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From what i can see, the cultivation of Tao, or the path of Tao, is one of refining the grosser levels of mental, physical and speech activities. It is the purposeful act of honing oneself in these three aspects which are primarily the 3 windows from which you reveal yourself to the world around you, and the means with which the world uses to look back at you. The cleaner the windows, the clearer each can see the other, but ultimately there is still a 'barrier', no matter how clean this barrier is. It feels to me that this analogy kind of describes the relationship you are presently engaged in. The fun part is, now that things are clear to you, there is a sense of frustration because now that limitations have become exposed, it has also entailed the formation of judgements- what is good and proper, and what is perceived to be lacking and improper.., this kind of discernment often result in discord, which is not the way of the sages. In the sage's house, there are no windows. Not only that, often even the need for doors are discarded. Only then can he move in and out of himself, and society, with ease, for there remains no barrier in which dust might gather. The essence of the Tao is unity. If you perceive two modes of existence - there is you, who has refined your ways, and then there are those whom you deem to be less refined - as long as this view is maintained, it would be hard to remain close to the essence. "In ordinary life, we are usually not aware of the unity of all things, but divide the world into separate objects and events. This division is useful and necessary to cope with our everyday environment, but it is not a fundamental feature of reality. It is an abstraction devised by our discriminating and categorising intellect. To believe that our abstract concepts of seperate 'things' and 'events' are realities of Nature is an illusion." -- (Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics) "When the people of the world all know beauty as beauty, there arises ugliness. When they all know the good as good, there arises the discernment of what is evil. Therefore being and non-being produce each other." (Lao Tzu) Discrimination is one of the chief causes of the illusion of self and other. The illusion of self and other creates separation. Separation is one of the primary driving force that compounds yet another illusion that we are somehow incomplete. Sensing that we could be incomplete, there arises perplexities around feelings, thoughts, words and deeds, thus unnecessary energy is dissipated in trying to look after too many things. When unnecessary energy is dissipated, how can one expect to have vigor? Without vigor, it is impossible to return to the Source, harmoniously and unfragmented.

No need to apologise Dwai - i always enjoy reading your views, even though there may be some minor points i have yet to find agreement with. For me, consciousness simply means the Thinking principle. In a sort of linear fashion, we could say that 'I' is brought forth when perceptions arise, followed by sensations, then mental activity, and this whole sequential activity sums up 'consciousness'. In some ways, those who want to dissolve the phantom 'I' can do so, through insight meditation, by working on this sequence backwards, that is, recognise consciousness from seeing the mental activities of the mind arising due to gross and subtle sensual grasping, which is a direct result of perceiving things not for what they really are, but how we want them to be (or not to be) due to past conditionings. Hence when, through meditative effort and insight, the activities of the mind begins to, metaphorically speaking, slow down and sink to the bottom, then consciousness becomes refined, leading to a stage where it can then be transcended, at which point, what remains is illuminated, primordial awareness. This is not to absurdly say that thinking stops. I think what happens then is that one can choose when to engage the mind, and when to rest in the soothing waters of pervasive awareness. Somehow i sense there is a better way to express this, but at this point, i am incapable of structuring my thoughts coherently, so i ask for pardon. Maybe if it makes a bit of sense to someone out there, please feel free to add some meaning into this. thanks! .......... This condensed clip (about 10mins) on 'Consciousness' by Peter Russell is very clear: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-368504083878779133# For those who have the time (1 hr 10 mins), this is the longer version: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-368504083878779133#docid=7799171063626430789

Hello MH! When i read this, suddenly a thought popped into my mind: Maybe we see nothing because 'we' as a collective whole do not exist, or exist in the past, and if we can weave in and out of dimensions, we can indeed change our future! (have to quit watching them sci-fi movies!) Have you ever heard astronomers saying that some of the stars that are 'out there', clearly perceptible to our eyes, are in fact, already non-existent, having already burnt out? We still see them due of the time/space factor coming into play. Now just imagine for a minute (hypothetically speaking) we were standing on that star prior to its disintegration, and looking towards earth, do you think the same thing is perceived - a star (earth) that has already become extinct?!! Maybe the view from that star to earth would enable the turning back of time, whereby dinosaurs are still roaming the planet? hehe... To borrow a recently recalled expression.. - Freaky! Vaj is right - there is malleability indeed!!

