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I do not see in what way, and why, he is wrong. I dont think he was. If, as you say, he is at stage 4, this would mean his insights are limited, but valid, in a sense, to what unfolds for him at that stage. For example, he is yet to see stage 5, so he would not be able to express a wider view that where his understanding is at that time, but that, however, does not make his views wrong. You ought to have seen this too, Xabir. Its quite a challenge for non-students of Buddhism to grasp a reality where body, thoughts and memories are not a reality, and where such are not within the scope of consciousness, since for this group, sense perceptions, self and perceived reality are quite tightly woven together. To expect them to see beyond this, into how such a view can be expanded infinitely, may not be suitable for certain mindsets.

Thanks for sharing, John. Compared to a year ago, its very clear from your notes that you have matured in your views, so congratulations! Those practices are more like toys, meant to distract, comfort, sooth and pacify those who never stop looking. Moreover, they do not take dabblers/practitioners to the same end... au contraire. Meditation is good! Its good because it means getting used to a feeling of 'one taste' for all that comes into one's field of awareness. One taste.... these two words were my cue for many years on the Insight Meditation path, and they worked to bring me back to mindfulness each time distractions set in. Brilliant progress, and well done!

I am curious... is this the same attitude you have for your parents?

The challenge to grow and expand one's boundaries is to learn to understand and love that/those which we think we cannot or are unable to relate to, be it in this world, or the past world, or the one to come. Key to nirvana? As VJ said, its not as simple as you would like to think. Conversely, its also not very complex. That's the good news. The 'bad' news is we wont find out if we are actually holding the 'right' key until we approach the bardo of dying and death.. this is why a lifetime of practice and mindfulness, as encouraged by the Buddha and all subsequent Buddhist teachers with integrity, to return again and again to non-distraction, remains the most practical, assured option for many. The full measure of loving oneself is the degree to which we are ok with 'losing' oneself. Without this ok, it gets hard when difficult situations are met, and then people crumble under the weight of the tightness with which they cling to themselves, finding it almost impossible to let go of pain, guilt and tormenting emotions. This is the cause. The effect? Its not that difficult to figure out. Naturally, for most people, they tend not to think too much about this matter of 'losing' the self too much, cos for most people, it feels as though life is always rosy, and death, or the nearness of death, appears to be so far away. If only it was....

Its great to see that you have had glimpses into the true nature of suchness. However, it is quite a risk to implore others to forsake basic training in the necessary steps. Methods are still crucial, no matter how high one's realizations, because it is very easy to get distracted. Many senior practitioners and some masters, even after years of training to maintain the 'View', can sometimes falter and lose their balance, simply because they have somehow ignored certain basic precepts. Of course, if you insist on speaking on the ultimacy of things, then on that level, actually not only are there no steps, no truths nor no non-truths, there isn't even a 'you' to attain anything, or not attain, for that matter. Nor is there any liberation, nor any moment that can be experienced as a 'now' moment, since to do so, it necessitates a 'self' to experience such. Since we are relatively here, very much in body, it might be wise not to dismiss certain fundamental practices, and keep doing these, until distractions can be securely eliminated. Guru Padmasambhava said, "Even though your View is as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour".

Hi Manitou, Its no trouble. Happy that you made the connection. I can see you are a very considerate and kind person, displaying many bodhisattvic qualities. This is wonderful! It does not matter what you practice... what matters is with what kind of 'eyes' we have and use when we view others. If our 'eyes' are bright and clear, then when we view others, no matter how others are, then we will see the fundamental nature behind all sentience. This is why in Buddhism, training one's own mind is paramount. A trained mind can cut through many delusions, and reveal things that otherwise can remain hidden from normal sense perceptions. Many Mahayana and Vajrayana practitioners rely on Atisha's ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atisha ) Seven Points of Mind Training, a reliable source of teaching that leads to a great many realizations when diligently understood and practiced. Since you had asked for more specific teachings within Buddhism that can help transform a person, i thought it might be a good idea to follow up my previous post by sharing this with you. Hope you will get some useful pointers from this. http://www.kagyu-asia.com/t_7points_atisha.html and this: http://www.unfetteredmind.org/mindtraining/introduction.php

From Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche: "There are different vehicles for shravakas (lay Buddhists), bodhisattvas (stream enterers) and followers of Secret Mantra. Each have their respective precepts, trainings and samayas (vows). When condensed to the essence, the very heart of all these samayas is contained in the four samayas of the Dzogchen view - without inherent existence, all-pervasiveness, one taste and spontaneous perfection - and the three root samayas of Body, Speech and Mind. Vajrayana practitioners (ought to strive to) abide by these 3 sets of principles. For example, we take refuge at the very beginning of any empowerment, and will have therefore received the refuge precepts of the shravakas. After that, we form the bodhicitta (the wish or intention to attain liberation for the benefit of sentient beings) resolve and thus receive the bodhisattva precepts. As for Secret Mantra, the moment we drink the 'samaya water', the drops of water from the conch shell given out before the actual empowerment, the water is transformed into Vajrasattva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrasattva), who then rests in the center of our hearts. When the samayas are kept, we are never separate from Vajrasattva. The practice of Secret Mantra is the short-cut, the swiftest path to reaching the inconceivable common and supreme accomplishments. It is also a very demanding path, and students are encouraged to approach this path gradually, to go through the preliminaries until it bears fruit, and then proceed on to the higher levels. As one moves up the different vehicles, the 'narrow defile' of the path of samaya grows increasingly confined; there is less and less room to move, so be on guard. In the case of a shravaka or bodhisattva, it is more simple to progress: keep virtuous and disciplined in thought, words and deeds - stay on guard against unwholesome behavior, adopt what is good. The samayas of Vajrayana (the major path), on the other hand, is to never let your body depart from being the deity, your voice from being mantra, and mind from the state of samadhi. If you are able to do so, this is keeping the ultimate samayas with the Body, Speech and Mind of the victorious ones. You can then truly be said to possess the sacred precepts of Vajrayana. Without doing so, understand that the samayas of Secret Mantra hold extreme risk. In the general classifications of samaya you find the four stages called infraction, transgression, violation, and breach (or contradicting, damaging, breaking, and passing). These categories depend in part on the length of time which has passed since the samaya was damaged. After 3 years of still not having confessed and apologized, there is no longer any chance to mend the samaya. At this point it is overstepped and becomes irreparable. Broken samaya really does have an impact on the practitioner, and also on the guru of the practitioner. It creates unhappiness and turmoil that prevents one from remaining easefully in the state of samadhi. In other words, impaired samaya hinders the training in samadhi and creates obstacles for learning, reflection and meditation. Broken samaya is definitely detrimental to health, happiness and the cultivation of other positive qualities. The proper way to keep the samayas intact is through right view, meditation and conduct. If this is not completely possible, patience is a strong basis for returning over and over in one's attempts to keep them." There are many approaches on the Buddhist path that one can take towards the ultimate goal of emancipation, or freedom from ignorance and mental turmoil. At the heart of all these options lie the basis of the Buddha's teaching, that of the Four Noble Truths. Any doctrine that does not revolve around the four truths are essentially not the teachings as taught by the Buddha. In keeping with the correct ways of practicing Buddhism for the sake of freeing oneself from the clutches of mental suffering, one moves thru the various yanas (levels), whereby the four truths are revealed in subtler and subtler ways, until such time when it all becomes so vivid and clear that one literally feels as though there is a falling away of a kind of veil that has been obscuring and limiting one's perceptions all this while. For this to take effect, students and practitioners are encouraged to receive empowerments in line with their personal realizations. These empowerments are like acknowledgements from one's teacher that one is ready to move up another step. One of the clauses in receiving empowerments is that the receiver will strive to uphold certain precepts and vows that accompany the ceremonial blessing given by a lineage guru, and should these precepts be broken, an immediate attempt is to be made to mend the breakage. Depending on one's level, such mendings could be in the form of confession (made to any one or all of the 35 confessional buddhas), or simply feeling deep remorse and resolve to become more mindful and considerate in the future, with the aim of not repeating the same old habitual, reactionary and ignorant tendencies. Such mental preparedness are called keeping samayas. Being mindful of these samayas, they become guideposts and lamps on the path towards liberation, in the Buddhist sense. Having said these, it is good to bear in mind that the Buddha also gave a wide array of antidotes to tackle all sorts of afflictive mental states, some say 84 thousand in all, and to find these antidotes, it is encouraged that one delve into the suttas and tantras with an open mind and extract the teachings that is most appropriate to the individual, and apply such, all the while keeping to an investigative attitude, and not accept or reject any of the teachings until one has gained some sort of experiential insight into them. Once these insights are attained, the student is then asked to promptly discard the particular teaching lest it becomes a yoke or burden, and move on to the next level or teaching, and repeat the whole process of contemplation and investigation, thru to discarding this, and so on.

