C T

I hear you loud and clear M!

This is how i see it:

A toothbrush can only be called a toothbrush because it is made up of different non-toothbrush components. These components individually, before coming together, cannot be called a toothbrush, YET. Nonetheless, they already have the necessary potential to be a toothbrush. So one can substitute the label *toothbrush* with any other label, and the same principle can be applied.

Seeing how all things are connected in a similar fashion can intuitively heighten awareness, which can lead to very logical outcomes. (I had to include this line, just to remain on topic hehehe). Take firing a gun for example. In America, there are alot of folks who can fire guns yes? But not all these same folks have a responsible insight into the proper workings of a gun, hence, out of ignorance and disrespect, create alot of unnecessary suffering, for themselves and others.

You know much about guns, more so than many of these folks, so your awareness expands not only around the mechanics of the gun, but outwards, as far as seeing how lethal it can be, its potential to kill or save etc. Hence you have an intuitive respect built around this awareness, and will never take a gun for granted, no matter what. This is the logic behind the intuition. Someone mentions the word 'Gun' to you, and whatever awareness you have with this association immediately comes to the fore. No thoughts involved. Only awareness, borne out of logical understanding.

I think this is a very simple inference on the principle of Emptiness/DO in Buddhism and its effectiveness as a tool to further one's responsibility and accountability to oneself, firstly, and then to the world. I wish to go deeper, but my mind wont let me I am shallow indeed

I hope this made some sense. If it did not, no matter, they are still reflections nonetheless.

Bee good M! Happy weekend

Best wishes to everyone in the thread. I'm hanging up my TB posting hat for a good, long while.

Hello Serene,

Why would you want to do this? Why worry about what others think about your reflections on any matter? After all, they are YOUR reflections, as valid as anyone else's.

Do not concern yourself too much with truth. People are too hung up on this. There are no truths - only reflections. Truth implies something that can be known. Whatever that can be known is already past, like a stale pint.

Someone comes up to you and say, "I know the truth, follow me..." - avoid such a person at all costs. He/she can only give you, at best, memories of experiences gift-wrapped as truths. They are valid for him/her alone.

Where is the truth? Who is the real teacher? Walking barefoot along the beach, admiring the clear blue sky, with a light breeze against my face, aah, supreme peace...and then i step on a piece of broken glass!! Awakened immediately. Thats my truth, my guru, my teacher. So gurus can be helpful in many ways. It is sheer folly to downplay their significance.

IMO, DO has very positive uses other than what has been ascribed to here. I think focussing on it as a path that leads one out of suffering is only a small aspect of it. It goes much further, in that it allows the contemplative to understand the essence of Buddhism, which is compassion. Not once was this mentioned in this thread. The emphasis has always been DO/suffering. So it creates problems. All kinds of differing arguments which some readers find mockingly humorous. This is very sad. Buddhism is NOT about suffering.

The objective of practice (of Buddhism) is not only to lead one out of ignorance and confusion, but to show the path to loving kindness, compassion and equanimity, very often thru having the right view of DO. It is much easier for others who want to learn about Buddhism to relate on this level, do you agree? Even the Taoists.

Thank you for reading.

Hope you will stay on and continue with your contributions. I for one have enjoyed your questions, even though i could not offer any answers !!

Bee good SB.

What it seems that most people aren't getting here is that, all paths that I know of, posit a true existence, that everything is because of the existence of one, mysterious agent behind everything, a beyond concept, true source of all existence. That all things are because of... "God", "Tao", "Light of consciousness", "The great spirit", "The one", "Brahman", "True Being", "I", "I AM", "That", "whatever"...

 

Dependent origination is the only formula even merely on a logical level that transcends the duality of existence and non-existence, not merely as concepts as when you stop thinking for instance in a deep formless samadhi, but come out and say, "That's God"... or, "That's Tao"...

 

Dependent Origination is the only way to look at things if one want's to transcend the duality of "I exist" as one with "That" or, "I do not exist" because only, "That" exists.