From Stig back to Stig beginning with A Seven - three thousand and one...

Arrogance can be a dangerous thing. In an age where apparently anything goes, people have become so rejective of abiding by polite conventions, language included, those that attempt to choose their words as skillfully as possible, sadly, are often seen as weaklings who are fearful of honest expressions. Often they would be stigmatized with some babble about blocked Qi or dirty Chakra. Whats astounding though is that the same people who are pro-expression (without borders nor regard for tact) are often also those that insist on echoing the cliche 'listen to the inner voice of Deep Silence', or some other uttering with the same nuance... Quite ironical, really.

Hello Seth Ananda... Apologies in advance for butting in to this interesting exchange - from what i understand and have gained minute insight into, the Buddhist concept of the union of 'wisdom and method' does not say which takes precedent over the other - its more exact-ish to see in the way that DO points to primordial wisdom, existing prior to and above consciousness, and Awareness is Method, which includes all the stages that eventually takes the realizer even beyond conceptual union. Until such time, conceptual practices are useful to an extent, and over time, the practitioner learns to drop old habits of fixation and contraction. I could be wrong here, but thats the way i have come to understand it. ps- just out of curiosity, is Seth Ananda your real name? I like it. If one takes the Seth away, we both have the same name! Mine's not adopted, btw...

Hi Stoner, I like the way you present your views. One gets whiffs of freshness in some of the things you have said, and that's nice. I was actually inspired to offer a perspective in return, which i hope will, in its own small way, fit in to your understanding. As some might know, the Buddhist path can be fairly pragmatic. In many ways, it shares many commonalities with the Taoist path in terms of philosophical deductions and approaches. Very seldom does the practice of either paths impinge on personal freedom, on the contrary, both paths contain many keys that will unlock self-imposed limitations with all its ugly side-effects. The wisdom that can be extracted within each one are not so much "Truths" as in they more resemble "recipes" - hence a question like, 'Is this the Truth' becomes irrelevant. As with recipes, its rather silly to ask whether they contain any Truths - instead one ought to ponder whether they work or not, or will they bring forth the desired results? And the only way to fully grasp the workability of any given recipe is to 'bake the cake and eat it'. Obviously, as evident to many, there are a few here on this forum who have made it their mission to degrade Buddhist practitioners by labeling them dogmatic parrots and what not. Surely these individuals are decrying Buddhist recipes in the same manner as those who critique food without even realizing the fundamentals of how recipes come about, nor their purpose. Since i have not had the good fortune of practicing the Taoist arts, i cannot ascribe to its efficacy much, nor can i point to what its lacking, but insofar as Buddhism is concerned, its 'recipes', mostly driven by practitioners (like Vaj, for example), who, thru practice and insight, become like inspired Bakers who are largely interested in experimentations in the bakery, creating and making known to others the fruits of their hard work, and at the same time, based on their own reflective wisdoms respectively, both the Baker and the Buddhist (could be a Buddhist Baker too ) continually prove and improve upon their discoveries. Just reading recipe books does not make one a good Baker or Chef. In this sense you are absolutely correct - one should know when to lay down the 'books/names' and get down to business without too much attachment to dogma. One can indeed learn more about meditation in half hour of sitting practice than putting in a year's effort in studying meditation journals and other related doctrines. Of course, for those who are more academic or scholastically inclined and have the appetite to match, delving into the depths of the Pali Canon, for example, can be an inspirational journey in itself. The fact is not everyone shares the same excitement or even passing interest in Buddhist 'recipes' - just as in the culinary world, discussions about baking recipes will normally light up the eyes of Bakers only, and generally do not hold any thrill nor have the same sort of effect on an Asian Wok Chef in Tokyo Joe's Takeout. Being overly critical of any single thing do occasionally throw up some strange but valuable insights, but these moments are few and far between. Moreover, i have yet to see one statue erected in the name of a well-known critic. Minor philosophical considerations aside, i do tend to favor less confrontations, which leads me to conclude that perhaps more Philosophers ought to take up the art of Dessert-making....

the purpose of life to taste the fruits of wisdom while munching popcorn...

then its no matter for one who has 'gone beyond' to find a way home...