One with everything that's how i like my hot-dog how do you like yours?

Buddhism offers the most comprehensive and systematic path that leads to freedom from torment, guilt and angst. Freedom from such states instigates a return to affliction-free sanity. Being free from afflictive emotions and thoughts, there is no longer any relevance to question whether this man, The Buddha, was fully or only half-enlightened (half?). What matters is its a workable, sustainable, peaceful, non-harming, ecological philosophy, on so many levels. Its a daring statement, but i would say that anyone who believes in philia, and who strives for peace and harmony, is, in my mind, a Buddhist. For me, 'Buddhist' is a way of being... not merely a label that lends a certain image to people. There are non-Buddhists who behaves in very buddhistic ways, and also, there are Buddhists who behaves otherwise. Its all about realizations, and how we treat and respect ourselves and others, and also, what our motives are. The Dalai Lama once met a Christian mystic (it was in France, i think... not sure, as i heard this a long time ago) - he gazed into this man's eyes, and immediately recognized that this man was truly an enlightened individual.

William Shakespeare: "Time is very slow for those who wait. Very fast for those who are scared. Very long for those who grief very short for those who celebrate. But for those who love, time is eternal." Happy holiDAYS to one and all.... May peace, serenity and virtuous compassion fill your hearts always!

Within the framework of true spiritual development, at the pinnacle, it is very possible to reach a point where Compassion becomes a choiceless, motiveless state of being, whereby this 'being' will no longer be an individualistic sort of beingness, but more of feeling (feeling does not seem apt here, but at the moment i cant think of another word. Realizing, perhaps) a collective sort of beingness. I think Aaron mentioned something similar in the opening post, and he said it so well. Imo, for the purest Compassion to be present, one's 'small self' has to be lost - and 'lost' here encompasses the whole spectrum of its meaning, including unequivocally losing all sense of self-reference, of separateness, and also a spontaneous, non-thought reflex of a willingness to exchange oneself for the instant, safe welfare of another/others, regardless of circumstances, and with no measure of indecision. Sometimes life offers direct, experiential insights to a few fortunate ones into such eruptions of loss of self, but many have been to the brink, only to swerve and do a u-turn right just before making the ultimate leap. If only.....

I dont think she was aware, nor present. More like she was in lala land.... fantasizing, dreaming, sponging, soaking up the attention, yes; living the moment... she was not even there to live those moments. Here http://www.greeklatinaudio.com/hebdomad.htm a mystical look at Timeliness from a biblical perspective.

Glad to see you back, Mr Blasto.

Love your neighbor? Your tirade against Goldisheavy in the 'Highest Consort' thread could have used some of this 'loving' you have ascribed here. Call me critical, but i see you as a pretender, Phore. You owe yourself to be more truthful, and you also owe Gold an apology.

Aah... but do you not see that every single living cell in your body, at this very minute, is already 'doing' tummo? Its not a 'choice' thing... its a 'focussed, sustained awareness' thang.

Ha! Kool! At least you have come to know you have always been 'home'. It took me too many lifetimes to wake up to this!

Absolutely! Great thoughts, Hermit... love that highlighted para!

