Aaron

You are the person breathing right now. You know you. Maybe you don't like the you you know and want to be someone different. In the end you will always be you, so embrace yourself and then you can see without ego who you are.

A Taoist, by definition, is someone who identifies as a follower of Taoism, or follows the teaching of Taoism. It's nothing more than a title in the end and should not be deemed to certify someone as "in the know". There are a lot of Taoists who merely identify and have no understanding of the deeper meaning. Remember, "he who knows says little."

edit- I should add, that's fine too. If that's what they need, then let them be.  

If you want to learn about the person Japhy Ryder was based on, it was Gary Snyder, one of the early Western Zen Monks, who also is an amazing poet who helped bring Buddhism to main stream America. Ray Smith's character is based on Jack Kerouac himself, or maybe Neil Cassidy, I can't remember. 

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

I just returned from my own mothers funeral held on friday.     I had a few false alarms " You better get down here, she is on her way out." then the next morning she is sitting up in bed having a cup of tea and asking what all the fuss is about.

 

I got another warning on  monday but she died on tuesday night.    My elder brothers eulogy was great, heard stuff I never knew about.

 

Mine was off the cuff, seemed to please the congregation but the catholic priest maybe didnt agree with it .

 

One thing that impressed me, my brother was saying how he was a primary school teacher and he worked in some pretty rough  areas with abused kids. One kid would come to school very early ( to get away from the home situation)  and he would find him, in winter with tattered clothes huddled up near the door waiting and  shivering. So he went and bought him some thick flannelette  shirts, one for each day, and would give him a clean one and take the old one home to wash for him, mum would wash and iron them for him. he said one day he noticed a lump in the folded shirt and opened it, in the pocket was a 'freddo frog'  , chocolate. She had been slipping in treats for the kid, Eventually it  graduated to biscuits and sandwiches.  Then she  found out,  of off my brother , some never celebrated their birthday or the parents didnt acknowledge  their own kids birthdays  ( wtf ! ? ) so she got him to get their dates off the schools record and would make a cake for him to take to school  and they would have a little birthday party there . 

 

Thats a mum for ya ! 

 

My dad died when I was around 17 .... yes very different expereinces because of my age difference .. but I came after to appreciate him more .

 

You know that  (supposed) Mark Twain quote  : 

 

" When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years. "

 

Thank you for sharing, it was appreciated. I wish you well. 

Your greatest gift is your ability to hear and then decide for yourself whether you agree or disagree with what you hear. My suggestion is listen to what people are saying, be as objective as you can, but don't blindly believe what people are saying, simply because they're "experts" or "been doing this a long time". When you have been doing this a long time you will have your own ideas of what is right and wrong, what is "taoist" and what isn't, however, at the risk of letting the cat out of the bag, there really is no such thing as a Taoist, unless you want to call yourself a Taoist, then there is such a thing. 

So to be a bit more pointed and empathetic, if you look at some of my earliest posts on this forum, I to was "seeking a pure Taoism" one that "was free from the taint of Buddhism" only to come to realize many years later that they are both amazing philosophies and the reason several billion people adhere to both is because they are symbiotic in many ways. One of the problems we have in the west is that we see things in black and white, good or bad, Buddhist or Taoist. This isn't really an Eastern way of thinking, they tend to see the gray, then the color. I think when you see the gray first, it actually helps you identify the color more clearly. 

P.S. Zen actually helped me understand the Tao more than Taoist philosophy did. 

It's been about a month since my mother passed away. It was surreal. I almost got killed the day after by an angry semi truck driver that tried to drive me off the road as I drove up to get her belongings from the nursing home. I had grown distant from my mother over the last few years, but a couple months ago I found out she was dying from cancer and reached out to her to make my own amends. I was able to do all of that, which made it that much easier when she finally did pass. 

So this is the thing, I don't believe in heaven or an "after life", nor do I believe we can without a doubt prove that reincarnation exists. I'm agnostic at best, maybe I lean a bit more towards the atheist side, however, I don't grieve for her. The reason being that I know, regardless, she's not suffering and she was suffering. People can argue the "sanctity of human life" but until you see someone suffering immensely you don't realize how much of a blessing death can be. My greatest and only regret, was not being there at the end. I didn't want her to be alone in that moment, not because I wanted to spend those last minutes with her, but because I didn't want her to die suffering and alone, I wanted her to know she had people that loved her at that time. Again that's my only regret, and If I could've been there I would've, however I had surgery the week before she passed and was still suffering from complications.

