effilang

1. You are trying to equalize everything. We will end in saying being a human and being an animal is the same if animal feels itself ok. If you would like to understand what blindness is just put a blindfold on your eyes and live 1-2 days like that. After that you would have a real opinion on how blindness changes life and can you just ignore it saying "my life is as colorful as before".

 

Yes, both are just the experience of being and the evolution of consciousness and awareness.

A human is not the same. We've come a long way to evolve to the status of humans and our awarenss is different.

 

I actually like to blind fold myself every other weekend between 3 hours and 8 hours, so joke is on you haha

I think it's a good practice : )

 

My point was about whether a blind person who wasn't told his was blind would know he was blind, not whether one that could already see, voluntarily blinded himself. Of course, "knowing" before hand changes everything, but we are always in a state of NOT KNOWING what we DON'T YET KNOW. Does that mean we are out of balance? Because if that is the case, then we are perpetually out of balance, because the Dao is infinite and this is reflected in our cultivation.

 

What I was trying to illustrate is that by not being aware of a relative state of balance one cannot know that they do not fit within that norm, demonstrating that often ignorance can be bliss, since that which is NORMAL anyway, is a relative expression of another persons mind and opinions and not a form of absolute reality, which is void of mind.

 

One commedian made a joke one time about having sex with a deaf girl. He wondered what the deaf girl's moans of sexual pleasure would sound like compared to the typical moan of a woman, who all seem to sort of moan the same way after hearing each other, he said : )

 

Maybe she would sound like Godzilla? Or Chewbacca?

Which one is more natural then?

 

In which case, is nature only that which man does not touch or is nature also that which man creates, man himself being a part of it?

 

 

2. First, who said you spirit has no sexuality? Actually this question has a direct answer and a reason behind it.

Secondly you might be mixing up traditions working solely with spirit (most of modern systems are about it) and traditions working with both spirit and yuan qi (and yuan qi is the part determining sex of a person).

 

I did : )

 

In our school we work with immortals every day. While they can project as males or females and generally associate with their last human form, their natural form is a state of completely unbinary and asexual energy.

 

And there is a law of the soul which is also projected into the Yuan Shen; FREE WILL.

 

It is a fundamental right, so even our sexuality is down to Taiji, it is not absolute. The human body is a product of TAIJI, it cannot be absolute in any form. It's a simple law. If things could be absolute here and if there could be physical immortality, there would be no need for separate realms ie: Taiji and Wuji and physical immortality would be the highest goal instead of spiritual immortality as the focus, but we know that we leave this realm to go somewhere else, where there is no physical body or form unless created by our own awareness.

 

Free will is very important.

The Dao does not deprive a soul of choice, but we must bear our consequences.

 

Even immortals cannot escape their karma, they also have to take care of what is left, especially for the ones that practice immortality by going away to hide in the monastery. If life cannot touch them, because they are so removed from society then how can they ever neutralise their karma with the souls to which they owe a debt?

 

The Dao is like flowing water, if we are out in the open it will wash us all the time. If we build a brick wall around ourselves and a brick roof ontop of our head, it will still get to us eventually by eroding the rock. The question is are we going to be dead by then? : )

 

That is why if we look back at the old sages, they were all part of society in one way or another.

Again this is due to immortality not being an on and off switch, but a progressive development.

 

Your karmic debt cannot just disappear. How is that fair to the souls to whom you owe it?

So if you killed 1,000 people and then you "become" an immortal, that's it, you're off the hook?

How do those souls some of which have incarnated specifically at this time so they can coincide with your presence complete their goal? Some wait many life times so you can meet in the same place on the physical plain to resolve your karma? What happens to them?

 

Life and death can only be repaid by life and death.

Some other types of karma can be broken down to make it easier, but some cannot be negotiated.

 

Back to the orientation stuff.

 

If I'm born a girl with a physical body but environmental and pyshological factors predispose me to a male gender identity, I can alter my body through hormones and even get a penis transplant.

 

If I'm born a guy I can also become a girl.

 

If the spirit governs everything and Yuan Qi factors into it during early development, then why would one ever be born with a female body but the gender identity of a man or vice-versa. A hiccup in the perfected Dao? 

 

None of these physical alterations change the polarity of a person's energy, but again, that does not stop one from practisting Neidan and there is nothing to be corrected, IMO and IME.

 

I do not agree than Yuan Qi is responsible for ones sexuality.

The Yuan Qi can contribute to the determination of SEX, but not SEXUAL IDENTITY.

