Aaron

It's because people start to think they are special, different, superior, inferior. It is obviously misguided when such statements prevail over the foundation. How can it be less than obvious that it is more often than not used as power? All of those statements for power exist within the elaborations, not the prophecies.

 

How you elaborate doesn't really change anything actual. It is only a slight to the foundation. Misinformation is more dominant than most care to believe, until they begin the search for it.

You're poking the bear here. What do you mean by feeling special, different, superior, or inferior? I think this characterizes the vast majority of Westerners who decide to practice Eastern traditions. In fact the people that practice religion, philosophies, and esoteric practices, more often than not, are doing so to feel special and different from the unclean masses. So when I say give up religion and philosophy it's the exact opposite of being special, unique, etc. but rather it is a call to understanding how we are not so special after all. When you realize that you are not the center of the universe then you can begin to understand the true nature of compassion. Compassion is not the act of a special or unique person, but the natural act of one person towards another, that springs forth from your empathetic connection to others.

Religions are for those who need to feel special, giving up religions is necessary to understand how you are not special. Diversity is an illusion, the only thing that allows it to persist is the notion of self evident in the beliefs that cause us to feel separate from each other.

Aaron

What does it mean to live simply?

Now that is a loaded question, if I've ever heard one. I think the problem is that this is a question you should answer for yourself, rather than have others answer for you.

In Taoist terms it would mean, not to acquire material wealth, not to compete with others, to be frugal, and to be compassionate. Now in these modern times, in the materialistic world we live in, this ins't very easy to do. The nice thing is that most teachers, aware that most people are not willing to moderate their consumption, will be happy to approve of their lifestyles, so that the money keeps flowing. So we have "The Tao of Wall Street" and the "The Tao of Poker" which are completely contrary to the nature of Taoism, which is never striving to be first in the world.

I would say again, though, that this is something that each person should decide for themselves. Forget about what you know about simplicity (be done with knowledge) and ask yourself, "what does it mean to live simply?"

Aaron

Actually, it's not taoism, it's laoism.

 

As for taoism not being a lifestyle, what do you make of the way I carry a luopan with me (that's not a book, in case anyone has been wondering), and when I travel I take my calligraphy brushes and an ink stone and a copy of the I Ching and a set of yarrow stalks I made and matured and consecrated myself, and I check the taoist almanach and the lunar calendar before scheduling appointments, and do bazi readings, and make talismans, and make offerings to the ancestors and the Three Pure Ones and Xi Wangmu and Sun Bu-er, and use a peach tree wood sword for spiritual self-defense and bells, fans, gourd bottles, talismanic water to work with environmental qi, and design all my practices around my ming gua and my wuxing layout, and haven't seen a Western doctor since sometime in the last century but own and use scores of TCM books and design my own herbal formulas and dit da jows based on what I've learned, and use guasha and cupping and occasionally gold and emerald elixirs, and practice taijiquan and qigong and taoist alchemy, and wear traditional taoist clothes for this though never in public, and even on the beach trace taoist symbols into the sand more often than not, and a bit of female alchemy and the bedchamber arts, and a bit of form-compass/xuan kong feng shui, and all of this I do because not doing it makes no sense to me anymore,

 

and you say taoism is not a lifestyle?

Laoism and Chuangism are the two main schools of philosophy related to Taoism. You don't need to follow one or the other, but both are considered the basis for current Taoist philosophy. Now traditional Chinese practices, which you seem to be heavily into, are influenced by Taoism, but less so the philosophy, and more the religion, which is drawn from the Chinese mythology, Chinese Medicine, the I-Ching, etc. Now to say these things aren't Taoist, is like saying the pebbles on the river bed aren't part of the river, which is untrue. The river consists of not just the water, but everything that makes up the river; the fish, the seaweed, the mud, and the pebbles.

Now to call this a lifestyle is erroneous too, because people who call something a lifestyle often do so to separate their own practices from others, to compete with others, and that's not the purpose of Taoism (remember we should never strive to be first). Also, what most people misunderstand is that Taoism is very much about learning to become attached to others, not detached, so the practice of Taoism is meant to help integrate us more closely into the natural order of the world around us. So in this way, your practice should not be a lifestyle, or a way of life, but rather a natural way of being. If you have to integrate rituals into your life, then you are forgetting what is said about virtue by both Chuang Tzu and Lao Tzu, that ritual is the lowest form of virtue.

