C T

Knowledge are of many different levels, Ralis. I am not doubting yours. What aroused my attention around the subject of prostrations was what you had said specifically, that doing prostrations are a sign of relinquishing one's power to (what you projected as) higher authority, in this case, the lamas sitting on thrones holding invisible lassos around the heads of everyone in the meditation hall and forcing them to kowtow (not cowtao) to their official status. Now, if you were not well-versed in the finer points of Vajrayana practice, its acceptable to allow for erroneous info-sharing - but here's your proclamation that you are almost an adept at it, and yet there is this obvious misdirection and misinformation being put forth, so what's the deal here? Its better to be straightforward and honest by admitting that the path does not suit you, and that will be the end of story. To quote, "To me, a true spiritual path is one that benefits the world, without renouncing or escaping from it." If you truly, truly mean this, then i deeply salute you, and acknowledge your wisdom. Perhaps the time has come for all of us to put these words into practice, wouldn't you agree? To conclude, let me just say that there is a difference between critical thinking and simply being critical. That's all. Good day to you, sir.

That's wonderful VJ! It was not my intention to discourage BoL, and i do see why this crucial 'journey' means a lot to him. Personally, i see sacrifices for spiritual ideals as a good thing, for such can generate a lot of positive potential in the individual. But the willingness to let things go, to be prepared mentally for when things fall apart, is different from making drastic decisions and acting upon them, to up everything in other words, and venture forth into the unknown. As a dzogchenpa, i am sure you are aware that all circumstances can be worked upon as sources of transformation. As Pema Chodron kindly urged, "Start where you are"... I think its this that makes the Dzogchen path so unique. Just like the mongoose living among poisonous snakes, and adapting to the environment to such an extent that they become immune to the poison. They could all have moved to Ireland (no snakes at all here) instead!!

The peerless Padmasambhava subdued many such 'flyers' in his time. Come to think of it, one of them was exorcised by the Mods here a couple of days ago.

Yeah, you ought to hasten a visit soon, RV! I lived in England for 3 years - regrettably never made the effort to visit Stonehenge. There are many mystical sites here in Ireland as well. http://www.google.ie/search?q=stone+circles+of+ireland&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1278&bih=618 None as magnificent as Stonehenge though, imo.

When a person can begin to see that attachment and aversion is the basis of samsara, and then realize that such are empty of permanence, just as the very things (material or otherwise) that are grasped at or shunned are, then one will begin to understand that there is really no need to subject oneself to such kinds of 'epiphany'. Dwelling on these thoughts can be helpful, when, for example, one is under some sort of instruction or following a specific sadhana (like Ngondro for example), but otherwise, such thinking can simply and unknowingly lead to more fermentations. Moreover, the contemplations on impermanence and death are meant to be supported by contemplations on the urgency to turn towards refuge, whereby the accompanying visualizations are to be practiced in order for the practice to bear fruit. As with all contemplations, in line with the Three Jewels, it is better to do them within the mental space of "Good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end" sort of way. Otherwise it is considered to lack merit. I do not see the skillfulness in encouraging readers to simply adopt a 'give it all up' attitude when not everyone here is even ready to give up their harmless attachment to coffee (as an example only... i love coffee and am deeply attached to it!) let alone more significant sacrifices? Sometimes contemplations should just remain contemplations, and not to be taken literally. All that is required is a mental preparedness - an ongoing awareness that life is impermanent, and we really cannot know when one's life can suddenly be extinguished without any warning. Cultivating in this way a person can become more alive, more present and also more motivated to sustain a worthy spiritual path that leads to freedom from life and death.

Maybe a dream meditation spot is the very spot where someone wakes up suddenly and realize that life is nothing but a dream after all?!! Seriously... there are plenty of places that are very conducive atmospherically for deep contemplations. Personally, since coming over to Europe, i have been captivated by the serene, palpable energy found in old chapels and ancient stone circle sites.

