Aaron

I'm not necessarily an authority on the topic, but from what I've learned their were basically two main schools of Taoism in China, the Northern School and the Southern School. The Northern school was more focused on contemplation and meditation and the Southern school more on the accumulation of Qi through internal alchemy. The problem that arises from criticizing Zen from a Taoist perspective is that the goal is not the same. Ch'an Buddhists were heavily influenced by the Northern school of Taoism. Zen Buddhists (and Ch'an Buddhists) strive to reach enlightenment through awareness of the breath and mind. Mental stillness and the use of koans allow one to reach enlightenment, whereas traditional Southern Chinese Taoist practices focus on cultivation of qi, not for the purpose of enlightenment (in most cases) but rather the cultivation of one's own mind and body, with the goal of immortality playing a large part. (I make this distinction since this is what I believe the original poster was talking about.) Zen Buddhists do not consider immortality to be a goal, since all things are transient in nature, so the idea of becoming immortal isn't something they would even consider (although one could say after reaching a state of Buddhist enlightenment that all things are immortal in a sense anyways.) Overall I don't think you can compare the two, aside from the fact that Northern Ch'an Buddhists picked up their method of silent mind meditation from the Taoists school in the north of China and most likely were Taoist converts. In the end Taoism and Buddhism approach reality from two different angles, Taoists with dualism, but more of a shamanistic and naturalistic approach, and Buddhists with their non-dualism philosophy. The curious phenomena is that many Taoists masters will talk about Tao in the same context that Zen Buddhists talk about Zen, so it would be interesting to posit that both reach the same awareness, but use different methods and understandings of the world based on their own cultural awareness. As for me, I think we can learn from all teachings, so to criticize one school of philosophy without practicing it cuts us off from the potential that experience offers us.

So last week I started to have a burning and itching sensation under my armpit. I started to scratch in order to try and relieve myself of the sensation, but it just made it worse. I tried to figure out what was going on so I felt around and found a lump about the size of dime. It was immediately unsettling. I checked the internet, because when you don't have a doctor on hand that's what you do. Each post said it wasn't a big deal, but that if it persisted you should have it checked out. I decided to give it a week or so, but then it started to spread to my other armpit and I got worried and made a doctor's appointment. I asked the nurse who answered the phone if it was something to be concerned about, since the internet mentioned mostly benign causes, only to have her tell me that it could be serious and is sometime an indicator of cancer. Well the hammer dropped then. For a day or so I tried to distract myself from the idea that I might have cancer and in those days the pain got worse and the burning and itching almost unbearable. I decided that I was not going to scratch so I set my mind to ignoring the itching and burning, which I was able to do, but there was still that nagging idea of cancer and death and how this could be the beginning of the end. It would've been easy for me to go down that rabbit hole but I thought to myself, what do I believe regarding death? Well besides reincarnation I've come to believe (thanks to lengthy conversations with V Marco and others) that my life is not measured in a linear fashion, but that I am always existing because there is always a part of time where I exist. Time for me isn't a straight line but a force that expands throughout everything and always exists and will never not exist, even if in some places there is nothing of the physical world to embody it. I guess what I'm saying is that I am a part of "It" and because I am (and have been) a part of "It", even if I'm gone the me that exists will always exist in that moment, and just because that moment is no longer experienced by the me that exists in another place in time, It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, so to worry about this idea that I will be gone is silly, because I will quite literally never be gone, because I am always here in time. It may seem strange to some, but I find it quite reassuring, because with this knowledge I have no real fear of death. It doesn't mean I'm going to go out and start rock climbing, but it does mean that I don't worry as much about the end of me in this lifetime, because this lifetime doesn't end, because time doesn't end and if I am part of this place in time, then a part of me will exist within every space of time, even those parts that no longer have any physical form, simply because I am time, just as I am the universe and I am you and I am me. To clarify, the consciousness of me might not exist, but the physical and metaphysical me never ends, nor does it begin, it always is. So that's my realization, feel free to comment.

No worries guys. I've already made an appointment for the doctors. I was just sharing an epiphany.

Before enlightenment you carry water and chop wood. After enlightenment you carry water and chop wood. In between you just try your darnedest not to go crazy.

