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It appears that Udana 8.3 speaks not of 'beyond the beyond' - what it points to is that dualistic views tend to create the notions of this and that, and in turn, this gives rise to further mentations, which give rise to clinging and aversion, and so the circle goes. Once removed from this cycle, through right understanding, notions like the above (beyond/beyond) collapses. When investigating the self that looks for notions, some interesting insights do occur. The Buddha encourages such investigations, as opposed to stating unalterable and fixed philosophies, statements and facts. In the above Sutta, the Buddha also points to the common teaching that says this arises, therefore that arises. If this does not arise, that does not arise. In layman's terms, what i think He means is that if there is seeking, the mind must first create a lack, or feel some kind of unease to necessitate and justify the seeking. If the seeking is dropped, then emancipation itself becomes legless. Why look for emancipation when one have no mental constructs around the dualistic ideas or feelings of inner discontent? He further suggests that when the self is understood right at the beginning to be empty of permanent selfhood, then all the possible effects of this wrong view is cut already at source. Then there will be total absence of any struggle or need to locate a self to go beyond the beyond. No self = no suffering, no discontent, no birth, no death = Real self (with no self-reference). Emancipated from the mental fabrications of suffering at the very root itself. If this is seen, then even Nirvana does not have the power to lead one astray. Otherwise, the Buddha says that after getting some subtle realizations, there may be some who become trapped by such, and could once again return to dualistic grasping and wrong views as a result.

If you seriously believe that we are 'down in the valley of shadows and death', then i think that if this place is really shaping up to resemble a hair salon, as you say, would that not be a marked improvement in comfort levels? Not sure about you, but years ago, when i still had sufficient hair to warrant the occasional visit to the barbers, it always felt great post-visit, so such places are not as 'unspiritual' as you seem to think, Gerard. The same, i feel, could be said if one suddenly ends up in a Vat. Now, Wat... that's an altogether different kettle of fish... Trivia - the Heidelberg Tun/vat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidelberg_Tun

R O F Funny geezer you are, Mister Songs!

Here are two very precise articles that could help in part answer your question. You can form your own opinion thenceforth. http://www.buddhanet.net/wings_d.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhi

ditto.

Indeed, who experiences, when the 'who' itself is also simultaneously the fruit of another set(s) of ongoing, imprintable layer(s) of experiences. What happens when these experiences are not focalized/scrutinized/localized? What is left?

Ebb and flow. Fluidity. Impermanence. Yielding towards the middle...and upon arriving, empty spaciousness that encapsulates fullness.

knot-holes played by wind making groovy, earthy sounds huge didgeridoos...

Thanksgiving is due... happy holidays Folks!

Agree a 100 percent! The essential energy underlying anger and joy is the same... both are fleeting. Its when they are seen as unchanging or unchangeable that avoidance and clinging arises. Its this attitude that can be worked upon and used as a little vehicle to get one further. There is a place where these energies can be utilized as one utilizes any other forms of energy, in other words, energetic displays can be a source of liberation, if they're viewed and understood correctly... in this way, one does not get tricked or blinded. There is a valid reason behind working with wrathful deities in the higher tantric paths.

In its most, most basic form? Find some way to restore one's foreskin. Cant get any more basic than that. (bad joke, i know. I am sorry, Strawdog. But then, all is Tao, right? ) Serious note... In its most fundamental aspect, i'd venture to say this: Man is constantly insatiable in their search for meaning - there is the hunger of the senses, like an itch that never can be reached at. This gives rise to desire (the metaphor being the 10k things). The Tao shows the futility of propagating these seeds of desires. Waste of energy. Just give up searching. Simply let things be, and the seeking will subside. Even if it does not, dont worry. Non-subsiding is simply the other side of subsiding. The essence of both is the same. When this is realized, all anxieties fall away. When anxieties fall away, there is peace and serenity. Even if peace does not come, and serenity is just wishful thinking, dont worry. At the very least, there will be a diminished sense of anxiousness about things. Even if this sense of anxiousness persist, dont worry. At the very least, Nature will still be saying Yes, no matter how calm or distraught one is. Either you sink with distraught, or you swim in calmness... Because there is constant Flow, both are essentially equal in baseless substance. In all the manifestations of the universe, the longing for unity is ever-present. When this longing reaches its full potential, expansion and diversity again manifests. Let them all go. Freedom. The Way.

Look at how Nature is in the winter. Try to emulate that. Don't do too much. Sleep more, for winter is a time of 'close'... a season of withdrawal, of in-folding. The lesser the activity the better. Even mighty trees find winter to be a good time to rest their roots. Same for humans (whatever roots mean to the individual).