Thanks for sharing here, Pero. Ralis holds a mistaken notion with regards to prostrations, which is the reason why i offered an alternative view for consideration. Its not a factor really if one understands and yet feels no connection with the practice anyhow, but to put forth a misguided premise that could lead others to get a wrong idea about Vajrayana, or specifically, some of the practices contained therein, is unethical, imo. I understand that he may not have been made aware of the deeper aspects and benefits of doing prostrations, which is why i tried to explain a bit on what the dynamics are in a more neutral light. Naturally, my perspectives are simply mine alone, and in no way were they expressed for the purpose of undermining Mr Ralis' integrity as a person who might know better. (Haven't seen you post in a while - how are you keeping btw? Trust all is well with you. Have you been on retreat or something? I have no idea where Mr Songs is. He might be just taking a break... hopefully its not one that was enforced. )

Prostrations need not be public. By all means, do them at home. In Dzogchen, practitioners work with it wherever they are - because in Dzogchen wherever one is, whatever is happening, can be used as practice. There are no demands, only that one readies oneself, as much as possible, thru whatever is happening right now, to awaken to what is. Within authentic Dzogchen schools, worshipping of anything is not encouraged, least of all the guru. When one reaches the stage where one sees all things as inseparable, and that the guru is none other than a representation/embodiment of one's innate buddha nature, emanating from within one's own lotus- heart, then a spontaneous recognition arises, by which time, there is so much affection that its almost impossible not to want to venerate one's guru (need not be a living person btw). But such a state requires maturity and a stable mind.

Yes, agreed. The idea that high lamas only sit on thrones while garbed in high hats and elaborate robes is totally off the mark. Here is a clip that shows HE Tsem Tulku, a very prominent teacher and greatly revered in Ganden Monastery, giving teachings while sitting on the floor wearing a polo shirt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCz68enlvgc&feature=related

Haven't you seen high lamas prostrating to tulkus of 4 or 5? I have. Its got very little, if anything, to do with authority. Its apparent this is rubbing you the wrong way, and whatever seems to be tugging at your insides, you are projecting it out as though you need some confirmation that your views and embedded mental derivatives are justified. Perhaps its you who unconsciously want to be treated like royalty? Trust me, its not that pleasant. When i practice prostrations daily, my main motive is to remind myself to awaken bodhicitta - this is like prostrating to the buddha nature (as potential) that exists within all sentient beings and which can be awakened when the circumstances to do so align favorably. The secondary benefit is of course it helps to keep one fit as a fiddle .... I have heard that doing the first hundred thousand prostrations is like being in hell... the second hundred thousand and one gets grounded so intensely that distractions simply fall away, and by the time the third hundred thousand is completed, one would feel like a child of heaven. (sixty-seven, sixty-eight, seventy, seventy-one, seventy-two.... and counting )

As long as you are not creating or imagining 'authority figures'(inner demons?) on an on-going basis to do battle with (im sure you are aware that many of us do this unconsciously?) just so you get to feel as if you are making progress somehow, then i guess you are doing okay. This suspicion arose from your admission that you were born to do battle with authoritative figures. I see a pattern, no? I have practiced Vajrayana for a good few years but have never encountered a situation where a demand was made to prostrate before my teachers, or visiting lamas, and lineage holders of the various traditions. But then, pride has never been one of my tendencies. I can see though why some Western students are averse to doing prostrations. Without fully synthesizing the deeper and subtler benefits associated with this practice, which could be due to seeing and taking what is superficial(at face value) as excuses for not wanting to adopt the practice, it could be hard to convince oneself that prostrations do more than merely putting on an external show of yielding/surrendering to imaginary forces deemed higher than oneself. But if you feel uneasy to try, to delve further and in greater depth, because maybe you were also born to get bored easily with formalities (of which most worthwhile practices contain), then by all means refrain from changing your stance.

Really? That's great.

