The Way Is Virtue

After reading this comment on YT while reviewing the music I enjoyed listening so much in me teenage years (and still today):

...

Namaste.

I think pretty well everyone feels somewhat that way about the particular music they grew up with.

It seems that when we are younger music may have a stronger impact and influence on us than when we grow older. That impact can stay with us througout our life...

from one of my teachers, Sifu Jenny Lamb:

At this moment in time, what we saw happen in Japan should be a mirror to all of us. How fragile our lives are. No matter how much you possess, how powerful you are or how famous you want to be, everything can be destroyed in the wink of an eye. A catastrophe can happen to anyone at any time. As an individual, we should not let the grief or fear dominate us, but should let it help to liberate us from greed, hatred and delusion. We should learn from the phenomena of nature to restore our spirits with compassion and loving kindness, to share every moment we have with others, whether they are human beings or a life of another kind. We should work together to protect our planet with love and wisdom, and learn to share and live together in peace. May this disaster awaken a resolution to be a better person living in the world and take on our duty to make a great contribution to humanity! May those who lost their lives be reborn into a better world! May purifying our hearts be our primary practice, to illuminate our world!

Sounds like good advice to me. In other words, we should all cultivate dao.

It is said that the 'true' dao cannot be named and it is indescribable and greatly mysterious, but apparently can ultimately be experienced, and it is also said that the dao 'in action' is nameable and describable through observation of its ways, laws, and principles, and many forms (the universe and all within it does follow very definite laws and natural ways, for example). The dao in action is what we think of as 'nature' or natural enfoldment, I believe. By aligining ourself more and more with these natural ways and laws and principles and thus becoming more and more 'in tune' with the dao in action, we open ourself more and more to experiencing 'the great mystery'. As an aside, maybe one way of looking at 'de' might be that the degree to which we are truly in alignment with dao is the degree of de we embody. A high degree of embodiment of de would indicate a high degree of alignment with dao, and lower degree of embodiment of de would indicate a lower degree of alignment with dao, (the natural laws and ways and principles).

It is also said that everything arises from dao and everything returns to dao. I believe this is described as the law of impermanence in Buddhism. Regarding consciousness, I believe various mystics and sages have indicated that consciousness can and does indeed impact the physical world (and everything else) very much. By aligning ourselves more and more with dao we begin to understand this relationship more and more, and therefore continue to 'refine' ourselves accordingly. This can also be thought of as cultivating de.

Of course everything I have written above contains much speculation on my part It is just a description of the current state of an ever evolving (devolving?) picture that I hold in my mind.

.

i wouldn't rule any of these out as being taoist text. these ideas,concepts, realities are explored and explained in these that i mentioned. and also elsewheres.

presently i am looking at the nei-yeh and the jade emperor's mind seal, not sure if they are taoist texts either but i am diggin them.big time.

Hi zerostao. Ok, yes I have seen references in various places as well. Have not previously done much reading in the I Ching. Would you or anyone else happen to know of a decent translation that includes all the main commentaries? Would like to tackle that one of these days.

There you go, that should be enough for now.

Hi Stig. Thanks for the detailed reply. I will read through more carefully later. Some interesting notes in there. Have to get going to work. I have of course seen the references in the Tao Te Ching that you and Marble have mentioned, and I have seen other references here and there in various contexts, so it appears that this is a fairly important concept in taoism and related areas. I have seen it expressed simply as san he yi, or three unite into one, or three are united as one.

Also agree that man is seen as the itermediary between heaven and earth.

Which means that Man can be viewed in that trinity as having more to do with Qi than Jing...interesting.

I suppose our energy body IS important.

Craig

Hi Craig. I have also seen references to man being divided into three layers vertically, with the upper part of the body relating to heaven, the middle part of the body relating to man, and the lower part of the body relating to Earth. Not sure how that is used however.

I want to be Chinese Emperor then.

Why?

Analyse the pictrogramm of King. Three horizontal parallel and each line represent

from above heaven, man , earth. This three lines are connected by a middle line perpendicular line. And the whole pictrogram has many interpretation.

The pictogram can be intpreted so that the emperor is connected to earth(hell)as human

and also with heaven(cosmos). There is also a chinese saying which I can not find maybe some can help me here it is about to "Hold Heaven root deep in hell good Han chinese" to be manly and stand tall.

Practically this would mean one has to rooted and expand into the cosmos.

To be connected with the whole universe. "I am one with universe!"(Well was it the 60th?)

