C T

An overview of Rangtong and Shentong, Emptiness and Buddha Nature (from Traleg Rinpoche - Buddhist scholar/teacher): http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2003/fall/emptinessandbuddhanature.html

Its not that there is disagreement. The basic premise of Buddhism will always remain true, no matter what. The appearance of disagreement stems from the different levels of individual realizations (or lack of), thats all. Those who attain fully really have no more need to say or do anything, least of all to while away the time here!

I do not see where the controversy is. Both hope and gain arises in dependence on the nature of grasping and averting thoughts. Grasping and aversion logically requires the birth of self. When there is a birth of a self, there must also be a death of a self. When there is no birth of a self, logically, there is no death of a self. One does not hope to achieve or attain non-thought. The idea is not to stir or compound the thoughts as they arise and subside, or to put it another way, be watchful not to add unnecessary layers onto them, as they come and go. It is the tendency to cling or chase after pleasant arisings and reject unpleasant arisings that the notion of suffering is born in oneself. The nature of delusion is such. Thoughts in themselves are simply neutral displays within the expanse of the nature of mind. If there is no clinging and no averting, the self does not arise. There is still actions, but no actor... still thoughts, but no thinker. Without a self, seeking and hopes have no meaning. Only as traces of the self diminish does giving up hopes and aspirations find completeness.

Maybe a squeak of liquid teflon might do the tricK? Nice... enjoyed reading this!

Enjoyed your contribution as usual, T Meow. Thanks! Perhaps its the middling way that muddles a person's health? The Middle Way is balance, and balance is always worthwhile. Just a thought...

Yeah, a bit drawn out the first 30 minutes. Glad you found the last bit interesting.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts here, Kali. Makes plenty of sense what you have said. Jesus and the fig tree... reminded me of a young lad many years ago, who could wither (gradually of course, over a week or so) plants and small trees simply by putting both his palms close to them. It came naturally to him, and as he grew older, he honed his power and became a healer. Heard lately that he is now in semi-permanent retreat somewhere far away...

Yes, in my understanding, all phenomena is influenced by Interdependent Origination, as you say, but alas, you and I can never fully grasp the process of its influence, because in order to exhaustively grasp it, the mind cannot be engaged. Ambiguity arises in dependence on mind's engagement. It cannot be otherwise. The moment thoughts arise, limitations arise - you are well aware of this, Stig, because you have alluded to (in the Warriors' thread) how thoughts are always already happening in the past, which is pretty exact. This is one way of looking at Interdependent Origination: The Buddha said we create the world with our thoughts. When thoughts arise, manifestations are sensed. The sensing of manifestations give birth to wonder. Wonder creates desire. Desire creates self. Self creates ideas. Ideas create analyses. Analyses create assertions. Assertions create concepts. Concepts create dualistic views. Dualistic views create clinging and aversion. Clinging and aversion creates suffering. Suffering creates needs. Needs create thoughts. And thoughts create the world. (This cycle is ever-present as potential. The idea is that it happens uni-directionally, and does not require any ground, except the mind. Since mind is ever empty and cognizant at the same time, it can be said that mind is both the beginning and the ending of this cycle. It can manifest, and it will, when thoughts arise. Conversely, it can cease, the very instant thoughts cease. The more refined the meditation/cultivation of seeing the gaps in thoughts, and resting therein, the more the cycle shrinks, until such time when the gaps become more prevalent and lasting, whereby ultimately the cycle ceases, and returns to a single point to the middle of the individual's mandala. Due to the irrevocability of the law of I.O., even when one 'attains' to this single point, there is no assurance there that its the ultimate attainment, for at any moment, there could be a stirring of the subtlest thoughts, and just like ripples in a pool, the whole cycle potentially begins again, from being faintly perceptible to grossly perceptible. This is why mindfulness training is advocated in Buddhism - it lets the trainee experience, thru deep seeing, how this dependently originated cycle is occurring in each moment. If the mind is trained, the moment the stirrings are observed, the observer quickly checks himself or herself, and return to the non-distracting point. Gradually, this observation can become habitual, which, by then, hopefully the need to consciously return the mind to non-distraction can be let go of. When non-distraction becomes unshakeable, the cycle will finally disintegrate, and one is said to have attained liberation from the cycle of birth and death. This is the Buddhist version of ultimate enlightenment. By this time, of course, where is the need to ponder and expound endlessly on the finer points of which tradition is better or worse? Everything returns to nothing, and from nothing, everything arises. Try to grasp this, and at that very instant, the world of phenomena appears vividly before the senses.) This is the reason why Buddha refuses to assert or negate any views. To quote His words: "Men are accustomed to state 'Is' or 'Is not', but for him who perceives wisely and according to the truth how all things are brought about in the world, for such a person there is no 'Is not...'. And for him who perceives wisely and in truth how all things in the world perish, for him there is no 'Is...'. Everything 'Is...', is one of the extremes; Nothing 'Is...", is the other extreme. I teach, between the two, the truth of Interdependent Originations." Go explore, and experience for yourselves, He implored. Find out if what has been taught can be accepted. If not, just chuck it away. Just do not waste all your time debating on forums (nah, He did not say this!! Sometimes i do wish He decreed it though... )

Indeed you are right, Ms Kate! Mother's Day... occasionally i remind my nieces and nephews, and my son, that every day is Mother's day... lest they get complacent. I said they ought to do something special for their moms every single day, but would they take heed? Yaa, whatever, they think to themselves. Tell them they are being taken to the games store, and instantly, as if being zapped, they stand to attention! Funny world... these days.