Now Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu both commented on the need to eliminate ritual from one's life. It is really up to you to decide what is ritual and what isn't. What is the difference between "eh" and "oh"? What is the difference between stopping at Starbucks for coffee every morning or ringing a bell for your ancestors? There really isn't, in fact the problem that arises is that you are making your life formulaic, when in fact it should be dynamic. So for me, I try to be aware of those things I do that are ritualistic, that are repeated without purpose, so that I can be more aware of the spontaneous nature of the universe around me.

I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you regarding this. Also this isn't meant to denigrate your beliefs or discourage you from practicing, it's just one man's opinion. I hope you are doing well.

Aaron

I'm curious if anyone felt this, it just missed us.

 

 

 

I haven't been in an earthquake, is it scary, exciting or what?

I was in a few in Washington State. several small ones and the Nisqually Earthquake (which was 10 miles from where I lived) in 2001 which was a 6.8. That one was very scary, but compared to some of the other big quakes around the world, was not so bad. No deaths, tsunamis etc. I would consider Hurricanes to be the scariest, at least when you're near the eye of a class 3+... really awesome power. Tornadoes are very scary too, but don't last very long. Really nature can be terrifying, powerful, and ultimately unbiased.

My rating for terrifying natural phenomena scariest to least scariest would be Hurricane, Tornadoes, Tsunami, Earthquake.

Aaron

Aaron, thats exactly what the dharmic traditions do.

Hello Dwai,

That's the crux of this for me. If one examines Vedanta in depth one begins to understand that the underlying message is to look past what you conceive yourself to be, and examine yourself as you actually are. This is the same message that's presented in Taoism and Buddhism and I would even go so far as to say it's found in the Abrahamic traditions as well, but the inherent problem with religions is that they place more emphasis on other's preconceived notions of the truth, rather than allowing their followers to figure it out for themselves. Religions have a lot invested in keeping people entrenched in dogma, it keeps the begging bowls and donation pans full so that the priests get their dues. In my mind much of this dogma has been distorted and convoluted in an attempt to make sure that people are obedient and follow directions without question.

If we follow things blindly, if we do not ask questions, if we do not question everything, not just from our own subjective experience, but examine it from it's root source, putting aside our own opinions and instead look at it as it actually is, then what we invariably do is learn exactly what is being taught, rather than the actual truth.

It may seem that I'm anti-religion, but that's not it at all, I'm not anti-religion simply because I believe people have the right to decide for themselves what the truth is, what I actually try to do is encourage people to question what the truth is, to feel those warning signs when someone comes and tells them what the absolute truth is. The first thing you should ask yourself when someone says, "this is the truth and if you don't follow it you will never find salvation/enlightenment/an end to suffering/etc. is "why?" If they can't answer this in plain language, without semantics and dogma, then what you have is an answer intrinsically linked to dogma and not objective reality.

Be done with knowledge. Once you are done with knowledge, then you can begin to experience things on an entirely different level.

Aaron

Actually all this book is trying to do is show that the overwhelming need for uniformity (and conformity) in the Western system is incompatible with study of eastern traditions (especially esoterica).

 

 

 

And each is fine in its own context. Taken out of context, we have confusion and contradictions.

 

 

 

Is it? Have you read the book? In fact the book is trying to emphasize that we need to celebrate the differences (which are obvious) and not try to whitewash everything to look the same. It is also calling for mutual respect between various traditions of the world (as opposed to tolerance, which a superior concedes towards an inferior).

 

It is trying to identify the differences between the dharmic and the abrahamic systems (and their approach to spirituality) and it would serve a western seeker well to be aware of these differences (and see if they can truly reconcile their internal beliefs (religious) with an externally implanted system like say Buddhism or Daoism or Vedanta (which aren't that religious))..

 

 

And the other thing it does is flips the field of anthropology in reverse direction (so instead of a western scientist studying a foreign culture via the lens of his framework (anthropology), a native is studying the west).

I'm not inferring so much what the book says, I have no money and I'm bumming a room from a fellow unnamed taobum, so I don't have time to go out and buy it, what I'm saying is in reference to the general tone of the thread.

Again, for me I could care less about the dharmic or abrahamic traditions. I urge people to look past these things and examine the self without any preconceived notion. When one allows themselves to seek truth through a lens, then invariably what they will see will be colored by that lens. It may appear to be the truth, but they will never know if it's the actual appearance of truth or not.

So perhaps the answer doesn't lie in harmonizing the two cultures, but rather in getting rid of both and starting completely from scratch.

Aaron

So then what do you really know about the shocks?

That I get shocked a hell of a lot and I'd like it to stop.