Ego solidifies the 'I'. This 'I' is trusted to be true... it is the process of myopic solidification (neuroses) that lacks truth. In Buddhist psychology, harboring the needs to make things permanent and solid is caused by the conditioned tendencies of a grasping nature. This is also that which gives rise to Dukkha. This, however, is reversible. Engaging in Mindful Attention is one of the practices which can help to reverse this process. Mindful Attention practices, some conclude, are too focussed on the mind, which leads to dullness they say. This is a misperception. Mindful Attention practices very much include all aspects of daily activities, from the time one awakes in the morning till the time one returns to sleep. How much, and for how long can this mindfulness be sustained? It is easy to practice Mindfulness when one is sitting down in meditation - watching the mind here is simple. It is when one gets out of meditation that one's mindfulness mettle is tested. So, its not about what is true and false - it is more about how one goes about abiding in calm equipoise throughout the day, and if this can be sustained, then a grace of suchness, the ability to allow for things to come and go without tending to be manipulative, will be translated over to sleep time as well. Very often, people who cannot sleep well are those who chronically manipulate their waking activities. Such a tendency do translate over to sleep time as well, unfortunately. By investigating into one's habitual patterns, thru Mindful Attention, we can find out who/what is it that is allowing for such manipulations to take effect, and whether such habits can be altered and improved upon. The more solid the grasping at an inherent, independent self, the less conducive the environment for creating the right circumstances to bring about such improvements.

Hi Marblehead, From the Buddhist perspective, conditional truths exist as seed potential, and a Buddhist cultivator is more like a gardener than a sage... in that there is a harnessed effort to plant the right seeds, and do whatever else is necessary to develop and nurture growth that leads to a good harvest. Wouldn't it be rather silly to assume that after doing all the work that the gardener would then do away with his 'insignificant' self? Who is left to enjoy the bountiful fruits? More than that, i believe that Buddhists learn very much to enjoy not only the fruits of cultivation, but also the whole process ranging from the planning stages right thru to the harvesting. I'm thinking that you are thinking that Buddhists are a loopy bunch of people. I could be off the mark, but i think your handle on this is rather slippery. After all that has been exchanged, it appears you still do not get that Buddhism does not advocate doing away with the self. Only people on chronic guilt trips (and there are 1 or 2 always posting on this board) attaches to this sort of mind set. I can vouch that Xabir is definitely not one of them. Working with Buddhist way of mindful attention allows the contemplator to befriend whatever is present without asserting or negating anything. This makes room for an unconditional relationship with self and others to occur - self and others are clearly seen in this room when the right conditions are present, but its in the aspect of the unconditional that self and others are able to be equalized, not annihilated. After all, impartiality does not exclusively reside in the domain of Daoism. Without training in the attitude of equality and impartiality, Buddhists understand that it is not possible to know that a rock's virtue is hardness, and water's virtue is softness. The essence of Buddhism... things just as they are, empty of ultimate essence, but full of colorful phenomena. We enjoy these displays as much as our Taoist brothers and sisters.

Try to exclusively communicate with the eyes only, relating, for example, "I appreciate you" to each other, simply by looking into each other's eyes. The warmth arising from this exercise is quite tangible. After a while, move on to other subtler, more reinforcing, more positive 'hidden' messages. A firm foundation of intimate connection needs to be established, and this exercise helps to do this in a fun, non-threatening manner.

Too close, and it cannot be recognized. Too profound, and it cannot be appreciated. Too good, and it cannot be believed. Too simple, and it cannot be accepted.

Each morning, the sun brightens in degrees, although, in the ultimate sense, the sun is always shining. Each evening, too, the sun sets, gradually allowing the night to gently unfold. The moon comes out to play, brightened by the fading sun. There is a harmony in nature's revelations - nothing happens without measurement, yet at the deepest level, nothing happens. Every single revelation in each moment already is, even when your heartstrings gets tugged, a natural calculative process is already effected. Its good you are able to allow for such simplicity by trusting your intuition. Some of us continually choose the frustrating path of attempting to manipulate the outcomes of nature's calculative efforts. In this there can never be contentment, although such is often proclaimed to be sought by many.

Hey Seth, Nice thoughts, and thanks for your time here. Most of what you point out is spot on! (how are things in Oz btw? Ever thought of expanding your horizons a little? Are you a qualified Wing Chun teacher? If so, send me a PM if you wish - i may have something that could be of interest to you.) apologies for the side-tracking here.