 

I am heterosexual through and through, but If I decided that I wanted to go and have sex with a man today I could, who knows I might even enjoy it eh?

 

We have the power to chose. The power of free will can never be stripped form the Soul. That's our highest right.

 

We're going into gender identity here and nature vs nurture discussions and that's gonna go on forever, so maybe it's better to just say that we have different opinions on the matter and agree to disagree on this one : )

 

 

 

3. Lets make an experiment. When you next time are going to have a meal - please notice if are you thinking like "I think today I need to want eat more sugar" or you are thinking like "Hey I want suger. Dont know why, but I defeinitely want it!".

Or another experiment: you can try not to drink for some time. Please notice what would happen earlier: you would notice a desire to drink or you would think that "I haven't been drinking for 3 hours 31 minutes. Now its time for me to drink."

 

Well in my life, both are normal, because there are many things that I schedule, such as drinking water to keep hydrated at certain intervals. So again, there are no absolutes. The body can communicate it's needs to us or we can communicate our needs to the body. Its relative. That's Taiji.

 

Most of the time I chose what to eat and keep track of what I haven't eaten.

So it's quite normal for me to go to the kitchen and think to myself "I haven't had omega 3 this week" - Let's make fish or lets have some ceareal with chia seeds. After all we should know the condition of our own body and what we are giving it, when and how much. My body can't communicate to me the desire for a specific thing like omega 3, yet I know its essential to me and the body can't produce it naturally, so I have to use my mind.

 

It also happens that I desire to eat something, but the reason that EVER happens is if I think about the thing in my mind.

If I sit here now and remind myself of the taste of a certain childhood food, of course the memory cluster that registered the data from the 5 senses associated with that experience will trigger and ill be able to see it, taste it and even smell it depending on how in touch I am - AND naturally, that will make me want to eat it, but that's a voluntary action, we are in control of it.

 

 

4. That might be ok. Usually person needs some rare product if he/she has some rare deviation in his / her metabolism. And eating such a product can make person healthy again. If that was not a desire of mind!

 

Yes. My point is that it's not rare. In one culture it's normal in another it's not. If you served a rat to someone in one Country they would throw up. If you served it somewhere else they would lick their lips. It's due to the relative nature of mind and their environment. It's Taiji.

 

 

 

5. After they've become an immortal. Before that they can only be as they were born.

 

Again I don't understand this notion of "becoming" an immortal, as if it simply just clicks and it happens suddenly.

It's a very progressive development.

 

And I don't agree with the second sentence either.

 

We are born as women, but we can chose to be and act as men.

We are born as men, but can chose to be and act as women

 

And again here we are getting very very relative and touching cultural views of masculinity and femininity.

 

More and more men nowadays are becoming more in touch and open with their emotions, does this make them gay or increase their chances of becoming homosexual because they are closer to women who usually have much more open hearts?

 

The way we develop prior to birth is due to the soul (asexual) and the prenatal jing, qi and shen and qijing ba mai, but the way we become after that, hetero or homo is due to how we develop at a very early age AFTER we are born obviously.

 

The soul is beyond duality and so genderless, it cannot be responsible for sexual orientation and gender.

 

If sexuality is something so vague and abstract yet you claim that it cannot change beyond what it is born as, then what does that say for the more physical aspects that we are born with in Taiji, like flesh and bones? You claim those can be transformed into the highest formless state, so why not something like sexuality which is already at the level of the acquired postnatal Shen? Surely that would take much less effort? 

 

How can the immaterial spirit that is beyond duality have a sexuality which is an expression of Yin and Yang? That is not Yuan Xing, but just a presentation.

effilang, you usually ask pretty big questions.  I will take a look at others' posts later.

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

The little ones are no fun

As far as I know immortals status is different for man and for woman, at least on Di Xian stage.

 

Spiritual Immortality has to do with the cultivation of the formless spirit. That is the goal of Neidan.

 

Any type of genuine spiritual cultivation focuses on this spirit which can only be cultivated in emptiness, which means one must already have found a way to reach the highest vibration in Taji (Shen) then push even deeper into the Dao to enter Wuji, where this transformation can begin and continue to take place.

 

The highest vibration of post natal Shen in Taji, is the lowest vibration in Wuji where spirit cultivation takes place and the immortal spirit is matured, incubated in primordial Qi that is the essence of Wuji.

 

Thus any definition which has the word "immortal" in it, implies that one has at minimum managed to project their awareness outside the realm of the physical Taiji and entered into Wuji, directly eliminating the concept of man and woman, which is of Taiji.