Aaron

I didn't say that. If you wanna look at it from a more mystical perspective, I think the excessive discharge of electricity would be due to inability to control or compress it. First I would suggest eliminating scientific explanations tho.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to infer you were. I was just making a comment about what I saw as the potential evolution of this thread.

Aaron

I just wanted to point out that this topic seems to be a consensus of people that agree that the western view is inferior to the eastern view and that in order for westerners to realize their full potential they must understand how that's wrong and begin to think like Easterners.

This is a common topic on Taoist forums, in fact this is the fourth time in two years I've seen it pop up. The stance I've taken, and still take, is that this is really a matter of intellectual supremacy, one side views their beliefs to be superior and thus they tend to deprecate those practices they see as inferior.

I see nothing inherently wrong with the Western frame of mind, nor with the Eastern frame of mind, especially since there is no such thing as wrong when one investigates these sorts of things. It's like saying an amazonian tribe is superior to american culture, because they have a healthier diet.

What people should be focusing on isn't the differences, but the actual experiences that exist within both cultures, to understand what these mean on a deeper level, but also how these views of self effect one's own self identity. I have no desire to become "eastern", nor do I have any desire to remain "western", rather my goal is to understand on an intimate level the reasons I am who I am, and most importantly who I actually am. I don't think the east or the west have an advantage when it comes to this, (they certainly all suffer from the same ills of society) but rather that the trick is to understand the cultural bias surrounding your own view of self, so that you don't trade one bias for the other.

As for being different, well that's just another way of saying something is wrong with someone else.

Aaron

Not trying to belittle, but this is a good reminder.

 

Actually, noticing that you get static shocks a few times a day, during this time of year...that is very normal.

 

 

 

Touch something that will ground your energy...I remember taking a computer class, and we had to wear grounding wrist bands, which attached to the metal frame of the desktop computers. The trick is to not touch the parts which are sensitive to static electricity. For a laptop, they should all be encased within.

 

If you are really concerned about this, check out "earthing" products.

Hello Scotty,

I understand that it's normal for people to get shocked, but I tend to get shocked very often. I've gotten used to it for the most part, in fact it's not until the last few days when I've gotten shocked touching my keyboard twice that I started to worry. I did notice that the area my finger touches is close to a wire mesh covering the speakers for my laptop, so it could just be that I'm getting shocked when I touch it. I will take measures to ground myself next time just to be certain that it's me and not my computer. It could very well be that I have a short someplace on my laptop, but better safe than sorry. I'd hate to have my computer get fried because of this.

Aaron

 

If you think it is mystical, what sort of evidence led you to that conclusion?

 

First I want reiterate that I'm positive it's not mystical in any sense, in fact if anything it's probably an environmental or biological condition. I'm 99% certain I get static shocks more than other people, because I can be out an about with the same person and get shocked several times when they don't get shocked once. Again I really can't wear watches with batteries, LED watches for instance, because they tend to stop working for me. I normally buy windup watches because of this, even then I get a rash if they have a metal backing, so in most cases I never wear watches or when I find one I can wear I buy a wristband that covers the metal backing.

I wasn't insinuating that I had psychic powers or anything like that, I was just simply stating I get shocked a lot and I have problems with some electrical appliances. If anyone has issues with believing this, that's fine, but please refrain from making this a "you're just saying that 'cause you want to feel special" thread.

Aaron

I've noticed street lights and things going out too. One thing that is fun is if your sheets or blankets are full of static, you can see the sparks in the dark.

 

I used be get zap'd a lot too. I think the insinuation of disillusionment is helpful unless you choose to be defensive. I thought about typing something a long the same lines as JohnC, but there is no need now. In all honesty you must determine what it is, however you choose it, scientifically or mystically, both or neither.

 

One must make many assumptions to determine it is anything beyond science tho, imo. Test to see if you really can control it, in a controlled manner/experiment.

I never claimed to have any control over it, and I don't think it's something that can be controlled, that's just silly. My request was for people who might have had some dietary advice or perhaps advice regarding clothing, practices, etc, that might reduce the incidence of shock.

This is my point though, John could've easily said, "Maybe you're just thinking you get shocked more than other people because you're not aware of how often other people get shocked? It might be more common than you think and the issue is really that you pay more attention to it than other people" rather than his insulting tirade. His choice of course, but it's indicative of his own personal issues.

Aaron

eh, some people are quick to want to ditch the republic, its easier to just let a rumor rip through a crowd and have yell be the vote on it, mob ruledemocratic-like "anarchists" are going to have a hard time reconciling the green grass on the other side with reality on this side just like Progressives.