 

Q

Hi Friend. Interesting. I would guess that one could find parallels in many things, and also in many methods and views. This is what I am thinking anyway.

Heaven, Man, Earth.

aka - The three treasures.

Each has it's own three treasures.

 

Heaven

Sun, Moon, Stars

 

Earth

Water, Wind, Fire

 

Man

Jing, Qi, Shen

 

A trinity is a seemingly universal model.

Also agree that man is seen as the itermediary between heaven and earth.

Which means that Man can be viewed in that trinity as having more to do with Qi than Jing...interesting.

I suppose our energy body IS important.

Craig

Hi Craig. Interesting, thanks. Yes, I think there would be many applications to this concept A 'universal' concept. The words blueprint or template come to mind. Ever run across any texts that delve into this more in depth?

Yes - there is correlation between Jing-Qi-Shen with Di-Ren-Tian. It is a broad concept and is also associated with very focused and specific practical methods.

Right, thanks. This is what I have understood as well.

i think i saw earlier where the I ching, the tai chi classics, and bagua poetry

are not considered to be taoist texts.

so , i guess i can't offer anything here.

Ok, I personally wouldn't rule out the I Ching as being a taoist text, although whether one sees it or any other text as taoist or not wouldn't concern me either way. I am more interested here in the concept of heaven man and Earth.

I was shocked! Darn! You are correct. Man is the go-between Earth and Heaven. Where have I read that? It is in the back of my mind right now. I will try to do some research.

I think you might be headed toward Alchemic Taoism which I am ignorant of. But I will tag along as long as I can.

If I find what my mind tells me I have read before I will get back to this.

Have fun!

Hi Marblehead. You have misread me if you think I was trying to put you down in some way. I wasn't. I have not the slightest interest in trying to put someone down or to slight anyone, and there certainly wouldn't be any point in doing so. I was actually just pointing out why I think it is sometimes put in that order, but it really doesn't matter to me either way what the order is. I am interested in the concept behind this. Also, not sure what you mean about 'alchemical taoism' as I didn't mention that. Thanks for the replies though.

It is a very important and fundamental Daoist theme.

One of the exercises in the Daoist meditation system I practice is known as Tian-Ren-Di and involves the unification of the three.

I can't say anything about writings, however - I'm not well read.

Good luck in your search.

Thanks Steve, I am not well read either. It would seem that the tian-ren-di would have correlation to shen-qi-jing and the unification of shen-qi-jing, in that particualr case. I think the concept can be applied much more broadly than this and in other ways as well.

I prefer it be said: Man, Earth, Heaven.

This way it fits in with:

Man follows (models himself after) Earth,

Earth follows Heaven

Heaven follows Tao.

Now, as to man modeling him/herself after Earth, this can be any of the aspects of Earth as well as the various animals on the planet so pretty much although there are limits, the possible choices (of how to act, what to do, etc) are beyond quantification.

Hi Marble. Ok, right. I think it might possibly be expressed as Heaven, Man, Earth (tian ren di) because man stands between heaven and Earth. Either way, I am interested in delving more into the concept behind this, which I believe is an important concept in Taoism in general that is applicable beyond just a strict literal interpretation of the words. For example, in man, a microcosm of the macrocosm, we have shen, qi, and jing. I see an apparent correlation there, concept wise. This concept can be applied in many other ways, I believe. I am hoping someone knows of some texts or commentaries on texts that go into more detail about this concept.

Stigweard said:

"The trinity of Tian, Ren, Di -- Heaven, Man, Earth"

Anyone know of any specific Taoist texts which delve into this concept in any depth? Stig, do any of Ni Hua Ching's books go into detail on this?

Can this be thought of as depicting different functions or forms of tao? After doing some reading from various taoist writings, I get the definite impression that some taoist writings can be read from different perspectives, and thus can seem to be speaking to different things depending on the perspective. The Tao Te Ching, for example, would seem to be of this sort. At face level it seems to be a basic philosophy of life, but if one takes a different perspective, requiring deriving meanings from within meanings, it seems to speak to something quite different. Perhaps within this second 'layer' of meaning there is yet another layer of meaning, etc. This has conjured up the image of Earth, Man, and Heaven in my mind, hence the interest in delving into this concept a little deeper.

I don't care for this food product myself - I love it but I don't like to eat it - but my stepdaughter gobbles it down and it seems to agree with my pregnant wife. I was at my local Asian market ready to buy in bulk but I was too bewildered by the selection. Any Taoist rice connoisseurs out there?