 

Buddhism is the on only path that logically posits, neither existence, nor non-existence, neither both, nor neither.

 

Buddhahood never makes experiential, intellectual, or emotional excuses for ignorance.

 

Agree with it or not, think that this is... totally impossible or not. Think it utterly delusional even. Buddhism makes this grandiose statement and stands by it thick and thin, through philosophy and method, it has people that realize this "omniscient omnipresence" of the truth of dependent origination and emptiness.

 

Take it or leave it, but that's Buddhism which means "awake-ism" and I'm a Buddhist.

Hmm...

Now it would be good to hear RR's follow-up to his comment. He must have some heavy stuff to share, otherwise he would not have made that observation above.

The main cause is ignorance of the true dependently originated and thus empty nature of every experience, thought, action, and choice.

 

The experience of rigpa is beyond thinking about any of this stuff, as the realization is intuitive, but uncompounded. You can feel the Buddha presence in every particle, not because the Buddha is everything, but rather all the Buddhas have attained complete and total presence and have omnipresence as their awareness permeates every aspect of everything during all the 3 times as they have firmly realized emptiness. The result of dependent origination is the realization of emptiness. The realization of emptiness means the intuitive realization of dependent origination beyond formulaic thinking. But, one should still express the formula as expression is the formula in action anyway. My poems come across very differently from my scholarly blurps.

 

But, you are welcome to your opinion.

 

Take care.

Hey V - This does sound a bit blurpy alright

Not sure if it will be misinterpreted (again?). Thought i'd let you know!! How about a simpler edit? Ta.

Peace..

Writing this at the airport waiting for plane. I am off to The 1st International Summit on Laozi and Daoist Culture, November 5-7, Beijing, China.

 

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=126994703211

 

Also will be travelling to Wudang Mountain to meet ranking members of the Daoist Association.

 

Will be sure to give full report, pics, and vids when I get back.

 

Be well Stig...

What an auspicious trip you will have! Have a good one!

In the words of M - Happy trails!

Such a sweet pastime!

Five cows offer seven cats

five gallons of milk

five gallons of milk

from droplets of rain it came

the rainbow too is smiling..

You are most wise ... it is nice to keep the 5,7,5 going for first/last lines.

sharing energies,

ideas for cultivation,

such a sweet pastime.

such a sweet pastime

watching the butterfly dance

on tiptoes, i gazed..

(NULL AND VOID )

Guess you made it there before me TM! hehehe

Well vajra it's clear to me you don't understand the main cause of suffering yet and you haven't quite grasped what the true result of logical analysis of dependent origination is. Or just what it is intended to remedy in the end.

Well cant speak for V, but i have a personal curiosity to hear what your take is regarding the main cause of suffering and the true result of logical analysis of DO.

Please enlighten me sir, for i have much to learn.

Thank you.

I don't eat red meat simply because it's not good for the heart (cholesterol) and since I smoke that's one strike against me. I eat a lot of European, high fat, high cholesterol cheeses - that's two strikes against me. Three strikes and you are out.

 

But I do eat fish and foul.

 

A friend of mine who is Vietnam Buddhist eats all types of meat except beef.

 

Peace & Love!

In my humble opinion, fowl would taste a little nicer than foul...hehehe!

Just kidding brother - its all in good fun!

TzuJanLi told of an interesting story earlier. Towards the end of it, there was a line that said, "when you're hungry, eat". Thats very Zen i think, and very practical too. People tend to struggle with a lot of unnecessary baggage at times. If one wants to get around lugging all this on the back, i have no issues with that. Its a personal choice.

When it comes to meat-eating, like anything else, wouldn't it be wise to listen intuitively to what our bodies need, instead of trying to impose our will regardless? Some people eat meat all their lives, and go on to live to a ripe old age. Others do all kinds of healthy alternatives, and dont live past 40. Life is funny like that.

When we neglect what our inner wisdom tells us, in some ways, thats called irresponsible indulgence. And this aint good in all aspects of life, not only in relation to whether meat-eating is right or wrong. There are more important issues at hand to consider.