The night I found out she had passed there was an odd peace. It's hard to explain, a bit of sadness, but more of an emotional silence. I loved my mother, but my time as a Taoist/Buddhist/hindi/etc. has taught me that even though I think she's gone, she's not really gone. She may very well never have been here in the first place, so putting the time and energy into grieving for her does nothing to bring her back and does nothing to ease my own suffering, nor does it somehow quantify how much I cared for her, so if I am truly being compassionate towards her and myself, then learning to let her go and let myself move on should be my goal.  

So, how was this different from my father's passing? Well he passed when I was much younger (twenty-one) and I had only just begun to read about Taoism. Attachment was the norm and compassion, especially towards myself, wasn't something I  really understood. I was devastated when he passed. I had been living with him at that time and had actually argued with him the night before. My greatest regret at that time was that I thought he had died thinking I was angry or hated him. In retrospect I realize that he knew better. However the memory of those emotions, of that feeling of loss, comes back even now, which is strange, because he was also dying from cancer, he just never told anyone, and you would think I would feel relieved for his passing.

So the difference, I guess, is that knowing my place in this world and my relationship to other people has allowed me to accept this as not a loss, but a blessing for my mother. Whereas my still undeveloped mind was unable to accept the death of my father, due to my inability to understand the nature of death at that time. Both deaths were blessings, and if anyone suffered from those deaths, it was not my parents, but their loved ones, and of course, me. 

Oh that's the other thing, both my parents passed away from lung cancer. You can guess what habit I gave up. 

I just thought I'd share, because this is one of those universal experiences and I thought maybe these observations might help someone else.

"Allow him sixteen hours of sleep daily and provide him with lots of pickled cucumbers and Wu-Ming will always be happy. Expect nothing of him and you will be happy."

I believe dreams were the key to the rise of non-duality, an understanding that perception doesn't necessarily equate to reality and that reality may be something greater than what our physical senses can perceive. To say that dreams are not perception is like saying there is no sound because you are deaf and can not hear it. If you're deaf that may be true for you, but the majority will tell you otherwise, just as the dreamer will tell you that while they were dreaming it was quite real, even if it was all but a dream. In the end perception is the key, when we can escape perception and live in the moment, then the necessity of perception as a means to understand what is, is left behind and we can finally become free. Eternity exists within each moment. 

One man's beauty is another man's ugliness, literally. Worrying about subjective qualities isn't necessarily a good thing. For a long time I've lived by the rule, does it harm me? Does it harm someone else? Then what's the harm in it? Live and let live. Don't covet thy neighbor's wife and all that. In the end we will find that purity is an illusion and beauty never lasts, so stay with the baggage wagon and don't worry so much about the party happening somewhere else.

When I was young(er) I was quick to tell everyone what I was. As I got older I realized that most people wouldn't understand anyway or they would judge me based on their misconceptions, so I've learned to be what I am and leave my personal beliefs and practices to myself. As far as the (relative) safety of this forum goes, I would say I'm an open minded person who practices Taoism, Vedanta, and Buddhism to varying degrees. I pick and choose, because I can and no one can stop me.

This is it in a nutshell, we are all the universe, but only in the sense that the bacteria in our stomach that we use to help digest food is also us. We are tiny, minuscule, but arguably a necessary part of the universe, because without one of us, the universe (everything) would not not exist anymore. To say that we do not have free will is something we can't answer, because if it was true, how would we ever know? 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Of course not ,  I checked in on the debate recently, the Out of India mob are still interpreting the evidence their way , The 'into India ' mob (from Africa ) are still interpreting the evidence their way .

 

Some Indians are very adamant there was no invasion .  Some are claiming the Vedic Indians were Indians all along.

 

And still no one can show archaeological evidence of an Invasion . 

 

We know some cultures in India passed and others rose in the same place. Doesn't mean an invasion .  Just as genetic and linguistic evidence doesn't ensure 'invasion'  .