Understand what you post? You must be kidding right? Your experiences are only relevant to your little self, in your little coconut shell you call your world, and i see no reason why any person with a grain of sensibility would want to join you in that stuffy, cramped and murky-ish environment. No thanks. As for what you perceive to be my rambling accusations, well, at the very least i dont, by way of 'coloring' my words, imply that they are highly significant. IF i want to brush up on the subject of the Is-ness of things, there are volumes upon volumes of material out there available for perusal, written with more sense, dignity, taste, and respect for others. Now what makes you think your observation is so extra-original and philosophically sound (by posting in a different shade, you obviously feel its super-duper deep and infused with timeless wisdom eh?) that it warrants any reflection and serious introspection? Whatever colored glasses you are wearing, if i were you, i'd want to quickly remove them, in the event you become overly accustomed to the shade, and become so fixated in your own bias with which you view others as inauthentic and lacking in substance. Who knows, you might fancy wearing them so much that by now you have already forgotten you have them on. Just dont look in the mirror, in case you might get a sudden fright from not being able to immediately recognise the image staring back at you.

No offense but somehow i always find your retorts and rhetoric rather hypocritical and lacking. Here for example - you are formulating and putting into words what you yourself preach against doing. Personally i could not find anything original from it. One can walk into any respectable, and semi-respectable bookshop and find, with relative ease, the minimum of a shelf or two of books with contents that would kind of skip over the same rope as what you so proudly repeated here, and in color too! My my, you must be feeling chuffed with yourself Mr Tzu. If you are such an 'Is' guy, at least try to stay truer to your beliefs and be more original, instead of putting yourself across as some New Agey super-duper cool dude who is over and above all the older, mainstream traditions just because the names happen to contain the letters ISM at the end. Perhaps you ought to bring your brilliant philosophical mind to spread some authenticity in the other threads and teach some of the eager folks out there how not to fall for all the promises of instant, blissful transformations offered by the thousands of systems available out there, most of which, as always, also lack originality, and fearing for a lack in substance, latch on to the coat-tails of more exotic, ancient, proven spiritual traditions, creating some kind of mutant strain of disguised spirituality in the process. You might be delighted to know that many of these schools of New Thought are also enthusiastic supporters of your brand of philosophy. This must make you very proud indeed. Turning a blind eye to a very real crises that many are experiencing as a result of mixing and matching from borrowed traditions, with many under the 'trance' that more means faster 'enlightenment' or whatever term they want to delude themselves with, these professional salespeople with their glib tongues and quick wit continually capitalise on the current trend, and constantly churn up more and more sophisticated 'systems' and more advanced levels, trying to keep things new and fresh, thus ensuring a larger percentage of repeat business from the 'regulars' without having to dish out too much on marketing and PR - after all, nothing will close a sale surer and faster than personal testimonials and past-participant referrals, right? These are the real culprits out there, who have absolutely no qualms in squeezing people's hard-earned money in return for sharing 'proven systems' that promises to be cutting-edge stuff, but at the end of the day, under scrutiny, the students/suckers will still have to exert the personal effort, and in some cases, even more so than before the bloody 'system' was paid for and taken on board. And then some of these brilliant minds have the cheek to say, oh, its a process of co-creation between the student and the transmitter that ensures the success of whatever (transmissions i assume) - if its such a mutual thing, maybe those that call themselves transmitters ought to pay the receivers heh? After all, without the receivers, the circle cannot be completed, they brazenly announce, with hardly a twitch in them poker faces of theirs. Clearly there is trouble on deck, and too many 'sailors' are being drafted day after day, most of whom are fresh from college, running around pretending they are all captains of their own destiny after a short stint as 'deckhands'. This is a real problem, and could do with megadoses of your Most unsurpassed connection with Clarity. I would LOVE to see your righteous (and what you yourself deem the correct) wake-up call directed at these organizations and individuals instead. Go tell them everything is clear, everything "IS", and all will be well. Then when your energy is all expanded in doing this useful task, and the frustrations begin to subside as a result, you may once again become true to your words that you have great respect for your Buddhist 'brothers and sisters here on TTB'. (Talk is cheap, as they say). Wish you luck in your impending tirade, in response, which i await in awe. RSVP (having said all this, i take my hat off to you for your martial arts knowledge and years of training experience. the fun thing about it is you have disregarded the implications that traditional forms of MA, which i am assuming you practice, are, in essence, also another form of -Ism. Have you ever considered bringing your unique Clarity into that world, and initiate some kind of a westernized reform there, no? I am sure these established systems could also greatly benefit from your untainted insights) Greetings refunded.

