C T

...and funny guys get to walk through first, always!

Once in a while, on a good day, one comes across a little gem of a perspective. This is mine, today. Words that are put together with thoughtfulness based on personal experience and reflection. Well done TJL. Thank you. I have to say though, speaking for myself of course, that the practice(no specifics needed) found within Buddhism, when applied correctly, actually leads one beyond rigidity and non-rigidity, hence to assume that there is a predefined state to attain is a slight misconception. One could say it reveals the Original Ground of Being, to reconnect with what was inherently there already. So any movement of thought or action, even intent for that matter, moves one away from this natural state, and gives rise to fabrication, be it conceptual or otherwise. Even this description is just the finger pointing, its not the moon. One can rest silently in this primordial state of pure awareness, but it cannot be described. Any attempt to do so sets the rippling effect in motion, and in the same context, this is what *catches* one to create karma, just like ripples moving in ever-widening circles. One intent leads to two thoughts leading to three actions and so on (just an analogy). I hope you can at least get a little *insight* behind all these words. Apologies for the unnecessarily long reply. A short one would have just read: and thank you..

Nice post! The last para was a rocker!!

Hey Drew, Dont mean to spoil the fun, but I think the Zen Buddhists got something going when they said that every thought that arises in the mind has its seed in conceptuality - every single thought. Even those that make us think what the REAL DEAL is.. People are so easily distracted with forms nowadays. No matter how great the achievements or levels of attainment, there is still decay and death. Even the Supreme Ones have to pass away. You think 49 days in full meditative absorption with all the works is the real deal? Man, there are some yogis up in the Himalayas who can do these for years, with only a loin cloth for company!! (Read 'Autobiography of A Yogi'). You can point a camera at their physical appearance and *shoot* but when the picture comes out, their form does not show. Even then, these light beings still have subtle defilements. So dont be so gullible. Train the mind. Train the mind. This the foundation for THE real deal, which is deal-less, meaning it transcends all forms. When the mind is trained, the body follows. Hence conceptual philosophy has its place. There is some truth in the saying, "Its all in the mind"! Be good!

Wishing you a very happy birthday DH!

Hello DC! Just a couple of questions regarding your observation above: 1) Are you saying that the experience of Enlightenment (if there is such a thing) cannot be discussed? At all? Why? *Jon Doe* just got a glimpse of what profound wakefulness is - Are you saying its wrong to verbalize his experience? This is a curious thought.. 2) Since we are all stuck in illusion, does this mean whatever we experience is also experienced within this illusion? Is it possible to remove oneself from this illusion? If yes, what do you think can help one towards awakening from the dream? Your thoughts would be appreciated. _/\_ Regards.

and some way about they know its the long road home in praise of the Om

Hey there Nac! Good to see you managed to get some internet time - thought we wont hear from you for a couple of days! For my own practice, i just call the whatever the Nondescript. It works for me, with the understanding it is yet another label, of course. Just another ripple on the surface of conceptual thought! Regards!

Hey MH, Tis great to know your truck is still around!! Although it may come as some kind of surprise to realize the truck you saw just now and that which you saw a few hours ago is already a different truck. Even though to the untrained eye, the dualistic eye, it will still look the same. When the mind is still, the need to *escape* any concepts, conditions and limiting labels becomes thoroughly trivial, even unnecessary. The still mind is not a dead mind. On the contrary, it is the truly *alive* mind, the Original Mind, the awakened mind, one that becomes mirror-like, and whatever arises in such a mind does not leave any more imprints. Of course these are still concepts, but the mind can be stilled, that's beyond doubt. A still mind is likened to a lake that is completely undisturbed. In this way, whatever is reflected by the lake is pristine and exact. The mind is the same. Its original wakeful state is stillness, both on the surface and below it. Thoughts arise and the stillness is disturbed. But the underlying nature, that which is below the surface, remains still. It is this deeper, original nature that the practice of meditation can point one to, and gives meaning to this: "resting in original wakefulness, you can watch and engage the world fully, without any attachment, fear, guilt and aversions". I think there is a similar view in Taoism, but i stand to be corrected. So your observation above does not work for me sorry. Regards.

Thank you for the input TJL. Your perspective is worth reflecting upon. I definitely agree with the proposal that delusion arises with the habitual tendency to pick sides. From what i understand, this habit is that which binds one to the cyclical forces of what you may term as 'non-creative intentions', the way it perpetuates, which is the basis for the mind to operate continuously (even over many lifetimes) in a way where the deluded individual has no idea whatsoever of what it means to be free of extreme views, as in side-picking. Perhaps you could expand a little on 'creative intention' and give some examples. That would clarify this post even more. I'd be grateful for this. Cheers!

