

When a parson is at piece/content with little, the mind is elevated and capable of deeper thoughts and thinking. When a person is discontent, the thinking faculty of that person is refocussed and acts against humanity in one way or another.