Resting in a state beyond extremes, one sees stillness in movement, and movement in stillness. Unaffected by neither, flow is acknowledged. For this recognition to arise in the being, no stressful effort is needed. One is not required to achieve any particular state through performing any sets of particular actions, or thinking in certain specific ways, or needing to activate anything, or receiving any kind of transmissions. However, this also doesn't mean one does nothing at all or simply blank the mind, which only bring about laziness and stupor. Chasing one state while avoiding the other are actions in futility, for all things are known to the wise as ephemeral, like a mirage, a rainbow, or a trail of smoke seen from afar... the further one is, the more unchangingly still the smoke appears. The closer one gets, the more frenetic the movements appear, both of the smoke and of the mind, for then other things begin to factor in, like maybe its a massive fire, if so, what kind of fire is it, could there be someone trapped nearby, will i dial the Emergency line, and so on and so forth. Then when one arrives at the source of the activity itself, maybe its just a burning pile of damp grass, and when the wind blows the smoke directly into one's face, one sees there is nothing there to grasp - only an empty, harmless billow of smoke. The struggling tend to cease immediately thereupon. Imagine the potential angst prior to recognizing the source of the 'disturbance' for what it really is. There is a reminder in the sutras that we ought not to mistake a rope for a snake. This is very true. The perception of stillness, Isness, and all other kinds of busi-ness, is likely dependent on the distance from which one sees oneself. But when things are really seen for what they are, ideally in the absence of any external or internal interference like time, space, and unnecessary thinking, for example, this often puts an end for the need to either move or still the mind, for both are fundamentally dualistic extremes, and thus unsatisfactory. In order to perceive things directly, one of the most effective methods could be this: Just stop trying to grasp at, or avoid whatever arises in the mind's eye, for all things that come up to awareness will also subside back into the groundless but cognizant void of consciousness on their own accord, in direct alignment with the force behind the perception, until the next set of infinite combinations of thoughts and sense-perceptions again enable their recollection, whereby they remanifest, albeit this time round already transformed and transmutated with many other thought seeds in the interim, and so it goes on and on like this. Hence the Tatagatha observed, "Men are accustomed to state 'Is' or 'Is not', but for him who perceives wisely and according to the truth how all things are brought about in the world, for such a one there is no 'Is not'. And for him who perceives wisely and in truth, seeing how things of the world perish, for such a one there is no 'Is'. 'Everything Is' is one of the extremes - 'Nothing Is' is the other... I teach between the two, the truth of Interdependent Originations."

Why thank you kind sir! Tis the murky waters of the mind that make them pants look hot! :lol:

I think i get the drift Ninpo Spent a year in Hong Kong - visited Macau twice. The first visit was meant to be a day trip. A day turned into a week. The second visit is simply history forcing repetition. The food... man, heavenly, and the flowers... - nah, lets not say too much (ninja with sunshades!)

I think the main issue in abstaining from meat-eating is in relation to limited availability of alternative protein sources, since protein is generally considered to be quintessential for optimum health. I was recently made aware of Quinoa, which is supposedly an excellent alternative protein source, and was wondering if anyone here can help in verifying its 'WOWful' benefits? They are meant to be highly nutritious when sprouted - of course all sprouts are generally thought to be nutrient-rich, but i was told Quinoa is THE sprout to beat in terms of nutritious value. Any input/personal accounts into this? Btw i'm no vege convert, although over time have noticed the body beginning to tell me less and less meat is required, and am starting to heed this call. There is definitely no conscious, effortful moral or spiritual considerations involved here. Hence the interest in Quinoa, i guess...