I sincerely hope you will not 'get' what i am saying... i think you know what i mean. I often made the mistake of thinking that i get something, and rejoiced as if such was a treasure found, and began hoarding these in places which are empty, not realizing that whatever is put into these empty places immediately becomes part of that emptiness. I then compound the mistake by thinking that my life can be enhanced somehow, enriched by these discoveries, which is simply not possible, because at the end of the day, whatever we hoard, be it gold plates of wisdom, or cardboards of doubt, will only become fetters all the same, if we, thru this process, create a bigger place for clinging and aversion to multiply in. In this, i understand now that 'one substance' could never be sustained as long as i mentally ding dong between what is perceived to be good teachings and BS teachings, good teachers and BS teachers. I know now that when causes and conditions come together, the arising of phenomena cannot be prevented - and then, when such causes and conditions dissipate, so does the formation of aggregates that give rise to such phenomena decline. Arisings and declines are natural - in this no suffering is found. Suffering takes shape when i, in seeing things arise, wishes for such to be otherwise, and when i see things decline, wishes that such also be otherwise. This is caused by lack of insight, which in turn is caused by the desire for things to remain manipulable, just so to give me a sense of being able to control and shape what is beyond reach. Makes me feel important, and this sort of self-cherishing is exactly that which is advised against on the bodhisattvas' path. The good news is that after 20 or so years of trying, i am starting to feel a bit tired, and lucky enough in the interim to have generated a bit of merit so that i can begin to stop clinging to this ball of fire which i am clinging to so tightly...

One needs to consider very deeply before deciding to offer what one does not yet possess. Just as there are stages of insight/awakening, there will also be followed by degrees and levels of service. One serves accordingly, always keeping one's motivation in check. To do otherwise may lead to all sorts of afflictive issues, not only for oneself, but for others too. Start at the ground level, serve in the smallest ways. Sometimes simply sharing a smile goes a long way in reassuring another that all is well, that they are appreciated. Smiling can potentially be a tremendous act of humanity. It costs nothing, but its value is boundless... So is the ability to listen/engage by means of one's heart, fully, and without judgement.