Of course, holistically and humanely speaking, eating meat can be a negative, and many Buddhist teachers and lamas (contrary to what some posters here think) do in fact speak in favor of a vegetarian diet. In addition, i believe representatives of other traditions and faiths do encourage this as well. Ultimately, it is up to the individual and his/her priorities and health/spiritual considerations. I know that those doing higher tantric practices do abstain from meat-eating, but may return to it after they have completed the practice. Its up to them.

On a personal level, i used to be an active meat-eater, and being a Chef, thats quite natural to me. But in the last two years, there has been a gradual reduction in this, not because of my spiritual pursuits, but my body tells me to ease off, so i listen, and its okay. There is harmony. Nowadays i might eat meat once a week, whereas it used to be meat in every meal. Do i feel any healthier now? Maybe. The important thing is there was no struggle to try to impose anything - it was a natural transformation, a Tao *moment* perhaps.

Forgive me for rambling. Got carried away, but there it is. Thank you for reading y'all. Bee good!

If one uses logic and intuition, then emotion should never be included in any argument. To be logical is to not allow emotion to cloud one's judgment. Therefor, anyone using propaganda such as "my belief system is higher, more subtle, more profound etc. is making an irrational, untenable argument." Especially, when the belief system is extended into the entire cosmos without limit. Yesterday, I learned that a Buddha knows everything without limit! How can anyone comprehend infinity?

ralis

Hey Ralis,

You love playing the guitar right? It must be be easy for you, assuming you are a skillful guitarist. I have not a clue about guitar-playing. So would you say there is a limit to how good a guitarist can get in terms of skill? I would assume there is no end to this mastery, would you agree?

In principle then, your potential as a guitarist is infinite. If this is taken to deeper levels, comprehending infinity and honing your limitless potential as a skilled guitar-player, is exactly the same.

With contemplation, and time, you will understand the co-relation. I suppose William Blake understood, when he wrote the Auguries of Innocence:

"To see a world in a grain of sand,

and heaven in a wild flower,

hold infinity in the palm of your hand

and eternity, in an hour".

Regards.

Now you got me started. Hehehe.

 

The greater the fulfillment the less free will (choices) need be applied. (Are we nearing free-flow yet?)

 

Peace & Love!

Almost there M!

M: "To empty the emptiness of emptiness is the same as fulfillment".

The greater the fulfillment, the freer the will! Wonderful! Sadu! Sadu!

Actually the experience of emptiness is fullness.

 

Marble emptiness in Buddhism doesn't mean empty like in a jar, it means mailable, non-inherent and luminous. I've explained this to you before, I think more than once.

It always dumbfounds me when people prefer to take things personally rather than learn something new. Is that exercising free will? Or... pre-conditioned reaction?

You mean like this page has to be *full* of *emptiness*, uncorrupted in other words, before it can be filled with some *thing*, or substantiated?

Logicians often cannot see things this way. Their argument is empty = empty. Full = full. Things have to very black and white, or they find it quite hard to function otherwise. Many logicians struggle with obsessive needs for every aspect of their lives to be organized and plain to the eye, or else they can fall apart. Remember that movie with Russell Crowe in the lead - whats it called, oh yeah, A Beautiful Mind - thats a classic example!

I think there is a word for this, and its called 'fixated view' which ties in with 'wrong view' in Buddhism. But most people, i figure, have issues with the application of the word 'wrong', so i prefer 'fixated'.

Does this tie in with your patient explanation of the concept of *emptiness/fullness*?

Bee good V!

Hey V! How are you today?

"The more you see emptiness, the freer your will". I like this very much!

Oh, I didn't mean to make you feel unwelcome either, CowTao, and have enjoyed your contributions! It's only that... that 5-7-5 thing... it's only about the 5-7-5 thing... not about you or anyone else personally...