I think the Chinese mainly use long grain white rice with their meals, but there are many different brands available. I'm not too fussy so I usually don't worry about the brand, but it might be a good idea to try a few different brands by buying in smaller amounts if possible at first until you find a brand that you really like, and then you can buy in bulk. Someone could say that such and such a brand is the best but as always with food it is ultimately a matter or personal taste.

Both are correct .

 

In the sense of spiritual stability and unity:

 

In post-heavenly status, it is qi which drives our lung breathes, heart beats, stomach moves..,and plus our fluctuating mind , they are those disturbing factors that bar a stable , united Spirit from emergence ( that is why , in case of emergency, a fire for instance,we are advised to hold our breathing for a while in order to make a sane decision for escape ) . However, along with the deepening of our meditation , to certain point , these differentiated qi in various organs will unit , making our breathing ,heartbeat and thinking stop...therefore all spirits and qi can be united , and the appearance of the Spirit possible .

 

Another sense is that at later stage of our cultivation , after Shen and qi having their intercourse , a spiritual fetus is said to be produced, and the middle part our body will be the place where it is nourished.

 

Keen readers can sense that if we hold a scientific , functional approach to human body , then all these can't be understand ; this is why we emphasize using Taoist unique philosophical terminologies for although having used for 2,000 years , their meanings are quite coherent ,without too many changes ; and, they do describe and explain the process more precisely.

Ok, thanks. I understand that not everything is meant to be taken literally but instead often applies to an abstract concept that doesn't necessarily directly translate to a physical counterpart.

For those that may be wondering, besides being a professor, Louis Komjathy is also a practicing Taoist.

From his website:

"In 2006, he received ordination into the Huashan lineage of Quanzhen Daoism and lived as a visiting Daoist monk in the Daoist monasteries of Laoshan 嶗山 (Mount Lao; near Qingdao, Shandong) and Huashan 華山 (Mount Hua; Huayin, Shaanxi)."

The process of attaining this spiritual ability is simple for it is just a quantitative accumulation to qualitative jump process : we accumulate enough jing and shen , then at certain point ,naturally a totally new Spirit pop up from us ( See Huang Ting Jin : "積精累氣以成真") provided that we do not deliberately intervene , for example, some people chase after stronger feeling of qi...in this process.

 

There are few points I have to add:

 

1) This qualitative jump, in fact, is also a jump from " post-heavenly" to " pre-heavenly" level.

 

2) Thinking that this Spirit will arise from our brain is too simple-minded.It can pop- up from anywhere. Please notice that the Chinese do think that different organs in our body have their respective spirits .

 

3) This process is also a process of internalization, we pull our split spirits from those sensational organs ( eyes, ears, nose..)inwards , together and consolidate them into a united Spirit . Genuine Intention /Earth* arise...

 

* From Taoist/TCM point of view, eyes can see because they get the spirit from liver, ears can hear because they get the spirit from kidney, nose can smell because it gets the spirit from lung...etc , the split spirits correspond to Five Elements; here, they return to Earth . Earth is said to be able to absorb anything just like our stomach : in normal status , whatever we eat, it absorbs and digest .

 

In fact , it seems we can dump everything to earth , including our nuclear waste.

Good information exorcist. Thanks for posting. What you are saying would seem to be consistent with what is described in texts such as the Nei Ye and Qing Jing Jing, that this is a natural process that occurs through the turning of the attention inward to cultivate 'stillness'. I would be interested to hear more about what you mean by the consolodating of the five spirits into the Earth. You said the five spirits (five elements) are consolodated through turning the attention of the senses inward, and then genuine intention (Earth) arises. Is genuine intention associated with the spleen then (Earth element) or is Earth here a reference to one's true 'center' and not necessarily related to the spleen? Can you explain more about the concept of genuine intention?

I wish I had an answer for these words, but I do not.

All is good manitou, my friend. Sometimes I just want to try to externalize some thoughts or ideas to see where it might lead, so I do so. I certainly don't take myself or my thoughts too seriously however. If you think I am talking nonsense then feel free to say so. You certainly won't offend me. If we take all the craziness in this world too seriously all the time we may just end up going over the edge.

Best wishes and thanks for all your comments. It's been interesting...

Interesting points exorcist. Some yogic traditions from the area of India seem to have similar traditions of using qi/prana in the process of spiritual cultivation and refinement, and they also claim to be able to achieve spiritual liberation and some higher abilites that go along with it, so I don't know that this approach is unique to Taoism although there are likely at least some differences. Even within Taoism as a whole there seem to have been different approaches and views.