Since i am still participating in this discussion, it may be good to inform that i have not ventured into that RT site at all, am not familiar with what is going on there, nor have i the inclination/curiosity to begin to do so. I prefer to keep to basic premises where investigations of Anatta is concerned. Having found the Mahayana view to be a most satisfactory map for this, whatever is being said here would have been understood and put forth based on my limited scope of contemplating the Mahayana path. In particular, i have found Shantideva's The Way of The Bodhisattva very helpful as a primary tool in the course of my journey. Without meaning to offense the sensitive, i am taking the liberty to include some of the contents from his texts here, more as a reminder to myself and as refresher for others who are familiar with the teachings: What we call the body is not feet or shins, The body, likewise, is not thighs or loins. It's not the belly nor indeed the back, And from the chest and arms the body is not formed. The body is not ribs or hands, Armpits, shoulders, bowels, or entrails; It is not the head or throat: From none of these is 'body' constituted. If body, step by step, Pervades and spreads itself throughout its members, Its parts indeed are present in the parts, But where does 'body', in itself, abide? If 'body', single and entire, is present in the hand and other members, However many parts there are, the hand and all the rest, One will find an equal quantity of 'bodies'. If 'body' is not outside or within its parts, How is it, then, residing in its members? And since it has no basis other than its parts, How can it be said to be at all? Thus there is no body in the limbs, But from illusion does the idea spring And is affixed to a specific shape, Just as when a scarecrow is mistaken for a man. As long as the conditions are assembled, A body will appear and seem to be a man. As long as all the parts are likewise present, Its there that we will see a body. Likewise, since it is a group of fingers, The hand itself is not a single entity. And so it is with fingers, made of joints; And joints themselves consist of many parts. These parts themselves will break down into atoms, and atoms will divide according to direction. These fragments , too, will also fall to nothing. Thus atoms are like empty space - they too have no real existence. All forms, therefore, is like a dream, And who will be attached to it, who thus investigates? The body, in this way, has no existence - What is male, therefore, and what is female? Many Mahayana students use this investigative tool as a means to arrive at the preparatory stage of insight into No-self and Emptiness. Thru this contemplative exercise some will gain various fruits of realization, but there is still more work to be done to stabilize the view, to ground it into experience so that the grasp of this understanding surpasses the conceptual level. In effect, when the mind is stable, such inferences can be put aside. By then, it is no longer necessary to cling to such teachings. When there is a strong foundation set, the student can arrive at the union of tranquil abiding and insight without much effort, and can then extend such to all other types of mind training and energetic cultivations. At a further stage of the above training, Shantideva further elaborates on the Mindfulness on the Emptiness of Feelings: If suffering itself is truly real, Then why is joy not altogether quenched thereby? If pleasure is real, then why will pleasant tastes Not comfort and amuse a man in agony? If the feeling fails to be experienced Through being overwhelmed by something stronger, How can 'feeling' rightly be ascribed To that which lacks the character of being felt? Perhaps you say that only subtle pain remains, Its grosser form has now been overcome, Or rather, it is felt as mere pleasure. But what is subtle still remains itself. If, through presence of its opposite, Pain and sorrow fail to manifest, To claim with such conviction that its felt Is surely nothing more than empty words. If between the sense power and a thing There is space, how will the two terms meet? If there is no space, they form a unity, And therefore, what is it that meets with what? Atoms and atoms cannot inter-penetrate, For they are equal, lacking any volume. But if they do not penetrate, they also do not mingle; And if they do not mingle, there is no permanent encounter. For how could anyone accept That which is partless could be said to meet? And you must show me, if you ever saw, A contact taking place between two partless things. The consciousness is immaterial, And so one cannot speak of contact with it. A combination, too, has no reality, And this we have already demonstrated. Therefore, if there is no touch or contact, Whence is it that feeling takes its rise? What purpose is there, then, in our striving, What is it, then, that torments what? Since there is no subject for sensation, And sensation, too, lacks all existence, Why, when this you have begun to clearly understand, Will you not pause and turn away from craving? Seeing, then, and sense of touch, Are stuff of insubstantial dreams. If perceiving consciousness arises simultaneously, How could such a feeling be perceived? If the one arises first, the other after, Memory occurs and not direct sensation. Sensation, then, does not perceive itself, And likewise, by another it is not perceived. The subject of sensation has no real existence, Thus sensation, likewise, has no real being. What damage, then, can be inflicted On this aggregate deprived of self? (On mindfulness on the Emptiness of Mind) The mind within the senses does not dwell; It has no place in outer things, like form, And in between, the mind does not abide: Not out, not in, not elsewhere can the mind be found. Something not within the body, and yet nowhere else, That does not merge with it nor stand apart - Something such as this does not exist, not even slightly. Beings have nirvana by their nature. If consciousness precedes the cognized object, With regard to what does it arise? If consciousness arises with its object, Again, regarding what does it arise? If consciousness comes later than its object, Once again, from what does it arise? "Having established the absence of intrinsic existence of phenomena, Shantideva goes on to say that we can use this understanding as an antidote to our grasping at true existence - in this particular case, our grasping at feelings, thoughts, and body as if they have an independent, concrete reality".... The Dalai Lama Since so it is, the antidote Is meditation and analysis. Investigation and resultant concentration Is indeed the food and sustenance of yogis.

Im glad you kinda sorta get it, Miss Kate. Sometimes the end justifies the means... and sometimes they dont!! Darn.

I do not feel you are arrogant or narcissistic, not in the least. For liberation to happen, in the instance of it happening spontaneously, every thing that arise in the mind has to be regarded as 'one taste' or, in this case, your choice to employ the term 'one substance' (i hope we are referring to the same one thing here ) Thru the process of knowing, insights arise, but they cannot remain. Hence these insights get liberated into the Dharmakaya. Whatever insights are needed and need to be used at a particular stage of the path can be used accordingly, but are not to be clung to as if they are absolutes. All absolutes denote a kind of stuckness, which is the exact opposite of emancipation.

Well, if you are using it as a tool for transforming limitations, then there cannot be any argument whatsoever. But as a long term attitude, it may be lacking somehow. As mentioned earlier, the process of knowing can only occur in the moment. For this moment to continue, there cannot be any stoppage for post-analysis of whether you know or you dont, because this very act requires a self for it(the analysis) to manifest. During the knowing, the self cannot observe itself in the engagement of knowing. In knowing there can only be the knowing. One has to retract from the moment (of the on-going process of knowing) in order to formulate an analysis of either "I know" or "I do not know", and this is when self becomes apparent. The more focussed one is on self, the less engaged one can be in the knowing/experiencing moment. I think you alluded to something similar in your earlier post.

Yeah... keep a balanced perspective - hope you are not ditching Toothless Ruth in the meantime, eh?