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I am just wondering here, after reading Little1's post, whether immortality only becomes unreasonable when viewed from the position of an individual self that becomes immortal? What if it was viewed from the position of a perennial 'selfhood' - is that also unreasonable? After all, selfhood denotes the potential to be ever-evolving. In developing one's selfhood, the tendency is to grow and expand a 'personality' and not a static self, and in my mind, its a boundless state, with limitless possibilities. For most of us, what we do not finish in this lifetime, it is almost certain that we relegate the unfinished business to our offsprings, our spouses, our business partners, and whatever or whomever else we cant leave behind. This can be problematic most times, because it makes it hard to leave without burdening others with matters that we think are so important that they have to carry on regardless. We cling to the need to remain even after the body is gone. In this way some individuals do attain a form of immortality, but the price of it then is the inability to die unencumbered. Accordingly, this is the root cause of rebirth, if we want to take Buddhist doctrine into consideration. Selfhood returning indefinitely due to unfinished business. They say this sets the ever-spinning samsaric wheel in motion? Maybe the quest for immortality is not so wonderful after all. In this sense, i would say that Gold is correct - its very much an unfavorable attainment. In cultivation, do we develop the self, or do we cultivate a 'selfhood'? If its the latter, then immortality is a viable possibility. After all, we do leave indelible marks by virtue of our existence, and these can never be erased - forgotten, maybe, but never erased. Every thought we think has the potential for causing a big chain of endless repercussions. Therefore, be very cautious with thoughts... choose them wisely. Even the tiniest grain of sand, thrown in a still pool, would cause a ripple to take effect.

Your post was very clear I was not disagreeing with any of your observations - merely wanted to add on to them with my thoughts on the matter. Surely it was an oversight that this was not made known in the reply, and i apologize. I do agree with you actually about the likelihood that simple-minded people tend to overstep boundaries and create situations and difficulties for themselves and others. Those who are more cognitively developed usually are able to exercise a more positive awareness around things. One thing i could not agree fully here with you is that Mindfulness meditation screws people up all the time. You used the 'rules' bit as a basis for your statement. I dont think that is sufficient ground to justify the comment. I look around and see rules everywhere nowadays. You and i know the primary reasons for rules are mainly for indemnification purposes, and are required by insurance companies that they be displayed. Most centers who offer meditation courses of any sort do not really care who participates as long as fees are paid. If there were stringent vetting procedures in place, with great emphasis on the potential hazards involved, then the article above would be a non-starter. Its primarily due to so much unscrupulousness around that this 'mess' has surfaced to the attention of the writer. There are many levels of Mindfulness meditation as far as i know. In those traditions that i am aware of and have experience in (only very superficially, as you have keenly noted), the induction of practitioners are very carefully structured to ensure that individuals do not overstep into so-called higher practices before they are ready. Basic Mindfulness meditation is opened to all, to give a taste of what meditation can be like, and how it can be beneficial. There are classes where inductees are taught simple things like listening to the tinkle of a bell, mindful walking and breathing, and so on. Very basic methods. Those who have questions are given time to address their doubts before being advised to think clearly if they wish to proceed on. Nothing fanciful in the beginning, like visualizing complex mandalas etc. But i am sure you are already well aware of all this. So at this level, Mindfulness meditation is really quite harmless. Nonetheless, I fully agree that it can be potentially harmful though, but then, they occur only to those who are simple-minded, or can we also say simple of mind? All the best.

I see it more as a warning to those who deliberately choose to complicate their lives actually. Simplicity is always good, in meditation as with all other areas of life. I think what the writer did was to point out the dangers of making the whole approach too complex. In other words, people who embark on the path usually begin with the foundational aspects and practices, and not realizing that that was more than sufficient to cradle the rest of the journey, they begin to dabble - attracting unnecessary burdens, giving rise to all these 'problems' as mentioned in the article. Ask the really old and wise meditators, or read about their paths - they all articulate simple, straightforward, middle-of-the-road practices. Mindfulness, for example... how hard is that? How can 'Mindfulness practice' screw a person up? But then there is no excitement in boring ol' mindfulness, is there, so the mind gets to work and creates things that seem to instill a sense of going somewhere by coming up with more expansive and exotic practices, albeit all falsely induced. This premise is full of pitfalls. Keeping to the basics is so vital. I think its quite a valid article on the whole. Creates some awareness around the fact that dabbling can be rather hazardous.

in going with tao bring along the big fat cow all good things follow...