If you read chapter 18 and 19 of the Tao Te Ching it talks about humanity and justice (and hence morality), it says they arise in the absence of Tao. Most people assume that in order to achieve enlightenment one must be moral, but the fact is one must be able to see beyond morality and understand that these things are subjective and created according to a false way of living created by man that prevents them from being able to achieve harmony with the world. So long as you see something as moral or immoral, or good or evil, then you will never be able to understand the subjective and transient nature of the world, because it keeps you attached to a social construct that obstructs your understanding of the Tao. A man who becomes enlightened doesn't need to escape the world, because he is a part of the world. He doesn't need to achieve morality, because he is not chained to morality. This confuses many people, and I've seen many "Taoists" who use this concept as a reason to behave any way they want, believing Taoism is a form of social anarchism, when in fact it's not. Taoism is the cure for the necessity of anarchism, but the Tao Te Ching is very much a book about how one should behave, because, lacking the Tao one needs to resort to morality in order to restrain the darker side of human nature. However if one is unfettered by morality, that doesn't mean they act in a harmful or negative way, but rather their decisions on how they behave are based on the necessities of the moment and the Tao. They do what they do, because that's what they are supposed to or not supposed to do. I hope that clarifies things. This is something that deserves much deeper thought, but I don't have the time right now, so I'll leave it there.

One day she'll walk fine and you'll remember the days she fell with fondness. Enjoy this time with her. If it's a real problem talk to your doctor, otherwise get her involved in dance, that will help her with her balance.

I'm sorry this is happening to you Sabretooth. It seems to have really upset you. Have you thought about talking to a counselor or someone in your community to see if there is anything they can do to help you?

I met a guy on one of outreaches suffering from mental illness that couldn't even communicate with me. He was covered in his own feces and you could smell him from 20 feet away. I had to prepare his meal for him because he didn't have the capacity to do it himself. I meet someone like this every time I go out. If this is living like royalty, I feel bad for people in other countries. Don't fall for the hype, people are suffering extreme poverty here in America too.

If you're feeling generous, go down to your local homeless shelter and volunteer some time. You can give them money too. The most needed, but least often given item of clothing are socks. Go grab a couple bags of wool or thermal socks and donate them. A little thing like this can help decide whether or not someone loses their toes. If that's not your thing, then offer to help hand out food, or better yet, make some sandwiches, add a snack and some fruit and give them out to the homeless on the street. The people who say the homeless don't want food, only money, have never handed out food. Trust me, they want food. Anyways, I always encourage people to help others, rather than pay for others to help them. You'll get so much more out of it and you become part of the solution, rather than oblivious to the solution. Aaron

Aussie, I don't believe there can be an answer to this question, because it requires us to put a human quality on the universe which it doesn't have. The fact is the universe is itself and most people aren't happy with that, most people aren't happy with their own lives, so they try to find some deep meaning to give their life value, when they fail to realize that value itself, meaning itself, is subjective. We don't need a sense of value to live. We don't need meaning to live. We don't need to be enlightened or "great", we just need to breathe and eat and drink. If we can do that and let the other stuff go, more often than not we're happy.

They support themselves as best they can.

Actually we reflect a lot of our own feelings and experiences on the world, and because of this, we tend to view the world through a tinted lens.

I don't believe anyone who has the answer to this question.

Today I was in a store standing in line. The man in front of me knew one of the meat cutters and someone joked he was cheap. The man kept saying over and over "Mike you're a jew. You're a jew Mike! A jew! Mike you're a jew!" Mike was ignoring him so the man kept repeating that same phrase over and over. Finally I said, "Buddy, he's not a jew, he's just a normal guy. I'm a jew." The guy looked at me and asked, "you're a jew?" "Yeah, I'm a jew," I answered. "My step-father was a jew," he said. "Cool," I said. "I'm not your step-father." The man laughed and went on his way. This was absolutely not how a Taoist would've handled this situation.

Eat when you're hungry, sleep when you're tired, seek out people when you're lonely, essentially find balance in your life. There is some mysticism involved with wu wei, but a lot of it is common sense. To quote from the surfer world, "go with the flow dude." Aaron

Recently I experienced some harassment by people in my community because of my sexual orientation. It became increasingly bad and as I muddled on through as best I could I couldn't help wondering why bad things happen to "good" people. I actually was hoping that karma would catch up to them at one point, sadly, one by one, each of them had seriously bad things happen to them, I mean the kinds of things that scar and change you forever. At some point I couldn't help but feel horrible and I honestly hoped it wasn't caused by my desire for justice, because in my mind I didn't want to be a part of their suffering in any way. The anger that I had towards them for what they'd done just evaporated. I couldn't be angry about a few words and conspiring actions, when these people were suffering the way they were. What ended up happening is that these people's actions towards me changed as well, they stopped harassing me and one even started to have conversations with me. No one apologized, but in my mind that's not needed. So the question is what do we do when bad things happen to bad people? If I celebrate in the misfortune of others, even if they've done something harmful to me, what does that say about me? I'm wondering if you have experienced bullying and harassment and what you did about it when it happened?

