Mark Foote

My take: The movement of breath can necessitate the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention draws out thoughts initial and sustained, and brings on the stages of concentration. To become aware of the placement of attention, willful activity in the body must be abandoned, even in the face of a stoppage of breath: Be like a person who has died the great death: after your breath is cut off, then you come back to life. (“Zen Letters: Teachings of Yuanwu”, tr. J.C. and Thomas Cleary, p 84) The “great death” is an adherence to the abandonment of activity in the body, regardless of the consequences. The idea, however, is not to die of suffocation, but to relax and discover the automatic activity of the body that occurs through the placement of attention, to “come back to life”. … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

Wrote a post just for you, ol3bob: "The Place Where You Stop and Rest" Starts like this: In one of his letters, twelfth-century Ch’an teacher Yuanwu wrote: Actually practice at this level for twenty or thirty years and cut off all the verbal demonstrations and creeping vines and useless devices and states, until you are free from conditioned mind. Then this will be the place of peace and bliss where you stop and rest. Thus it is said: “If you are stopping now, then stop. If you seek a time when you finish, there will never be a time when you finish.” (“Zen Letters: Teachings of Yuanwu”, tr. Cleary & Cleary, Shambala p 99) In my teenage years, I became keenly aware of the “creeping vines” of my mind. I read a lot of Alan Watts books on Zen, thinking that might help, but I soon found out that what he had to say did nothing to cut off the “creeping vines”. I was looking for something Shunryu Suzuki described in one of his lectures, though I didn’t know it at the time: So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom. (Thursday Morning Lectures, Shunryu Suzuki; November 4th 1965, Los Altos; emphasis added)

I looked at your link, Mark and what Suzuki actually says there is: I think his qualifier is important - Suzuki is not saying that, he says that OTHERS do. Once understood shikantaza becomes easier... with insight it is actually just how life actually IS. He also says that if you have a good Zazen practice, shikantaza will be comprehensible to you. This is true... it just needs pointing out by a teacher. Zazen IS the process of learning to let go of "doership", which I often think is where your personal investigation is headed. You're right, that he started out talking about what other teachers say about shikantaza. I don't know, though--I read the part that I quoted as Shunryu Suzuki talking about his own experience with shikantaza. And you're right, "doing something" is just preparatory practice, so Seigen Gyoshi had that right. However, the thing that I really like about Gautama is that he made positive and substantive descriptions--Zen is littered with teaching by negation, and I don't find that especially useful. I take it you would discount what Suzuki said about "our mind should pervade every parts of our physical being"? What about Gautama's "not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind"? Gautama was describing the fourth concentration. I wonder, what do you think of Gautama's metaphor for the fourth concentraiion? … it is as if (a person) might be sitting down who had clothed (themselves) including (their) head with a white cloth; there would be no part of (their) whole body that was not covered by the white cloth. (MN 119, tr. Pali Text Society vol. III p 134) Not so much about understanding or insight in the experience of that, I would say. More like: In the fourth concentration, the suffusion of the body with “purity by the pureness of mind” can allow the thoracolumbar fascial sheet to sustain an openness in the nerve exits along the sacrum and spine. That openness can allow an ability to feel throughout the body to the surface of the skin. The free placement of attention by necessity in the movement of breath depends on the ability to feel throughout the body to the surface of the skin. When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention draws out thoughts initial and sustained, and brings on the stages of concentration. So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. (Breathing, Shunryu Suzuki; November 4th 1965, Los Altos) Honestly, Stirling, sometimes it sounds like you don't advocate zazen at all. Of course, Seigen Gyoshi sounds like he's not advocating for zazen either, but I suspect he did sit. Ch'an teachers could get away with not having anything positive or substantive to say, because they sat and insisted that their students sit--so far as I know!

Sounds right, except for the "submissively" part. Acknowledging that if they have been able to see/feel what "REAL wisdom LOOKS like", they have already learned all they need to know?

Third noble truth is cessation, the fourth is the way leading to cessation. In MN 70, Gautama distinguished between the attainment of "those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes" (the formless jhana) and the complete destruction of the cankers that he said was synonymous with enlightenment. In Soto Zen, "shikantaza" is the complete cessation of willful or intentional activity of the body, or "just sitting". Easier said than done! From a post I'm working on now: It is not possible to continue (shikantaza) more than one hour, because it is intense practice to take hold of all our mind and body by the practice which include everything. So in shikantaza, our mind should pervade every parts of our physical being. That is not so easy. (I have nothing in my mind, Shunryu Suzuki, July 15, 1969, San Francisco) Gautama spoke similarly: … seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. (AN 5.28, tr. PTS vol. III pp 18-19, see also MN 119 PTS vol. III pp 132-134) “The pureness of mind” Gautama referred to is the pureness of the mind without will or intent with regard to the activity of the body. In Gautama’s teaching, the extension of “purity by the pureness of mind” belonged to the last of the initial concentrations, the fourth concentration. I've mentioned before that I associate the three cankers with prejudice toward particular time frames--sense desire with an inclination toward the present, desire for being with an inclination toward the future, and desire for not being with an inclination toward the past. As I'm sure you'll agree, an inclination toward a particular time frame can trip a person up.