This makes no sense to me. What are you actually saying here? Are you saying that people are incapable of deciding what's best for themselves, that we need people to decide that for them? If so, who decides?

My personal opinion is that there are a lot of idiots out there, but there are just as many decent people. If society allowed groups to exist and work together based on their own specific beliefs and mores, rather than a consensus of everyone, then what you would find is a world with very little hate and strife, one that worried more about what was happening to them, rather than how others were living their lives.

Aaron

Nope.

 

Not a pot shot, just you trying to make something about you again.

 

I disregarded the rest of your message as it seemed to pertain to that and berating me/validating yourself.

 

John

So you just disregard anything you don't perceive as having value. Well that explains a lot. Get out of here with your passive aggressive bullshit.

Aaron

Aaron

is the static shock stuff going on alot more there recently?

No, it's just I've never gotten shocked touching my laptop before, so I'm worrying I might actually cause harm to my computer.

Aaron

 

Sorry man, your a unique and special snowflake, just like everybody else.

 

John

Hello John,

Man you're really a bit of an ass aren't you? I mean I've told people they were off about something in the past, including you, which I think is the reason you've taken this pot shot at me, but I've never seen you respond to anyone else in this manner before, so I think this has something to do with a personal issue you have with me, rather than an honest reply.

So lets look at this scientifically and objectively, I get painful static shocks about two to four times a day, on dry and humid days it can occur once an hour, which I'm guessing is more often than other people, now unless I get a lot of people that say this is about how often it happens to them I'm going to assume this might not be delusional and egocentric? I'm willing to accept the street lamp thing or even the light bulb thing as being possibly a side effect of perception, but the static electricity thing most certainly isn't.

See what you've done is taken your objective experience and assumed that it is the only experience, that others can't have another experience. You've taken the norm and decided that anyone who describes something that deviates from that norm is delusional or egocentric. You've essentially dictated normal and abnormal behavior, what is acceptable and not acceptable, and dictated your own beliefs, moral dogma, and ideology as being the only acceptable ones others should follow.

Of course this is normal for most people, social indoctrination tells us to be suspicious of those people who claim to be different or don't fall into what we categorize as normal. I think, though, with much practice and personal reflection you might be able to reach a point in your own life where you won't feel the need to attack someone simply because they claim to experience something you don't believe happened or you believe was delusional.

See the problem with your response had nothing to do with whether my experience was authentic or not, but rather your method of response. I'm not sure if you follow any specific practice, but what I might suggest is that compassion and tolerance are the essential foundation of nearly every religion and philosophy known to man and it might behoove you to begin to think about that when you decide to respond to others.

Also sarcasm is the lowest form of discourse, simply because it is not only the most insulting and trite, but it also requires the least amount of mental exercise to perform, it's a lazy man's way of discourse.

I would suggest that you examine your own response and the reason you felt the need to respond the way you did, then maybe work on those issues before you decide to interact with other people who might have questions regarding similar matters. Skepticism is fine, but it's never an excuse to be cruel or insulting to another person.

Aaron

The basic rule for an anarchist society is that the people themselves determine what happens. It doesn't mean there aren't officials or government workers, it just means that the individuals wants and desires are important and reflective of the society as a whole. In other words there would be no senate or congress, it would be like the ancient Greeks, everyone gets together to vote and they decide as a community what to do. So if you have a community with mostly Christians, then their wishes would be reflected.

The real danger with any society is that they attempt to enforce their wills on others, so the trick would be to find a way to enable each individual group to learn to allow others to live as they wish, regardless of their own personal wishes.

Aaron

Throughout my life I've had this issue with electricity. I get static shocks all the time, not just when it's cold and dry. I get them doing the stupidest things, not just opening car doors, but getting silverware, turning off a light switch, picking up tools, etc. I've had this problem for as long as I can remember, it's gotten so bad that I consciously touch door knobs and metal objects with my knuckles first, to try and discharge it, since it's much more painful through my finger tips. I've had other problems with electricity as well, like light bulbs tend to burn out faster around me, especially florescent bulbs, I've actually had them blow out on me twice and on one occasion the bulb actually exploded. I think I mentioned before that I have an odd experience with street lights as well, they will go off as I go under them. I'm not sure what's causing this, but it's finally gotten to the point that I'm getting a shock when I go touch my laptop keyboard and I'm worried I might cause damage to my computer. Anyone got any tips as to how I can reduce the shocks I've been getting?