Breathing is easy... its traversing the mindscapes after the last breath is drawn that may prove tricky for most.

Hi Mr Songs - quite curious to know what caused this to happen? Might be helpful if you could share some info around this predicament of yours. I have never heard of bacterial joint infection. Was it due to negligence of minor sprains that led to acute inflammation and subsequently infection? Any insights would be appreciated... I play competitive badminton regularly, which puts hefty demands on the wrists and ankles, and do experience quite a bit of battering to these parts at times - in fact sprains are quite the norm. Usually i just heal myself thru intense visualization, and would resume playing after a day or two. As age is catching up, there is a feeling that perhaps i ought to know more about potential hazards that may not be as easy to overcome, hence the question. Thanks in advance! (I realize this has no direct bearing on your topic -sorry!) Wish you the very best in tackling and healing this rather serious-sounding condition.

either way 'tsa mess both would inflict some set-backs good to remain sharp...

I emigrated from Malaysia when i was 29. Purely by chance ! At that time the economy was just about to go to bits. Out of the blues a Malaysian entrepreneur based in Hong Kong, who have heard of the work i was doing in Malaysia, offered me a retainer of a year to do some consultation work for him over there. Grabbed the opportunity without even a second thought, for 2 reasons - the economy going pear-shaped, and just after parting ways with girlfriend of 7 years. That year in HK was an immense growth opportunity that enabled me to solidify my finances and get a firm grip on the direction i wanted to take for the coming few years. The wage i earned in that one year was equivalent to what i would have got in Malaysia working 5 years, and the beauty was that the standard of living was almost the same as Malaysia, barring accommodation (provided for by the company in HK), which could be very expensive due to drastic space/land constraints there. For your info, Mikael, HK is pretty cool as a place to live. You will have every imaginable convenience at your fingertips 24/7 - its a bit like NY, the city that never sleeps! Had a really great time there, and the people are very open. You will definitely not experience any scornful restrictions or prejudicial 'stares' as regards your spiritual preferences. Au contraire, the people of HK love Westerners from what i have seen. From HK i moved to the UK for 2 years. Not much affinity for the place. Eventually took up residence in Ireland, and have been here since 1993. Lovely country with a very friendly, mostly laid-back culture. definitely not a land of milk and honey mind you. Its pretty unstable at the moment due to various major knocks to the economy recently. There was a mass exodus of Irish people to other countries a few decades ago, and its starting to happen again - its that serious. So definitely would not recommend immigrating here for the time being, generally speaking. Specifically, it could mean that the country may be experiencing some kind of a brain-drain, so there might be great opportunities here for the right 'brains'.... As far as i know, the immigration policy in Ireland is not as restrictive as say Singapore, Malaysia, Australia and the UK. I would be hesitant to recommend Thailand. Its too politically unstable. Having said that, its a beautiful country though. You might be interested to know that B. Alan Wallace has set up a meditation and mind science academy in Phuket. Thailand. Might be worth looking into? Check this out: http://www.phuketinternationalacademy.com/PIAMC/about_us.php All the best!

Well presented Blasto. Its a great model to have as one's guide. Just a small point: i seem to have detected an equation between high intellect with expansive consciousness somewhere in your post. Correct me if it was an erroneous read. Thanks.

"I don't know" is a good way to be... it means there is no 'stuckness'; in many ways, knowing puts an end to wonderment. Its a process of investigating set views that lends purpose to an individual's quest for higher realization. This is the beginning of the path. Towards the culmination of all the searching and investigating, the humor is that we arrive back to the exact place where we started. This does not in any way take away the significance of the preliminary need to investigate thru reflecting the doctrines against personal experience and doubts. Without these it would be difficult for insights to arise. The refresher that was linked ought to shed some light on the core doctrine of Buddhism and what it means when I.O. is actualized. Thank you for your kind interest.

is that another year? Just yesterday i awoke amidst summer rain...