Supposing the people of this world all assembled together around a massive pool filled with man-eating sharks and killer crocs, and there is a massive reward of love, compassion and 5 million bucks for whoever is brave enough to dive in and swim from one side of the pool to the other... would you do it? Assuming you got pushed in - would the rewards still be at the top of your list of priorities? Suffice to say you would do your darndest to make it out of the pool intact, and then the burning desire would set in to find out who the hell pushed you in. Just imagine that you would have won the top prize after making it out of the pool... would you then be thankful for being pushed in? Or would you still want to exact revenge? Many of us are metaphorically in this pool, yet we have not been able to get our priorities right. Often, we think of our enemies as detrimental to our peace of mind and happiness... but if we reflect deeper, it is our perceived 'enemies' that gives meaning to the desire for peace of mind and happiness. Its good to see things in perspective sometimes. Personally, whenever i encounter human conflict, i have the tendency to give in, and let the other side take victory, and i do this gladly. I am willing to take whatever blame or ill-thoughts as my own doing, and give whatever is right and good to the opposing party. This way, there is nothing in me that they could suck off of, so they tend to leave me alone after the fact. They think they have won, but in truth, both parties are happy out. The main thing is that the conflict is resolved peacefully, which is basically what i know is the best way forward anyway, so there is no hesitation for me to offer myself as the cause of it. I do this because i know myself well enough to understand that by accepting the blame, the situation invariably is still within my control - i can then choose to pacify these things in my own mind without also having the added mess of dealing with the conflict in the opposite party's mind as well. The potentially explosive or bad situation often deflates soon after. At the very least, it does so in my own thinking... i get to let go of every possible cause for further aggravation even before the situation gets a chance to escalate.

Okay... got that edited verse, 3Bob. It may not matter to others who can intuit your thoughts, but i cannot, hence the request. I do not possess no gift/siddhi that will allow me to assume what is on your mind. Dig? Cheerio!

One man who has made it his life's calling to show the way to break the walls down, lambast the obstacles, and live as an example of peace and acceptance -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mKJGOiOQBE&feature=related

Be nice to know what sort of sense you are implying here, 3Bob. Your one-liners have been rather baffling of late. Sorry to say so. Not sure about others, but its hard to respond when one is left guessing what you are actually trying to convey. Can you be more specific? That would really help. Seriously. And i am not looking for scriptural texts here either... merely wish to hear your thoughts and reflections, things that are inside your head, as you write these comments. I know you are responding to VJ's post, but as i can also read your response, i just feel it to be more comfortable when the possibilities of misunderstanding your single-lined comments are reduced to a bare minimum. thank you!

A slippery bar of soap perhaps? Clasp it too tight, and sure enough, its slippery nature will come into play. Just because it has a slippery nature does not mean it cannot be gently nurtured into remaining present and useful. It is also a state to be expressed through practice, from which old, stale patterns are gradually ousted thru the cultivation of perfected virtues and wisdoms, with the aim of leading to habituation. Liberation, i see it, is not, as many seem to erroneously think, some goal or purpose of life. It is also not a higher state of being, for to be liberated, in the deepest sense, means even the being-ness of being disappears - so what remains after that liberation? Sure the person is still very much here, but the identification, the constitution of personhood would have been so transformed and expanded that only the continuum of the experience of liberation remain, without a 'sense' that comes forth to cherish or claim any idea that liberation is being felt or attained. The more one is comfortable in expressing this liberation, the more stable its revelation. Ultimately, there remains only one continuous, seamless expression. Along the way, there will be a strong intuitive feeling of I AMness, but eventually, this too is released into the ever-flowing expression, not of some state, but simply the act of expressing it becomes the liberation... then there is no more distinction...no state to be liberated from, nor any to be liberated into, because the self simply is no more, forgotten completely. Some thoughts...

- double post -

Perhaps the purpose of life is to do the things we can to make life purposeful, and for those things we cannot do or effect, to say feck it, just have to leave it for later.... Happiness is in the going and the doing, maybe. And liberation... does it really presupposes the attitude of being trapped, or does it fundamentally presupposes that indeed we are already free, and the things and ideas we build around this concept are precisely the things that block us from seeing it? Maybe this is where the term blockhead comes from? I dunno... just some thoughts.