I too agree. Silat is also widely practiced among the Malay people in Malaysia, where i grew up. My family used to have a Malay gardener who was a Silat exponent, and a very good one too. From him i learnt that there are esoteric and exoteric aspects to the art, and students of the former can access *help* from other realms, and are taught to do this by their respective lineage grandmasters. (I will not go into specifics here out of respect for other's beliefs). But i can say i have personally witness some demos by students of the esoteric schools, and it does boggle the mind! Definitely NOT for authentic spiritual cultivation. As for this 'kuntau' thing i read that it originated in the north of peninsula Malaysia. Those intersted can google "Silat Kuntau Tekpi" and read about its history. I have also witnessed different kinds of demonstrations that westerners would call "crazy shit" like *spiritual* kungfu etc. where practitioners day-fasted for 49 days, and after that, are taught to invoke different 'kungfu deities' like monkey god, kwan kung and a few others. Its all real, but again, nothing to do with the authentic spiritual paths. So do not be too taken in by *forms*. Of course they exist. They fascinate the 'big boys' in the same way Toys R Us fascinate the kids. While some of these *forms* may indeed be quite neutral or harmless, in the long run, it may be detrimental to one's real progress, unless of course one chooses purposefully to remain in denial of the potential dangers involved in these pseudo-spiritual, left-hand cultivations.

It'd be great to hear what you think of this person's experience SB. Thanks for posting it btw. Interesting..

Only the truly brave can admit to being fearful.

Just want to add some thoughts that came up today: We sensate earth, but where did earth come from? Where does it go? Is there a source where earth essence arise from and return to? We sensate water, but where did water come from? Where does water go? Is there a source where water essence arise from and return to? We sensate fire, but where did fire come from? Where does fire go? Is there a source from where fire essence arise from and return to? We sensate wind, but where did wind come from? Where does wind go? Is there a source from where wind essence arise from and return to? We sensate the *I*, but where did this *I* come from? Where does the *I* go? Is there a source from where the *I* essence arise from and return to? One is full, the other is empty. Each dependently arises and ceases, individually, collectively, instantaneously, simultaneously, conditionally. It is not helpful that there are those who think Buddhists negate the existence of *I*, or that the person exists. Of course we exist. To say or think otherwise is ignoring the understanding of how all things arise and cease. Some may ask if this understanding is important, or relevant? It all depends on the individual's philosophical and spiritual inclinations. For some, the declaration "Know thyself" has deep significance, while for others it can mean "My name is Joe. I exist. I live in a hole. I will die and return to another hole. This is the meaning of my life." Such is the irony of existence. Have a nice day. Btw, do you know where this *day* came from? hehehe.. Some will say the *day* comes when the sun rises...

Well, if he teaches free of charge, he must have got the hair done at the Zap Kapow barbershop down the road!

ha ha, ha ha, he he he, he he, he he, ha still the robin sings..

An intelligent, self-actualizing person could say something like this, "I am in pain, but pain is different from suffering. Hence I am not suffering". An intelligent person who has transcended the concept of an independent self to be actualized, could say the exact the same thing, "There is pain, but pain is different from suffering. Hence there is no suffering". Non-self 101. May all be wise.

:lol: One would derive more entertainment value from watching The Matrix!! hehehe It says on the website that he can help one to attain rainbow body in 2 (TWO?) hours! Wow! This claim alone would probably make him his first million; after all, attachment to form is THE big thing of this century!!