Larry Jensen... how interesting. Taking his involvement with Mind Dynamics and (subsequently) Lifespring into consideration, its no wonder he has evolved his craft. It would also explain his 'charisma'.

separate and one like a sliced loaf of white bread sitting on the shelf...

Your implied observations suddenly made me think how much i miss home. Ninpo, you're being a naughty boy.... To answer your question, it might be helpful to reflect how lotuses seem to thrive in muddy waters - now, this is not hinting at all that the monks are the lotuses, btw - in all fairness, everything is interdependent, right? haha (i can see TJL cringing and grimacing in aversion to this word!) "Within the mud the lotuses grow and flower... thus the lotuses reveal the true nature of the muddy pools; The muddy pools, likewise, reflect and reveal the true nature of the lotuses. Each nurturing the other, as if in a dance of simple, natural unfolding... and neither is good or bad - alas tis beings' discriminatory biases that bring forth the myriad things."

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6983074709191796496# Anyone watched this video yet? Found it interesting. Quite lengthy - 35 mins. Bio of P. Russell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Russell_(author) enjoy

on these marbles - card? Yes why not.. its just a game to while away time...

Thank you Dwai. Inspirational, to say the least.

Perfectly logical conclusion, imo...

He could well be an idiot - i did not know him that well then, and still do not him too well, so you may be correct in your assumption. He was not a Teacher though, just a 'senior' practitioner who had the misfortune of being selected (he could have volunteered, idk - in that case, he could well be an idiot ) to be encamped for a year to look after a group of novice one-year retreatants/nutcases by virtue of him having completed one prior. "It will pass" is not a standard Buddhist thing. Everyone says this, all over the world, in different cultures but all in the same meaning. Doctors say this all the time. So do priests from all the different faiths. It just points to the simple process of watching something fade, change, transform and mutate. What do you say when something in your environment feels as though its a little stubborn, where you get the sense that its just about to shift, but not as quickly as you wish it would? Its no big deal. It does not point to idiocy. A breakthrough encompasses the onset of new experiences, but does not constitute the totality of the term. It would be quite foolish to view all new experiences as breakthroughs. Negative experiences are not considered to be breakthroughs - overcoming them would be though. Generally speaking, breakthroughs denote some form of realization, or achievement, or having moved from stuckness to a freer state. Having said this, realizations, achievements, and freer states do tend to give rise to a sense of elation. These states in themselves mean nothing; left alone, they will dissipate, like all other things. Its the feelings of elation which attach themselves to these states that create the illusion of needing and wanting to add more to the states than what they are intrinsically. And this generally led to the creation of the word "breakthrough" - as a convenient and polite way to tell others of one's experience without appearing to be overly clever or something to that effect. But you would already know all this Mr Gold.. ... ... ... Off topic - apologies to the OP.

The first and only time i had a similar 'occurrence' was back in '96. I remember the year clearly because it was during a one-year retreat that it decided to show up. I was doing some rather intense visualizations then. It baffled me. I thought it was some kind of a breakthrough, and was feeling quite pleased with myself. All thru that evening, and during the early part of the next day, i was wearing a smug look on my face. Did not think it was that obvious until the Retreat Guide pulled me to one side and hinted that he knew something had appeared to me by saying, "Whatever you think it is, its not...". That got me curious, so i related the drama to him, and he then told me that its something that is frequently perceptible during those times when we make a conscious, concerted effort to move the consciousness/awareness around. Its a sign of adjustment, because the awareness is also like a muscle. Alas, my joy was short-lived... I do not practice Taoist energetic works, so i cannot ascertain if its an identical thing. It did sound similar though when i read your query. Wish you the very best in your practice.

You know what DP - what you said did not even cross my mind haha - good of you to mention it though. I did a quickie search and this is what i found - http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_syllables_does_the_word_child_have We live and learn i suppose... ... ... ... Where ev'ryone wins? A game where no one loses How 'bout Solitaire?