You mean his translator. I've seen numerous examples in translations of this structure being busted, and I confess I disapprove. We've busted so much about the haiku already. The graphic/visual expression, unavailable in alphabetic languages. The traditional artistic method (observation and contemplation, not abstract ideas). The quiet, undramatic tone of voice in which a haiku speaks. And so on. The 5-7-5 structure -- a diamond with its top and bottom facets blunt -- is all that remains. It starts, expands, tapers off -- like natural phenomena do --

 

this IMO is worth preserving, it's the best we can do in English to retain at least a bit of the flavor of the original thing. Just a tiny whiff...

 

Then again, without discipline, all talk is small talk... the discipline of a structure is the surest, albeit paradoxical, road to freedom -- in life and in cultivation and in nature, and most certainly in poetry.

Who am I to blow against the wind?.. If it's not 5-7-5, I ain't no game, is all. So -- carry on any which way you like, with or without my meowy contributions, and have fun.

Hey TM!

Its all in good fun eh? I fully agree with your view btw. Haikus in English can be a bit off. Its like archery with a broken bow thats been taped over. Or a cracked chopstick mended with superglue! But we do our best nonetheless yes?

Bee good my friend.

five seven five yes

challenge met with welcome now

write with the chain gang

..... .....

 

EDIT!

 

mythmaking and artforming simultaneously...

 

a tao cat meows

birdsong carries all away

petals fall, float on

petals fall, float on

in timeless fashion seasons appear -

like pillars...only stronger

Yeah CowTao,

 

That reminded me of Bob Dylan's words (paraphrased): "We all must one day stand naked in front of our maker."

 

Now, I'm not a religious man so I don't take that word 'maker' seriously but in the end we are each responsible for our own actions. No matter how hard we try we cannot place our responsibilities on others - that is only trying to avoid our responsibilities.

 

In our hours of solitude (meditation or praying for most people) is when we should search our inner self and understand what our responsibilities to ourself and those around us really are.

 

So rather than becoming bored and lonely we should use these moments of solitude to attain inner peace & contentment.

 

Peace & Love!

Top of the morning to you sir!

You WOULD love to stand naked in front of your baker wont you? Hahaha....

Well, a gorgeous baker is anytime more tempting than maker

Humor aside, very well put M. Your wisdom is shining again, after a couple of days of 'swimming in choppy waters'

I love solitude. I love pretty bakers too!

Bee good my friend..

The road each of us take in this life can only be taken by us alone. No one can walk this road on our behalf. There is a weakness, a tendency, where we may project and impose this expectation on others, like our family, gods, teachers, country, therapists, partners, society, spiritual master of this and that etc. - to deflect this immense responsibility, if only for a while, so that we can shift a bit of the burden or to lay out a safety net in case we fall miserably on this journey - but at some point, we have to acknowledge and embrace this quest for personal freedom. Isnt this the essence of solitude?

Bee good all!

hi cowtao - fine words - both yours and basho's - please do continue.

This is the second time you have made me feel welcomed here T. Much appreciated.

How about a contribution from you sir? You do not post much, so how about giving us an opportunity to appreciate your fine words?

Thank you. Have a good day!

5

7

5

 

please

Even Stig does not stig to this 5 7 5 structure so....

Basho, the eminent Haiku poet and ex-samurai, does not conform strictly to this 5 7 5 either. An example:

"Winter rain

falls on the cow-shed;

a cock crows.

But if you insist, and there is consensus, 5 7 5 it shall be! I have no prob with this.

Greetings..

 

Hi CowTao: It is as you say.. i was speaking with a Buddhist friend who was trying to explain how "Life is suffering".. i said: if you can convince me that Life is suffering, you will have also convinced me of the great beauty of suffering.. naturally, she was quite annoyed with my perspective, so.. i asked: do you prefer the annoyance over the suffering? .. she became almost furious, so.. i said: pure joy is only a choice away, and it has nothing to do with 'my' perspective.. we didn't speak for a while, we stopped a nice pub and grill, ordered a couple of Sam Adams, and.. she smacked the crap out of me, saying: "Never call yourself a Buddhist, but.. yeah, this is a good beer".. that exchange resonated well with me..

 

Be well..