Hey Bob, No inference was made about impermanence being the most vital lesson - all that was said was that it was his first and last teaching. I think impermanence is woven into almost every single fabric of the Buddhist philosophy, so it is rather essential, wouldn't you agree? That and Interdependent Origination - which is what the quoted Sutta points to. I do not see the 'condition' (as stated in the Sutta) as a reference to the uncoiling of a self/person towards immortality. One who realizes I.O. then is, very literally, beyond birth and death, and to reach the point of pervasively abiding in this view is in truth to have realized that all things are impermanent. Once this (Impermanence) can be deducted logically to be the basis of both samsara and nirvana (where the practitioner actually arrives at the faultless view that all things are indeed without permanence), only then can one begin to rise above the notions of life and death as being a beginning and an ending of sorts. When this view is attained, where can mortality and its opposing state find room in such a mind? Sorrow truly has no place in a mind that is free of dualistic notions. Have a good day. Ananda ps - no offense taken! A refresher note on Interdependent Origination: http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2003/summer/dharma_dict_summer03.htm

receptive, enjoy the time is now, this moment feel the pulse of change...

Hey MH, The concepts were handed down alright. There is no denying that those you label 'saviors' did their job, which is simply to point the way out of misery. In this regard they have succeeded. Imo, one of the primary reasons why peace and love has not taken root, and dissatisfaction rampant, and with world on brink of self-destruction, is that the majority of people are unable to satisfactorily rise above such notions as peace and love and reconcile them as fundamental core values in their psyche. Thinking that they are disempowered, disillusioned and helpless, people go into denial, or worse allow their denial to dictate and justify their crazy words and actions, just like drowning men and women desperate to hang on to survival by grabbing and pushing down their drowning neighbors just to get a gasp of air. It becomes very much a vicious cycle, one that begins reverberating at first on an individual scale, then in the family, followed by the community, then country and NOW (i was going to say 'eventually' - but its not is it? Its so happening now) globally. Its easy to say we want to see a global shift in consciousness - the biggy question is how is this to be achieved? Is it through learning about the hows and whys of immortality? Is this even relevant? This is the pertinent question i am putting forth here. Which is more compelling - that the Buddha hinted that men could live forever, or that He, through His passing away, taught His first and last lesson - Impermanence?

two peas from a pod three scoops of baked beans on toast sorted for the day...

Pranic mastery. Powerful indeed. So is this: Have a listen and feel the expansion!

inscrutable gaze ricochetted off the walls mirroring oneself...

Well said. Blasto's post above reeks of much haughtiness. It makes one wonder why seemingly intelligent people quite often find it difficult to germinate their seed of humility. jK's post hardly represented a challenge. The way i see it, he was making a declaration, and one that left quite a bit to be desired actually. This is 3Bob's thread, and if jK is truly an ambassador of Raja Yoga or whatever, the least he could do, having chosen not to engage in sensible discussion, was to either keep his views to himself, and/or show a bit of respect to the OP in what he writes. It really is not that hard, especially for those who have had the privilege to count themselves as academicians. Sorry Bob.. its not my intention to comment on your behalf. I am just blowing off a bit of steam here.

This group is making quite an impact along the lines of a 'spiritual revolution': http://www.kechara.com/kwpc/ http://www.kechara.com/index.php Highly motivated, engaged, and doing a lot of positive work in society to raise environmental and spiritual awareness, with the aid of many prominent philanthropists. Some of the key areas where the group are intensively focussing on is homelessness, recycling, animal cruelty, and the old folks. They walk the talk... A really good workable model they have.

This is a great view to have Scott imo. The thing is there will come a time when one can no longer separate practice and non-practice, in that the 'practice' gets to overflow into mundane activities.. that's when the fun begins! Then the 'being' is constantly infused with a kind 'bubbliness' (for want of a word) in the heart region, and there is simply a sense of surreal lightness all around. Of course this will not be possible if one is not ready to surrender some gross habitual patterns which keeps one mired in the gross body. Thru practice of transforming these habits, like gradually moving from meat to vegetarian to an eventual breatharian diet (just one vital example of habit-changing), in theory, it is said that the gross physical body can be alchemically tuned and refined to reverse the natural physical laws that govern 99.9 percent of us. Keeping it simple is wisdom. Nothing silly about that. Its the intelligent ones that get cemented in things.

pause and consider turning over a new leaf within and without. ... ... ... within and without all things disperse and join up ad infinitum...

Music is good. While listening, all thoughts can cease. Rest. Relax. Rejuvenate. A classic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx3yXUunEq8

A brief journalistic account (4 pages only) of one man's (Carter Phipps) quest to interview a few individuals who subscribes to the Immortality view through their connection with the famous Immortal Yogi of India - Babaji: http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j21/babaji.asp?page=3 Babaji.com transmits a path towards divine union, which leads to attaining the deathless. Cute, i thought. http://www.babaji.com/

good one!

Well so are you, MH... thanks