I think you will like it. Here is the scene where the lines were taken from: _/\_

"POWDER" The movie (1995). Exceptionale! Lines from it: Powder: "She didn't go someplace.. your wife. I felt her go. Not away, just out... everywhere." -------------------------- Lindsey: Its hard to believe that, all of that. Powder: Its because you have this spot that you can't see past. My grams and gramps had it, the spot where they were taught they were disconnected from everything. Lindsey: So that's what they'd see if they could? That they're connected? Powder: And how beautiful they really are. And that there's no need to hide, or lie. And that its possible to talk to someone without any lies, with no sarcasms, no deceptions, no exaggerations or any of the things that people use to confuse the truth. Lindsey: I don't know a single person who does that.

Since this is an invitation to philosophize, i would suggest that true harmony and peace lies in the ability to be cool with whatever conditions are on the outside, which happens to be nothing more than a reflection of what we mostly feel inside, anyway. If we are cool on the inside, then the sage-ness is there already... no matter where we are, this sage-ness will be present. Without this inner feeling, its hard to envisage that a person could live in peace for an extended period away from the usual distractions of the lifestyle that one has already been used to. Speaking of being okay inside, i am reminded of the saying - One can take CowTao away from the pastures, but one cannot take the pastures away from CowTao.. ..... or something like this. Tranquility can very much be a mental condition. Yes, outer tranquility can sometimes lend opportunities to hone the inner scapes of the mind. Such familiarizations, using the outer to tame or pacify the inner, can often yield the much needed space so that one gradually sees the weaving of one in to the other. Should such a merger be successful, then outer conditions will cease to be something to escape from. The need to do so would have become rather insignificant, and it becomes almost tedious to even contemplate any attempt to be anywhere other than where one Is.

Hitler the person will never be born again. He is gone forever. What is re-born are the traits that together made up this being named Hitler. For as long as ignorance and cruelty exists somewhere out there, collectively, or somewhere inside a person, individually, some of Hitler's essence, unfortunately, lives on in this way. This is one way of seeing how karma is perpetuated. In an ideal world situation, if one day a big shift happens and all beings 'awaken' to their perfect nature, that is when all traces of Hitler's less-than-noble traits vanish. Alternatively, each individual can learn to overcome their own ignorance now, and gradually wipe the dust off their own eyes. When all the dust is gone, it naturally follows that all mental defilements, which ding dongs between the extremes of good and evil, will be wiped away. Cleared of these mental afflictions, one becomes serenely unaffected by all the peripheral movements happening within or without. No longer swayed by the illusive, impermanent nature of all mental states, one returns to the still point. At this juncture, there will be no struggle. When there is no struggle, one becomes neither victim nor victor, because one no longer depend/need such labels to validate one's existence. There is mention somewhere that karma is cause and effect/action and re-action. Well this is only part of what constitutes Karma - Karma is quite complex, and is much more than simple cause and effect. At the more basic level, thoughts carry the seeds of Karma. In the even subtler levels, intentions too can give rise to Karma. Imagine little single-ringed ripples on a lake... which then enlarges slowly to ever-bigger ripples and so on. Intent works in almost the same fashion - it contains energy which can be compounded to give rise to emotional force, thru to the acting out of these forces. Take the analogy of a pendulum as an example: When the pendulum is completely still, it is full of potential... the moment something lends energy to it, it moves, either to the left or to the right... if it moves left, it will accumulate enough energy in the movement to the left to force it to swing to the right, albeit at a slightly reduced margin. At the end of the swing to the right, it again gathers energy to swing to the other side, again with a slightly reduced margin, until it finally loses all inertia, and rests in the middle again as potential. In some ways, mind is also like this... it exists as potential always, until something stirs it, and mind is born. When there are no stirrings, there is no mind - only potential of mind. The tendency to stir this mind is very strong in most of us, due to the forces of habit. We seem to like to feed the mind with a lot of thoughts due to various factors... imaginations, fears, insecurities, doubts, projections, compensations etc. We indulge in such activities due to basic ignorance of our true nature, which is undefiled. Spiritual practices are very good in that it helps us to reconcile the made-up aspect of our nature with that intrinsically pure nature within us, which, hopefully, will lead to the end of all dualistic and delusional notions of what we are in reality. The practice of meditation, over years of mindful awareness of when discursive thoughts occur, helps greatly to habituate retuning the mind to recognize its own pure nature. In the example of the pendulum given above, we can allude to meditation as a practice that allows us to heighten the sense of when the pendulum starts to move, and thru this awakened awareness, we can choose not to feed the energy of the movement, thereby reducing or negating its power thus hastening its return to the stillness of the center, which is rest, or complete equilibrium. This discussion between some learned Buddhists can help shed some light on the notions of Karma: http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2007/spring/forum-karma.html