Genetically we find that the Indians in Northern India are genetically descended from Middle Easterners, whereas the Indians in Southern India (and Sri Lanka) are a distinct people. So there could be an argument for an invasion, but it would also have to define what constitutes an invasion of India since the southern half of India apparently escaped it. However keep in mind a united India was only a recent idea and historically it was separated into many different kingdoms. 

To answer your question, no. And you will die trying.

His "The Book:On the Taboo of Knowing Who You Are" is one of my favorite books period. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in learning more about Vedanta. 

Enlightenment doesn't free one from the obligations of daily living. A schizophrenic who achieves enlightenment is still a schizophrenic. I've met many schizophrenics who are wonderful loving, wise, and knowledgeable individuals. I had a lengthy conversation about Vedanta with a schizophrenic friend and their reply, as if it was a matter of fact, was, "Well that makes sense, doesn't it?" No argument, no questions about self or the id and ego. We stigmatize people without knowing them and in the end it causes us to forget that each of us is each of us, and one is all and all is one. 

Chapter 19 

DROP wisdom, abandon cleverness,
And the people will be benefited a hundredfold.

Drop humanity, abandon justice,
And the people will return to their natural affections.

Drop shrewdness, abandon sharpness,
And robbers and thieves will cease to be.

These three are the criss-cross of Tao,
And are not sufficient in themselves.
Therefore, they should be subordinated
To a Higher principle:
See the Simple and embrace the Primal,
Diminish the self and curb the desires!

Tao Te Ching- Tr. John C. H. Wu 

Anger is the most insidious of emotions. It causes us the most grief and causes others the most pain. It is only when we understand the nature of anger, to protect us, that we can use it appropriately. One should never act in anger, rather they should use it as a sign that they have become emotionally invested in what's happening and need to take time to reflect, so that they do not act rashly. If you can do this, then revenge is never needed. 

Recovering from trauma isn't like building a chair, what I mean, is that people recover in different ways, or fail to recover in different ways. The important thing is to seek help if the trauma is causing you distress. Talking about it can help a lot, but having a professional who can guide you through the healing process can go a long way towards recovering from it. 

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7 hours ago, Starjumper said:

I had a discussion awhile ago and it brought up some questions concerning the ethics of revenge.  To be more specific, as it applies to myself, it appears that I'm a black dragon and black dragons are known for their power and revenge.  Hey, it's my nature, so OK!  So I can honestly say that sometimes I want revenge when I feel wronged in a blatantly unethical manner, and I can say that other times I have felt wronged when in fact it wasn't so wrong, it was some ugly egoism rearing it's ugly face which made it feel wronger than it really was.  Even wanting revenge when seriously wronged comes from a place of ego, BUT, as I was told by one real old Taoist feller who I deemed to be an immortal:  "A person's ego should be like a wild stallion racing free across the open plains."  That's Taoism, in Buddhism and Hinduism it's "kill your ego" which seems kind of sick to me, but I digress.  So, let that ego out of it's cage and let it go wild sometimes.  It's an education.

 

Taoism is a warrior tradition and if you meet someone on the road who wants to kill you then you just naturally try to kill them first. (you can substitute the word hurt for kill).  This is just plain common sense, but revenge is a little different, because it surfaces after the fact, and it comes from anger.  

 

So the question is, what is ethical?  Just letting it go and letting karma take it's course can be ethical, but letting them get away with treachery maybe isn't so ethical.  Assisting them by helping them to find their karma can be ethical too, maybe some people need to be taught a lesson, and warriors who are trained to be judge, jury, and executioner, can be just the ones to teach them the lesson they need, which is ethical too.

 

Something in the TTC touches on this.  "If you try to chop wood like the master carpenter you will hurt your hand".  Master carpenter is the official government executioner and chop wood means to snuff them.  But it doesn't say that you should never chop wood.

 

It seems to me that one of the main sticking points is whether or not something can make you angry.  As I become more of an old fart it happens less and less, but I ain't perfect nor do I care to be, and I'm not convinced that revenge is from the dark side.  It is possible to make a good ethical case for revenge in some cases, making it ethical conduct, so then it's from the light side, isn't it?