Regarding the other points others have made, for those that don't allow that we may have a spiritual aspect, then it likely wouldn't make sense to them to worry about anything except trying to make things somewhat better for themself and maybe others as well in this current life in the physical world. For those that do allow that we may have a spiritual aspect, some may believe that what innate abilities and faculties we have within us are quite enough to get us anywhere we need to be and to do anything we need to do without any special action or assistance needed.

I don't think it is realistic to blame the world's problems and wars and such all on organized religion, as I think the underlying problem is really human nature. It doesn't seem to matter what the actual beliefs are, wars and other problems and conflicts still occur just the same. For example, some communist countries that had pretty much banned or downplayed the importance of religious practices have still been involved in various wars or conflicts or strong oppression or persecution against some of their own people or others, etc. Despite the belief system human nature still seems to prevail. Greed, ignorance, egotism, intolerance, the need to attack or dismiss that which differs from our own personal views and beliefs, etc., it all still exists, so I agree with Jetsun's comment on this that we may not be in control as much as we would like to think.

Different traditions provide different ways of dealing with this and although I personally can't say with certainty whether any of them really succeed or not, that is not in and of itself reason to dismiss these traditions out of hand I don't think. Maybe we really do need help in some ways or at least need a tried and proven approach to adopt to really rise above ignorance, but I don't know. At least in these modern times many of us have the freedom to choose how we live our lives and how we view things both mundane and spiritual. Through the trials of life we have to figure out what seems to work for us and what doesn't. If over time we are just spinning our wheels and really not seeing much improvement then maybe we should stop and consider if we might just be missing something after all. With the decline of religion in the West there does appear to be some decline in moral values and more emphasis being put on the individual self, so it seems religion, or at least some sort of spiritual point of view, can have at least some practical value in this world.

It probably doesn't help that there have been various fake masters/gurus/teachers from different traditions or various people who are just out to try to separate people from their money with various gimmicks, as now many people have been turned off by such things and are inclined to be very suspicious now as well. So where does that leave us? I certainly don't have any answers but it does seem that something is still really lacking somehow. Maybe this is just the natural unfolding of the world and everything is at it should be, but still I have to wonder...

I agree with you completely TWIV. Perhaps people are so eager to describe themselves that they pin the Taoist badge to themselves prematurely. Perhaps Western culture is so spiritually malnourished that people grasp for the Taoist banner like a starving man grasping for a scrap of food.

 

I think Livia Kohn provides the most pragmatic view in saying that you have Taoist sympathisers, those who subscribe to the philosophy and may engage in some Taoist practices, and Taoist adherents, those who have both passed through formal initiations and have dedicated their lives to traditional Taoist cultivation.

 

Personally I would say that I am on the cusp due to the fact that I haven't "passed through formal initiations" per se.

 

Oh and manitou, I looove your posts !!

Hi Stig. Sounds like a good way to view things. Everyone has their own specific areas and degree of interest, so I guess one has to take such things into account in discussion forums like this. It will be interesting to see how Taoism continues to evolve and be adapted to the circumstances of the modern world.

Best wishes...

And I'll go one step further. Think in terms of triangulation, a skill which I refer to as shamanic, but every other adept tradition has the vocabularity for the same thing. But for my purposes here and now, I'll call it shamanic.

 

When a discipline is ascended to the point of nothingness; the point of elimination of the 10,000 things is where we all meet. By transcending ego, we can admit that our path is but one of many; some traditions have hard headedness wired into them; they too must transcend that in order to evolve upward. The mere and humble question that binds together in our hearts is the desire to know Why?

 

Once we figure out Why (a left brain pursuit), we then turn our sight inward to Who? (a right brain pursuit). The answer will surprise us.

 

Once this level is achieved, we develop the eyes and ears to see it in others. We see differently the little black dot in the middle of my eye and your eye and even the eye of that insect over there on the wall; we see what that web of awareness, really is. Awareness will always seek awareness.