Hello! What an interesting question you have put forth here thuscomeone. It is not an easy task to attempt an answer, and it may very well be the subject of much ridicule should someone come forward to proclaim that they know the answer for certain. At best, i think we can only speculate and contemplate on this up to a point, and then find that the final piece of the jigsaw cannot be found while we are still alive. Please understand that i am speaking from the relative here, since there will be those who would point out that at the absolute level, there is no death, but that is a different matter altogether. I believe there is a reverence for elders of all the great traditions and faiths who have gained immense insight into this subject, and some have forwarded texts that offers very precise details on what takes place after death (and the final hours prior to this is also covered), and the two that springs to mind are the Egyptian Book of the Dead and the Tibetan Book of the Dead. These two volumes can be an interesting read if one seriously want to get a feel for the subject. Whether they can be regarded as authoritative or not is left entirely to the discretion of the reader, of course. Having met and spoken to a few of these elders myself regarding this question, i can report that their conviction about knowing exactly what happens after death is pretty steadfast, and these same elders have presided over the final transitional phases of many dying people, so they would be deeply venerated in their respective communities. I have attended a few Taoist funerals where ceremonial prayers are made by Taoist priests for the deceased, and this can last anywhere from one to three days, depending on how affluent the family of the deceased is! The services of these priests do come at quite a price i must say. Here the priests would chant/pray ceaselessly (no breaks over the 1 to 3 days ceremony - there are usually 3 priests at every funeral, and they take turns to do the prayers) for the smooth transition from death to purgatory to rebirth, and would make offerings to The Keeper of the Underworld and his death-escorts, or henchmen, to ask them to look favorably on the deceased and not to exact any punishment on him/her for transgressions made, and to escort the soul towards an auspicious rebirth. This is how its done in most Asian Chinese Taoist communities, so i just wanted to share this with you all on this thread. I know it does not address the question directly, but its slightly related i think. Hope some of you would have found this a little interesting... Thank you for reading.

Hey there Songs! The figures you presented does seem pretty weighty and naturally one can feel overwhelmed by V's seemingly dominant presence here, there and everywhere . I have no problems at all seeing his name pop up in all the right/wrong places, and if some of the things he say does not *resonate* with me, i just let it go, with the thought that it may perhaps resonate for someone else, and if it does, then his enthusiastic posts would have served some purpose. Even though i do not know V personally, i believe i know enough to understand why he is such a *defender* of his teacher/teachings. If you have gone through the life/spiritual experiences of what V has gone through, you would probably not be here to tell the tale (trust me - i think i am quite sure of this). So from a wider perspective, i am glad that he is here, and here in a constructive sense, well, almost always anyways. I am sure we all have differing life stories, and looking at it from this angle, its really a blessing on TB because it makes it so much more interesting, do you agree? As for the 2 Ks (UG and J) - i personally think we have much to learn from them, especially J, imo. If there is one book that is close to discoursing the relative human condition, i think *The Awakening of Intelligence* would be IT! Thanks anyway for giving voice to your feelings. It is all good in the end... Regards.

Me thinks we can be friends TJL! You have humbled me with this appropriately gentle response. Whoever said water is stronger than the hardest rock is spot on! No doubt at all! Thank you sincerely sir. Have a good day..

Hello TJL, Thank you for the response. Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's here. This is an open forum. 'Nasty' was used in reference to your misguided attempt to disqualify V's post by inferring that this is an exclusive forum for those who profess Taoism, which i am sure you are well aware by now that it was a misperception. It was not an emotional statement - it is a statement, nonetheless - if you feel undermined in the slightest by it, and make this known, i will apologize. If not, then an apology would not be necessary. Its good to know you are beyond labels, something which you have made clear from the beginning. My curiosity is if you were truly such, why the jabs at Buddhism? I am not defending Buddhism as such, as i am not worthy to be its crusader. I am struggling with this understanding mainly because i have seen much sense in most of your other posts, and have acknowledged that to you more than once, i believe. Your portrayal above of the Buddha and his probable motive for having presented the Dharma is an example of a 'jab'. I can understand where you are coming from, but i am sure there could be wiser means to forward your message. This frequent allusion to the possible basic flaw of Buddha/Buddhism/Buddhists i believe, may be a result of some preconceived notions you may have about its philosophy (which may be justified given your personal experiences), and if so, i am sure there are a few learned individuals here on TB who would be only too happy to address your sincere questions, should you have any. If this is a mistaken assumption, then it may be that you do not wish to harmonize with Buddhists, which of course, is your personal right too, and naturally these rights are not to be denied, but bear in mind others too, have this privilege. However, if its just a question of resonance, then that makes everyone here a happy camper, yes? Each resonates to a different tune, and together, there is music!! Why not? There is absolutely no necessity to equate Buddha as a Bill Gates of Buddhism. This is not helpful at all. And if some guy makes similar remarks at the great Taoist sages, i will say the same to them. Not that it matters what i say, but to keep quiet is to deny common courtesy, which i am sure could be practically applied here. Regards sir.

TJL - this comment is naaaasty! Pardon my directness. You have just lost all your brownie points!! Why nasty? Read V's reply - its pretty clear.