 

First, Taoism is not a warrior tradition, it's a tradition warriors have followed. Taoism is a philosophy that, like many religions is oftentimes used to justify people's actions. Nowhere in the Tao Te Ching does it encourage revenge, in fact it does the opposite. It says, essentially, that one should strive to live a life that is in harmony with others and that, if you're succeeding at this, then there should never be the need for revenge, murder, or defending one's self. 

Most people will tell you that revenge does not make you feel better, rather just empty in the end. The subjective qualities of revenge have more to do with the practicalities of it, than the morality of it. Most people have wanted revenge at some point in their life, the reason many stop using it as a means of dealing with their emotions, is because of the repercussions that follow. Whether it's being spanked because you tripped someone who pushed you, or going to jail because you tried to run over your boyfriend or girlfriend. Those who don't learn these rules oftentimes lack the ability to, due to serious personality disorders. 

Lao Tzu would disagree I think. Knowledge does not bring happiness, in most cases. The less you know, the happier you will be. This is why a child can be in the middle of war zone and be thrilled with finding a red ball, they don't know of death or hardship yet, only the red ball and how much fun they can have with it. Three days later, in the same war zone, that child can find that ball, but because of the experiences they've had, they find no joy, it is only a ball, nothing more. Ignorance breeds possibilities that knowledge does not.

I think there's a difference between transient psychosis due to major depression, drug use, or other brief mental illness and schizophrenia and bipolar. I think many of the people who "recover" are most likely suffering from psychosis as a result of something other than a major mental illness. With that said, meditation helped me with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Depression, and Anxiety, removing the need for medication, which I had been taking long term. I found that the less involved in self I became, the less my mental illness ruled my life and the more I was able to escape the trappings of the world from which they grew. That being said, my OCD is a chemical imbalance and I still feel the need to check my door now and again, the difference is I allow myself to do it without feeling guilt over it. 

A lot of growth comes from acceptance, not necessarily getting rid of things. 

Meditation and practice does not bring worth to one's life, that's a subjective value. If you are practicing and it's exacerbating your emotional state, often it's better to take a break. Practice rarely removes the hardship of life. Before enlightenment we chop wood and carry water, afterwards we chop wood and carry water. Enlightenment does not free us from our obligations of daily life, it only helps us understand the nature of existence. 

I've seen very few cases where meditation has eliminated the need for medication with someone suffering from a chemical imbalance in the brain resulting in a mental illness such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. With that said, what meditation can do is help with some of the symptoms associated with mental illness, such as anxiety and depression, but keep in mind that the type of meditation used is different than Vipissana and other more intense forms of meditation. In therapy they normally teach meditation techniques that help people focus from distraction or relax, it's not intended to bring enlightenment, but rather relief from symptoms. 

When one suffers from mental illness, especially if they're experiencing psychosis, depression, anxiety, or other severe symptoms, practicing Vipissana, The Secret of the Golden Flower, or other intense meditation practices can do more harm than good. In fact it was common practice to not teach The Secret of the Golden Flower to people exhibiting these symptoms. This isn't something modern medicine has just figured out, but something that's been taught for a very long time. 

What I recommend isn't the exclusion of meditation for people suffering from mental illness, but rather the wisdom to know what will help them and what will harm them. 

Doctors know that pharmaceuticals can alter the brain chemistry and cause psychotic episodes, long term psychosis, depression, anxiety, and the list goes on, well meditation also alters the brain chemistry, albeit not with the use of drugs. I think that in many cases people are susceptible to these side effects because of their own mental health at the time of the experience. If you have anxiety or depression and you begin to meditate, it opens your mind to the depths of that anxiety and depression and can overwhelm you. If you've been able to suppress paranoid and delusional thoughts through impulse control, meditation can reduce that impulse control and in fact is supposed to reduce it, allowing for one to begin to experience these ideas and thoughts and making it hard for them to stop once the meditation is over, especially if one is encouraged to continue and work through the experience. If you have seriously disturbing thoughts while meditating, STOP IMMEDIATELY and seek psychiatric help.  

I never recommend that people suffering from severe mental illness, depression, anxiety, or other mental disorders practice any extreme form of meditation. Relaxation is one thing, but nothing like a retreat. Most retreats wont even allow someone with a diagnosis to attend for this very reason. Be wise and knowledgeable. Don't encourage people who have issues with reality to experience something that can change that perception in a way they might not be able to handle.