Hi manitou. I agree with what you are saying, but I really don't think anyone has been implying (here anyway) that there are not different paths or that these different paths necessarily can't have similar or the same goals, and can't produce similar results and understanding. However, it seems to me that different traditions can take quite different approaches and have quite different points of view and even have quite different practices and goals, and so what is contained in one tradition may not always be easily translatable or easily understandable from the point of view of another trandition or culture. I think people are often inclined to make assumptions and value judgements that are based in their own culture and traditions and experience and way of thinking and thus can very easily misunderstand things and may also be inclined to want to dismiss or discard certain aspects of a different tradition as being of little or no value without fully understanding the true purpose and value behind those aspects. In the end talk is just talk and I think what matters more is what brings real meaning and understanding and growth to us and others. We ultimately each have to make our own way and choose what seems right for our self despite what anyone else might have to say or think. Misunderstanding is perhaps in a way a part of the process of growth. Maybe it is inevitable.

I'm only seeing one half of the equation being talked about here.

 

We read tomes. We read them over and over, from different angles. We read other tomes and find that they intersect with what we've already studied, and find that they overlap and say the same things.

 

But what you're not talking about is the Aha! process, the other half of the equation, where Experience is the entity that ties together the thing that you've learned and retained in your left brain, with the new experience where you're able to step outside of yourself in a type of Christ-consciousness and have it hit you between the eyes with a two by four. Aha! Eureka! This is what the old bird was talking about all these years.....it just happened to me! Now I SEE it!

Hi manitou. My comments in this reply are not directed to you personally, so please don't take this personally. I do want to try to clarify where I am coming from though so I am using your comment above as a starting point to do that. I personally don't rule out the intuition process in anything. I also certainly would not not try to discourage anyone from reading the various Taoist or other writings and trying to gain what understanding and insights they can from them. What I have been talking about is where people read some of these texts and then seem to think that they then understand what Taoism is all about and what it isn't all about. I see a big difference between trying to gain whatever insights and ideas and understanding one can from the various texts while still keeping in mind that what one may think they understand could actually be incorrect or only superficial or only part of the picture, and one reading such texts and then assuming one understands much of it correctly and deeply and then to also exptrapolate from there and assume one also pretty much understands the core of Taoism as a whole. To me that is a big difference, but unfortunately the second scenario does not appear to be all that uncommon in the West from what I see. Hence my comments.

I have little doubt that anyone can pick up and read some of these texts and gain at least some value and insight from doing so, but if such a person were to then start calling themself a Taoist and saying they now understand quite well what Taoism is and what it isn't then I'd say they are likely not being very realistic with themself. My response to this is if it were really as straightforward and easy as all that, why would so many Taoists through the centuries have dedicated themself to rigorous practice and study and service throughout their lives? I guess maybe they were all not so bright and insightful as us modern folk?

What a waste that all these poor ignorant people spent their lives in such dedicated practice and service while all we have to do in the modern world is maybe read a few texts, do some qigong and a maybe a few other practices and we already have it all figured out. That is not to say that the practices and concepts necessarily have to be complicated in any way because I don't think they necessarily have to be at all, but the work and dedication that leads one to true understanding (not just the assumptions and fancies of the conscious mind) is real work and requires real dedication and constant self examination and refinement, IMO. Could it be that at least some of the traditional Taoists/Buddhists/Hindus etc. actually have some something real and concrete to contribute if we could just get past some of our own assumptiomns and preconceptions and such? I don't claim to have any definite answers in this regard, but I think it is worth reminding ourselves that maybe we don't have everything quite all figured out yet, and taking some care to not accidentally throw out the baby with the bath water.

Best to everone and keep smiling...

Interesting. I hadn't heard of a supermoon before (I just looked it up). I have sometimes noticed changes in my qigong practice during full moons (energy can feel different in some ways). I have sometimes felt a 'softer' and a somewhat 'more healing' kind of energy inside me around full moons, but that is very subjective of course. It will be interesting to see if there is anything particularly different this time around with the moon being a bit closer to the Earth. I'd be interested to hear other people's personal experiences in this regard as well. I'll have to try to remember to pay attention to this around March 19.

One could easily make the same argument for those reading their religious text in anything but the original language and form -Christian, Judaism, Buddhism, etc.

Hi robmix. I agree. Some texts may be somewhat more straightforward than others depending on the exact circumstances, but possible problems that can apply to any can be translation issues, misunderstandings that can come from cultural differences, misunderstandings that can arise from the different ways of thinking and communicating and writing in ancient times, texts can potentially have been deliberately altered from the original in some ways, potential transcription errors, was the particular text even meant to be a comprehensive description of a system or concepts or was it just a loose collection of some ideas or deliberately constrained to a very narrow topic for a very specific purpose and such, etc. The bottom line I guess is people have to go with what feels right for them personally, (if they live in times or countries where they have the freedom to make their own choices anyway).