As an aside, I can't wear electric watches because they tend to go kaput on me, including most watches that use batteries, I tend to buy only windup watches. My mother has this same problem, so it may be hereditary. I'm also highly alergic to metal, the rashes get so bad my skin actually peals away. I got an ulcer on my stomach because I allowed the metal belt buckle to touch my skin over a prolonged period of time. I had to stop wearing an earring because even with gold and silver, my ear kept getting infected to the point I had to go on antibiotics. I'm wondering if the two could be related.

I know, weird, way out topic, but I'm at my wits end regarding finding answers.

Aaron

Just for all us Buddha Bums!

 

 

 

 

 

HAH! The first one was my favorite, then the geek meditation was second. What a riot! Thanks for the humor.

Aaron

Anyone still interested in this topic? I'm starting to actually draft my article on the conflict between scholars such as Komjathy and popularizers such as Ursula Le Guin. Saw this quote here:

 

"It is no surprise for instance that Ursula Le Guin is not a Taoist scholar and these are easy targets."

 

Hmmm, that's where you have to be a bit careful. Le Guin is not a Daoist scholar, but she is a Harvard graduate who grew up surrounded by the founding fathers of anthropology -- notably her own father, Alfred Kroeger. Not to mention that she co-wrote her Daodejing with J.P. Seaton, who is a scholar of classical Chinese and a translator of classical Chinese poetry.

 

Komjathy is an associate professor, and a Quanzhen initiate, but those disciplines may limit his understanding as well as expand it. As another Daoist scholar said to me recently, it's not that complicated to translate the words of the Daodejing. It's understanding what they mean, even in the original language, that is difficult.

 

It's not like it was a clear-cut, 5 step manual for living when it was first written.

Very good points. I would say that we have enough translations of the Tao Teh Ching floating around now, that we can have a general idea of what was taught then and now. I think when one examines Taoism the easiest misconception is the idea of philosophical Taoism. This is primarily a Western idea and in China there is no separation of Taoism from traditional Chinese religious practices. One can even examine the Tao Teh Ching and see the cultural mythos present in the text itself, in particular the notion of spirits and also, if one examines the Chuang Tzu mythological creatures. It's easy for a westerner to discount much of this, but unless one actually understands the Eastern notion of nature, then they are missing out on a lot of the context.

Aaron

There is no direct explanation as to why the universe was created in the Taoist philosophical texts. The religious side of Taoism follows traditional Chinese mythology, but most philosophical Taoists don't worry so much about it. I would say to the majority of Taoists it's not important why the universe was created as it understanding one's place within the universe.

Now chapter 1 of the Tao Teh Ching says we can understand Tao by understanding the world around us and if you spend enough time looking at the world you see the cyclical nature of things, so one could say the universe was created because it was meant to be created, so that life could persist and exist.

Aaron

I just want to know, how do you NOT practice Taoism?

I don't intentionally practice as a Taoist anymore. Like any other religion Taoism is practiced or not practiced, if you want to go into semantics fine. How is Taoism practiced? Well by following what's said in the Tao Teh Ching, never striving to be first, being compassionate, and frugal. Working towards being a good man and accepting the responsibilities accorded with being a good man (i.e. the good man is the teacher of bad men, etc.) I would happily go into detail regarding this if you're having problems understanding the concept. It's not as easy as going with the flow, in fact, like any other practice, it requires work and dedication. Those people who say, "how do you practice (NOT practice) Taoism?" Are usually the ones who haven't spent any length of time reading Taoist texts and rather see it as a lifestyle, which it isn't. I'm not even knocking Taoism so much, of the religions I know of, I think it's by far the least invasive to one's psyche and has a lot of benefits, but as a person trying to understand the world without pretense, I find that giving up Taoist philosophy is a requirement. Does that answer your question?

Aaron

Ask a hobo down the street how to make a lot of money. He obviously doesn't have any on him since he gave it all away to people who need it more.

Like banks

Ahh... well isn't this offensive? Why are you denigrating homeless people? Most aren't in that situation because they want to be.

Aaron

Interesting video

 

I love this guy... in one video he has a wristwatch that's studded with diamonds around the band, the face, everywhere, probably costs around a hundred thousand dollars. Certainly proof of his enlightenment. I mean, if people aren't paying you to spout "wise things" then what's the point in teaching?

I'm sorry, that was sarcasm, essentially I'm saying this guy is making way too much money for my comfort zone. If he's so detached, what the <bleep> does he need designer clothes, expensive watches, etc. for? Maybe he could donate all that wealth to the hungry and destitute, now that would be an excellent show of compassion. Oh wait, he is being compassionate! He's showing those people who have enough money how to find enlightenment! Or maybe he's just another smooth talker bilking those looking for answers out of money.

Aaron