Life-affirming could sometimes mean 'do not ignore the manure'... plants thrive when manure is used intelligently. You seem to want to paint the picture that the DL is teaching 'just focus on the manure', which, in this case, is a complete veering off of the intended meaning. "We have a saying about the virtue of being able to 'see life whole," for all meaning is in wholeness. There could be no golden eggs without the goose, and however tiresome, slow, and stupid the goose might be, she resembled life in that she was an interplay of opposites: she was slow, but her eggs were gold, and if you cut her up to pieces to gather the gold and discard the slowness you would be left with nothing but a carcass. This will also happen if you carve up the human body to find the mysterious source of its vitality or if you separate the flower of a plant from its muddied (well-manured) roots. Something very similar happens in a much more important way when men love life and hate death or cling to youth and reject old age, which is like expecting a mountain to have only one slope - that which goes up, whereas to be a mountain it must have a side that goes up and one that goes down. For the meaning is in the whole, and not only the meaning but the very existence of the thing. Indeed, we are only aware of life and life is only able to manifest itself because it is divided into innumerable pairs of opposites - we know motion by contrast with stillness, long by short, light by darkness, heat by cold, and joy by sorrow. Therefore to see life whole is to understand these opposing qualities as essential to its existence, without trying to interfere, without dissecting the body of the universe so that the pleasant portions may be preserved and its unpleasant one cast aside." -- Alan Watts

-- double post --

Hi 3Bob, Its true i enjoy reading Vaj's experiences and i know so do a few others here. Its also true i enjoy reading of many Taoist practitioners' experiences as well. Maybe that's because i do not have a constricted view of things. Why should i, when all that potentially does is stifle the unlimited colors that go a long way to painting this glorious rainbow we call 'existence'. The less-than-appropriate term you chose (unmoderated urination?) does not befit you, so its quite disheartening to hear of such coming from a someone i have grown to like and respect, just i have suddenly grown to like and respect Manitou for showing the integrity and strength to rise above what i would normally say 'the small self'... what she has demonstrated is spiritual maturity, a quality that none of us can have enough of. There is so much more that we can take from here if only we can learn to understand deeper why we feel disagreeable with certain thoughts/individuals in the first place. The common mistake seem to rest in how we project that it's always the external things that are faulty... however, upon further investigation, based on honest appraisal, we will usually realize where the real source of the dislikes is, and once we are ok with this realization, it makes the road to freedom so much more wide and traversable.

yes yes yes!

What is the matter with posting on this one? I would think that if one is truly a student of the Tao, there is nothing to reject. Naturally, this is only my small opinion, and could be way off in the observation. If i were to have an aversion towards some things i read, or some situation, i would first want to ascertain why this aversion is present in the first instant, instead of attempting to 'shoo' away the less-than-real notion that the cause of the aversion is from a source outside of my own mindscape, which then creates the scene for the next less-than-real notion to arise. Isn't this how ignorance is perpetuated? Find the source, and cut it there... then the flow that Taoists love to ponder and mull over will be all the more flowy.

Knowledge is potential wisdom... It seeks out spaces in the head. Wisdom is potential freedom... It seeks out spaces in the heart. The ability to integrate wisdom and knowledge/method is Mahamudra (The Great Seal).

A lot of upheaval happening on a global scale. Its no different here. Must be the fall season. I think it took some courage to come to this decision. Your contributions have been very insightful to many here. Its my feeling that there will be clamors for your return to the Mod team fairly soon. Whether or not you will return is entirely dependent on how things will unfold from now on, both within the membership and within your own heart. If there is closure, i do not see why your return would not be greatly celebrated. After all, a bit of space created, albeit imposed upon, often put things into perspective. Its a noble gesture. Nothing to be sad about. (Not sure if this is going to be any direct consolation, but Ireland's government has collapsed, mainly due to bad judgement calls made and duping the public with regards to the realities of the economic shambles the country is truly in. Two years to set records straight, and they simply could not admit to their botched decisions and lack of integrity. In this case, i think not a single person here will ever wish the present Prime Minister good luck and happy retirement from politics...)