I've experienced nondualism and I'm still an ass, that's the difference between awakening and enlightenment.

I am the universe.

I don't know as much about Taoism as some of the people in this thread, but what I can say is that I don't see wandering as a requirement for Taoism, but rather being in harmony with where you are and allowing yourself to go where you go. I think of the line, "home is where the heart is", except we also examine the condition of the "heart". The other difference is that Buddhism focuses on duality, whereas Taoism focuses on how we interact with the world around us and not so much on duality, in fact Taoism assumes if we are doing what we're supposed to that we will understand the nature of things in the process (and hence the duality of all things). In my opinion, if you want to shake up your beliefs a bit, check out Vedanta, now that stuff will blow your mind! Aaron

I just wanted to respond to some comments- Aethorous, I don't believe any heart is corrupt or pure, they are merely hearts and minds. We all have the capacity to help and harm and if we don't reflect on that now and again, then where does that leave us? I think the most important thing I've come away with is that there are no good or bad people and to deign people as such is hubris. I am not good or bad, I am simply who I am. If I want to continue to grow as a person, or at least travel along the correct path, then it requires me to examine that path, but to see the path as good or bad is irrelevant, I need to see if it is the path I should be on, or if I've been sidetracked. In this case I allowed relentless hounding to impact my serenity and it cost me. Gendao, I have no guilt about my sexual orientation, in fact I embrace it. I never believed my sexuality was bad, I'm not sure where that came from, but rather that I was being targeted because others believed so. I believe shame is a healthy emotion, especially if it's in response to something we've done to cause harm to another. In fact shame is a direct response to our capacity to empathize with others. I think the goal is to overcome shame, but until we become enlightened I suggest we appreciate and address shame when we feel it. Of course there are unhealthy levels of shame, but that's not what I'm addressing here. As far as diabetes, it wasn't a karmic response, rather it was the fact I wasn't taking care of myself. I am rectifying that now and I hope to lose at least 20 pounds in the next few months. My goal is to get down below 200. If I do that, great, if I don't, then I'll probably start losing limbs and eventually die, but that isn't anyone else's fault but mine. Aaron

Thanks to everyone that contributed to the conversation. A funny thing happened on the way to heaven, I got diabetes. I guess it was a matter of time, my diet had gone to crap and I was going to a miserable place. Society sets me on edge sometimes, almost akin to despair and when that happens the necessity for health and longevity seems to be thrown out the window. I was overjoyed that one of the people who I was referring to has had something incredibly good happen to them. It is amazing that we so often believe that we can define what someone deserves, when the universe itself cares nothing for morality. It's a wild world and I think we often want to bring a veil of order to the madness and chaos, when in fact you can't have order without the chaos. I'm currently pondering diets, but in the meantime I'm choosing a low carb approach. I could believe that diabetes is my fate, or I can choose to define my own fate, to the best of my ability. For right now I will be grateful that good things happen to people and remember good and bad have nothing to do with it. Again thanks everyone. I'm sorry it took so long to respond. It wasn't in disrespect, but just that I couldn't figure out what to say. Sorry for the rambling.

I have gone from a militant Taoist to a Taoist/Vedanta/Buddhist. Most of the followers of Taoism are also followers of Buddhism and traditional Chinese practices as well. The West tends to be rigid in their ideas regarding religion, the whole, there can be only one belief. I was like that, but now I've learned some amazing things from so many different sources, it's hard for me to believe only one religion or philosophy has all the answers. Also I've tried to express the notion of philosophical Taoism to Chinese and they look at me like I'm crazy. Anyways, in the end do what you need to and allow yourself the chance to grow when you need to. Don't listen to those people who say "yae" or "nae", because more often than not they have no clue what's really going on.

If you like both, follow both. If you don't like either, well there's always needle point.

In my research, although limited to most, I never came across any indication that the Tao Te Ching refers to anything similar to karma in the sense of rebirth, however the idea that our actions effect what happens to us is a theme that runs throughout the Tao Te Ching. I think we forget that for most Taoists the Tao Te Ching isn't the end all meet all for Taoism, there are lots of other texts respected and studied, and in those texts, whether influenced by Buddhism or not, there is a link to the more contemporary notion of karma.

Sex is pleasurable because it's evolution's way of ensuring that we reproduce.