This appears so only when mind arises as a result of mundane contemplation, as means to convey a picture or an idea of some proportion or value. To lend palpability perhaps. To know the taste of saltiness, we need not drink the whole ocean - all that is required is to taste a grain of salt, as the saying goes. With mind at rest, where is the need to fathom such unfathomable imaginations? Only in discussions and debates are such ideas used as a way to narrow the ambiguity of description... for example, someone could describe the world as round, and is then asked by someone else (who already has an idea of what roundness is) to describe how round is that round... and from this very simple conveyance of an idea, things could lead to much unnecessary complexities. Tis much better to let the mind stay home. A galavanting mind can be good at times, but very so often, the diversity of the 10,000 things, which comprises ideas, views, opinions and all phenomena for that matter, arises because of this unsettledness of mind.

Wonderful idea!

Hi Jenn... I am wondering here... do you like to read? There are some books you could get that might just inspire you enough to make the changes that you are seeking. Due to the over-crowded nature of all the thoughts that is passing thru your mind at the moment (like being stuck inside a crowded elevator?), sometimes getting fresh perspectives on matters could be quite literally a breath of fresh air for you! Here are a couple of books that might lend you some much-needed space: http://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Fall-Apart-Difficult/dp/1570623449 http://www.amazon.com/Knee-Deep-Grace-Extraordinary-Teaching/dp/0963078461 One of the author's short life story here: http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2003/spring/schmidt_jenkins_dipa_ma.html Wishing you all the best blessings on your road to recovery, Jenn. I hope one day soon you will see that challenges in life can be gateways to immense freedom. But we need to learn to let go... the more we can do this, the greater the freedom. We can do this mentally because freedom sometimes is not a physical thing - its more a mental condition that can be be cultivated. Its like some prisoners who find grace while behind bars... they experience transformation. Even though physically they are still confined, spiritually and mentally, they become free, and no longer suffer the bondage and torment of being inside the walls. I hope you get what i am trying to say here. Prayers are with you.

Yes. Moreover, it turns people's focus out to external symbols and manifestations, which is basically another form of distraction. Spirituality, according to popular opinions, is about letting go of externals, as a start, which helps to direct the focus inwards, and eventually learning to even let the inward distractions and subtler clingings go as well. So maybe this rep thing could be useful as a tool for self-investigation? I mean, if i am biased towards some idea, tradition or person and go around clicking negs on posts deemed 'anti-my-own-beliefs', and then one day realize, out of sheer honest frustration that the only person who is affected by bias is me myself, it will definitely force me to question my own 'rep' then, and ask why such lop-sided attitudes are stuck inside me in the first place.

Cool out! So you have appreciated in value! See, i always knew there were good-hearted people on this forum...

I am wondering if the plusses and minuses cancel each other out? Like my friend has about 15 minuses (clearly a target, or even a conspiracy?), but lately he also got a few pluses... would it not make a bit of sense if this rep thing could go up and down like stock values in the exchanges? (just a thought!)

Would be nice if you had something decent to contribute, instead of mindlessly resorting to ridicule and sarcasm. If there is nothing worthwhile to share, or to counter argue, why not practice a bit of restraint and just keep quiet? Silence can be quite helpful at times. I am not saying you are making too much noise, but its really quite draining to see so-called Taoists reducing themselves to sarcastic fools and idiots by taking cheap shots at a tradition they do not have a respectful understanding of. Its fine if you do not want to understand, but at least try to follow the words of advice of your sages and apply a bit of their wisdom in your relationship with others, even if these others are merely strangers to you.