Oh, be like that, Ralis! I believe the myth, ha ha. There's a voice in those early Nikayas, the first four, that I haven't found anywhere else. Things are said there that relate to my experience, that unfold for me over time. I have to believe that in the sermons attributed to Gautama, the first four Nikayas do indeed capture the voice of one unique individual. You might like this, something I wrote awhile back: By Gautama’s own admission, enlightenment is not required to enjoy (his own) “pleasant way of living”: Formerly… before I myself was enlightened with the perfect wisdom, and was yet a Bodhisattva, I used generally to spend my time in this way of living. (SN 54.8; tr. PTS vol. V p 280: “the Tathagatha’s way of life”, 289) If a person can exhibit a mindfulness like Gautama’s without having become enlightened (his way of living), and can have “seen by means of wisdom” without having completely destroyed the cankers (sense desire, desire for being, desire for not being), then how can one know who to trust as a teacher? Gautama’s advice was to go by the words of the teacher rather than any claim to authority, to compare the instructions of a teacher to the sermons Gautama himself had given and to the rules of the order that Gautama himself had laid down (DN 16 PTS vol. ii pp 133-136). Nevertheless, activity solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness, the hallmark of the fourth concentration, has been conveyed by demonstration in some branches of Buddhism for millennia. The transmission of a central part of the teaching through such conveyance, and the certification of that transmission by the presiding teacher, is regarded by some schools as the only guarantee of the authenticity of a teacher. The teachers so authenticated have in many cases disappointed their students, when circumstances revealed that the teacher’s cankers had not been completely destroyed. Furthermore, some schools appear to have certified transmission without the conveyance that has kept the tradition alive, perhaps for the sake of the continuation of the school. Gautama himself refused to name a successor (DN 16, PTS vol. ii p 107). (One Way or Another, parentheticals paraphrase original)

BigSkyD, how would you respond to the question? Maybe you didn't want to prejudice the responses, but the questions feel a little impersonal without your response. I like Nungali's response, on thoughts: "A thought is a mental cognitive string . Thinking is thoughts strung together ." Thoughts and thinking generally concern things seen, heard, cognized just as they are in the physical world. Imagination extends thought and thinking into things not yet seen, heard, or cognized in the physical world, or that may never be seen, heard, or cognized in the physical world. Intent is tricky. I'm with Gautama the Buddha: Now I… say that right purpose is twofold. There is… the right purpose that has cankers, is on the side of merit, and ripens unto cleaving (to new birth). There is… the right purpose which is [noble], cankerless, supermundane, a factor of the Way. And what… is the purpose which is on the side of merit, and ripens unto cleaving? Purpose for renunciation, purpose for non-ill-will, purpose for non-harming. This… is right purpose that… ripens unto cleaving. And what… is the right purpose that is [noble], cankerless, supermundane, a component of the Way? Whatever… is reasoning, initial thought, purpose, an activity of speech through the complete focussing and application of the mind in one who, by developing the [noble] Way, is of [noble] thought, of cankerless thought, and is conversant with the [noble] Way–this… is right purpose that is [noble], cankerless, supermundane, a component of the Way. (MN 117, tr. Pali Text Society vol. III pp 115-116) Moreover, we have: That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill. Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence birth… takes place. But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill. (SN 12.38; tr. PTS SN vol. II p 45) So what's a mother to do! Shunryu Suzuki said: … usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (The Background of Shikantaza, Shunryu Suzuki; San Francisco, February 22, 1970) He is recommending "just to sit", to sit without "doing something" with regard to the body. My experience is that activity of the body purely by virtue of the location of consciousness is possible, and that the relinquishment of will, intent, and whatever I might be occupied with in favor of the free location of consciousness in the body is a necessary part of staying healthy. We pause now for station identification, as it were.

What about sitting? You can sit on a chair, you don't have to sit cross-legged. When you get out of the chair, you could try Moshe Feldenkrais's advice: …good upright posture is that from which a minimum muscular effort will move the body with equal ease in any desired direction. This means that in the upright position there must be no muscular effort deriving from voluntary control, regardless of whether this effort is known and deliberate or concealed from the consciousness by habit. …When the center of gravity has really moved forward over the feet a reflex movement will originate in the old nervous system and straighten the legs; this automatic movement will not be felt as an effort at all. ("Awareness Through Movement”, Moshe Feldenkrais, p 76, 78.)

How about, "define the nature of human reality?" There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. ... When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention draws out thoughts initial and sustained, and brings on... concentration: … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24) (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) (in 500 words or less...)

Emptiness is form: Don’t ever think that you can sit zazen! That’s a big mistake! Zazen sits zazen! --Shunryu Suzuki (per Blanche, “Interview with Blanche and Lou Hartman” 10/9/95, conducted by David Chadwick) Form is emptiness: Going into a wild field, not choosing Picking up whatever plant comes to hand, Rootless but finding life, Apart from the ground but not falling. (poem by Fadeng, from “Zen Letters: The Teachings of Yuanwu”, tr. Cleary and Cleary, p 47)

I don't quite see sigma in the dharmachakra, quite the stretch there rounding all the letters. Interesting article about the ichthys, for sure. So the notion that it was a secret sign has fallen out of favor now. Then again, the pressure to publish is enormous, the number of aspirants for PhD's unparalleled, and papers withdrawn and new conclusions overturned regularly. What an age!

My mind has always been on things other than material success. I had the support of my family to fall back on, that made a difference. I hope I have made the best use of my time, for all the generations of whom I am the last.