Yes TJL...a pint or two of beer first - suffering can wait!

Wonderful!

This is for Taoists with a sense of humor:

"One needs a good taoster to make good tao(i)sts!"

Sorry guys, dont take this in the wrong way okay? hehehe

I'd be happy to take one back...

Tibetan Buddhists and many others eat meat and justify it by citing the lower consciousness and potentiality of animals. So Buddhists do kill. The just rationalize it. animals do feel pain and fear. Any good spiritual practitioner and any good Buddhist ought visit their local slaughterhouse before they make that rationalization.

This assumption that Tib Buddhists and many others (Buddhists?) eat meat and justify it.... is a vague observation, made with not very good motives i think. It appears you are trying to portray Buddhists in a negative light, and it does not achieve any purpose, yes?

I am not being defensive here, Songs. It does reflect your judgement in a way IMO.

It's a mostly Buddhist thing apparently. Almost every Buddhist book uses the "we" formulation: "When we meditate on the emptiness in our mind, we realize the true nature of our Medulla Oblogata and we must show it the compassion and lovingkindness it deserves from us, etc.,". I sometimes find it maddening, but pick up any Buddhist book and there 'we' are. Drives me kinda nurtz.

Perhaps its not that *WE* drive you nutz, rather you have allowed yourself to be agitated in a nutty way! Sounds a bit like nit-picking to me, in a relative sense. From a different perspective, one from a Buddhist world-view so to speak, your agitation does present opportunities for furthering the practice of compassion. So its all good i guess...

If i would be crass, i'd say you are merely attempting to pick up brownie points. But i am not, so i wont say this.

is first past the post

Central Park's orange gates of

imagination

imagination

friend or foe?

Alas, the autumn wind blows..

Greetings..

 

There is no 'Life after this one'.. this one is eternal, though it is temporarily manifested as a tangible reality.. realizing this condition, the experiencer understands how even the temporary physical reality affects the evolution of the eternal process..

 

There is a tendency among some spiritual seekers to contemplate Life as a purely random event, and i sense that perspective to be limited.. i sense a 'purpose', a reason for Life and the Cosmos.. the prime question for we/us/Life is "What AM I", and.. as 'parts of a Whole', the Whole and the parts share that prime curiosity.. Life is not 'created or manipulated', it is allowed its freedom to reveal the answer.. the Source set the Cosmos in motion (big bang, maybe), and observes itself evolving according to its 'nature'.. from this freely evolving process both the Whole and itself manifested as 'parts' experience its true nature, unrestricted and uncontrolled.. that is the ultimate 'wisdom', the sincerity to experience your 'true' nature.. so, to suspend my rambling, the 'purpose' is the experience itself.. if the 'parts' find reason to control or manipulate aspects of the experience, then it reveals aspects of the 'nature' of the parts AND the Whole.. and, that aspect is perfectly natural, considering that ALL possibilities become probabilities in the playground of infinity and eternity..

 

When i iam asked of my 'philosophy for Living', i am compelled to respond: Live with unconditional sincerity and a fierce gusto of curiosity..

 

Be well..

The Whole of Life has to be allowed. One has to give absolute permission for this. Otherwise life becomes a series of up-stream manoeuvres, or stagnating moments, or both. This tendency to impose one's insignificant will on Life often leads to all kinds of conflict and neurotic outcomes, and is the root cause of discontentment. (The Chinese have a saying that if Man can ever learn to be content, then even the snake can swallow an elephant.)

This is humanity's folly - a lack of understanding of the humane aspects of freewill. It is, as you say, TJL, without sincerity, and to it could be added 'without obligatory moral responsibilities and integrity'.

But ultimately Life lives itself. It cannot be dammed. It always seeks its own expression, and regardless of all our puny self-serving pursuits, and all the exploitations we impose on life, i guess Life gets the last laugh. It is fruitless to attempt spitting up at the heavens, as the saying goes.

Only when there is total acceptance of this great movement of Life can we truly proclaim, "I belong here, therefore I am".

Regards, my friend.