Thanks for sharing, MH! Good to know you a bit better... ...... ........ ............ I finished secondary education (equivalent to high school i think) at 18. Could have gone on to college or university but i knew then that i was not big into academic pursuits. Spent half a year bumming around, living the good life, hanging out with the surfing/diving bums in Malaysia. Out of the 6 months, at least half of it was spent in the water. When i returned home from living on the islands off the East Coast, i was so dark my mom refused to acknowledge that i was her son! Settled down a bit, and enrolled in Tech College and got a Dip. in Electronics. Not sure what to do with it, so threw that in the bin. The only electronically-significant thing i did after getting the qualifications was installing a battery-operated light on my bicycle which incorporated a high/low beam. Walla! The only one of its kind in the country. Unfortunately the idea did not catch fire, so i binned that as well. At that time (1979) Malaysians suddenly got very keen in motivational/self-improvement seminars and some very smart people had the foresight to import a handful of really dynamic speakers/trainers from the US to set up a foundation for the growth of these programs in the country. I had the slight fortune to attend one of these seminars, managed to create a bit of stir with the local trainers (whose English was really not very good) and they offered me a job to manage one of their branch offices in my hometown as the guy who was there, the same one who recruited me into the program, was leaving to start his own Mandarin-based company selling Mandarin-based seminars!! It was indeed a very profitable time for that line of business then, as every class (averaging 36 participants per class/week - each paying an average of 400 myr dollars) was sold out. The company i worked for had its HQ in Kuala Lumpur and 3 branch offices (centers) in other states. So every calendar month there would be one seminar for each of the centers, and annually there would be a big conference/dinner/dance held at different resort locations to celebrate all the success stories the 'graduates' would have experienced. Loads of excitement, hugging, pats on the back.... and also its fair share of scandals! Anyway, i was with the outfit for about 5 years, and when i left the scene, had amassed a small fortune, not from the salary they paid me, but from smartly investing some of the money in the stock market with the help of my dad, whom some here already know was a stock analyst. I was only 24 then. Life was good. Somehow, the desire to pursue higher studies never crossed my mind after that. Any regrets? Guess not. Although i am not sure how i got from there to being a Chef now... Hmm, maybe the Tao is indeed mysterious. Of course, there were plenty of adventures in between, but really, it would be too boring to go into it all.

Precisely.

This is the best forum to extract some meaningful answers to that which you hope to understand. I am quite sure very soon there will be plenty of worthy responses for you to consider. Enjoy your time here, surfingbudda. Wishing you all the best on your quest.

is a load to bear the same as a bear to load? Both just as heavy...

One of the hallmarks of SW-ship, in my understanding, is the ability to acknowledge one's limitations with a kind of relentless honesty, and then use this knowledge as a guide on one's way. Once this knowing is in place, there is no room for self-deception, and we all can identify how anti-growth self-deception can be. If one can be brutally honest that one is a fool, and learn to fully accept that, then this in itself is potentially the key to wisdom. Its when fools pretend not to see their foolishness, or act as if they are anything but, and in the process live a life that constantly demands them to upkeep this illusion, that's when obstacles begin compounding, until such time when/if situations begin to ask for honest appraisal of oneself, suddenly one is hit with the realization that one no longer knows where or how the mess began in the first place. The unravelling process then requires so much more effort. So at the very start, its good to cultivate this as a foundation - having done so, a lot of grief can be prevented. This may sound a bit crazy, but i think Homer Simpson is a good example of one who fully accepts that he is a fool. Not saying that he is a spiritual warrior by default, but someone like him has a much greater chance of excelling at it if he happens to choose this particular calling. Once in awhile, he displays a kind of brilliance that is second to none . Another fictional character who would make a great spiritual warrior, in my opinion, is Pooh. Or Charlie Brown... On a more realistic level... Its easy to think of SWship in terms of people who are in the 'spiritual' spotlight often, but often again, there are many individuals who are just as 'spiritually' tough without being conventionally associated with mainstream spiritualism as such - these remarkable individuals have not claimed to be anything other than one who has the will to stand up for what they believe to be the righteous truth, and does so without resorting to any forms of violence, be it physical or otherwise, in defense of their principles and values. Someone mentioned Gandhi, who, in my mind, is a prime example. What about Mandela? Or Aung San Suu Kyi? Naturally, these are all hi-profile people cited here; oftentimes, when we look around us, there are many ordinary folks who can also be seen to display all these same extraordinary qualities, and they can be found in any calling. Common people, who choose to act righteously in the face of impossible odds, and then simply go about their way without making any fuss about it... such self-effacing demeanor is mostly what makes them anything but common.

In my mind, Frank Serpico epitomizes some of the ideals of a 'spiritual' warrior. (Serpico: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico ) He never backed down on his commitment to uphold what he believed was good and right - no matter what price he had to pay to stand by his beliefs. He was in the Police force, but not of it, so to speak. When Hollywood decided to recreate his life-story, Al Pacino, who was to play the lead role, invited Serpico to stay with him for a while. During a conversation, Al Pacino asked him how he managed to remain so resolutely determined in the face of such overwhelming odds, to which Serpico replied, "Well, Al, I don't know. I guess I will have to say it would be because... if I didn't, who would I be when I listened to a piece of music?" Simply brilliant! (Have read the book, and watched the movie many times... still find it highly inspiring)

Its a typical 'man thing' you say... well, you could just be right, Kate! Scotty said, "Surrender", so maybe its Man's duty to surrender unreservedly and the Woman's role to embrace this offering? Hmm, my guess is sparks might fly! One could go as far as the wings of visualization can carry! Limitless potential awaits! Ragged? Totally... Who wants to retreat when the flow can be so exquisite? Immerse away! If you are into tantrism, check out the manual, "The Intermediate Practices of Vajrayogini". Comes highly recommended. http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=14339