 

If there is still man and woman as a defining characteristic in a persons practice, then they are still practicing in Taiji, which means they are still yet only cultivating physical energy, which will die with the body and cannot transcend death.

 

When we begin to cultivate our Yin Shen to become Xiao Shen and from Xiao Shen to become Yang Shen, it may have our features, but that is not its true state.

 

IF anything a bisexual is CLOSER to the state of the formless spirit than a heterosexual

 

Please judge logically, we have different bodies (Ming), so when we engage Xing and Ming we would have somehow not equal result.

 

Yes, but I am not talking about dual-cultivation or bedchamber arts and someones sexual orientation does not alter their underlying structure on the most fundamental level. Our psychology can have a great effect on the rest of our body, but it has limitations. A homosexual person or a bisexual person or an asaxual person or a pansexual person has the same potential and energy system to cultivate the immortal spirit as a heterosexual.

 

The cultivation of the immortal spirit in Neidan has nothing to do with someones preference between fucking or getting fucked. Pardon my French :>

 

Also need to mention that in Traditional schools like WuLiupai the progress happens differently for man and woman.

 

Ah. The traditional argument. Wu Liu If i'm not mistaken is around 500-600 years old?

So if my school is older than yours, does it mean I'm more traditional than you?

 

So at least at Di Xian stage the Man-immortal and Woman immortal are different.

 

I never said anything about men or women, I was just talking about homosexuality and bisexuality in Neidan, in particular.

 

Furthermore at the Di Xian level, one is already well into the cultivation of the immortal spirit, which means they are already working with their awareness within Wuji. How then can there be the notion of man or woman in emptiness? This is not true emptiness, but relative emptiness, which means one has not shifted out of Taiji yet, but is still trapped in the physical realm.

 

If you see an immortal as a man or a woman, it is only because they project that way.

When you connect to one and see a man or a woman, ask them to show themselves in their formless state, and you will see the difference : )

What a great mixture of sources!

You are putting together buddhist studies, greeks and daoists.

 

Sort of like the Quanzhen with Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism?

Coincidentally, they are called the "Complete Reality."

It is exactly what our Teacher in China says about healing others. Unless a person has an unlimited primordial energy he better not heal anyone but finish his cultivation first. Otherwise he will waste it and wouldn't even be able to finish the practice.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

Interesting. We have similar principles in our tradition, only we do not have to finish our cultivation to get to the point of being able to continuously transform Wuji energy to Taiji so that we can influence another persons human energy (post jing,qi,shen) - it is due to the way in which we connect our Ren and Du. It's different from other schools.

The balance only seems to be subjective.

 

Lets return to the example with taste. In both deviations from balance - eating nothing and eating everything person would get sick. And would be healthy only in the point of balance. This balance is not subjective (being determined by person's mind), it is objective, being determined by the laws of nature (structure of human body).

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

Hmmmm... I think that it might be a bit of a contradiction to try and use the body as a means of establishing an objective absolutism.

 

The physical body is not absolute in its structure or function. Even when things appear to be the same, they are different. As long as there is the acquired mind in the equation (and that is always relative), the corresponding Qi and Jing will always be relative to that individual. After all, we know that in Taiji everything is relative.

 

Looking at the Taijitu you posted above we can see that clearly.

There is only one thing in relation to another.

Good and Bad are also relative.

The Dao and nature do not judge us.

Thus there is only karma in the consequences of our actions.

 

The human body is a very bad example of a constant, IMO.

Deviations, I'm sure you agree can come in varying degrees. 

In terms of the human being, these can be physical, energetic and psychological.

 

One persons prescribed medical treatment, can kill another.

 

How do we "balance" someone's taste who has had a glossectomy?

What about the ones that are born without a tongue at all, are they perpetually out of balance with nature?

The brain can also change physically overtime in a way which makes you taste differently. How do you re-balance that?

Is invasive surgery part of natures balancing act?

 

Can a human restore the balance of nature?

Is a human, nature?

Is man-made technology, nature?

 

If you never tell a blind person he is blind, and he lives on absolutely fine, who is to say he is out of balance?

Only a relative comparison can bring about an idea of in balance and out of balance, IMO.

 

Many of the medical standards which are used to diagnose people and measure peoples vitals have to be adjusted from person to person relative to their constitution. It's all relative here in this realm.

 

The only reason spiritual cultivation can be achieved only through 1 way; emptiness, is because the spirit is not of this realm.

That's why you have 10,000 Qigong systems, but only emptiness can lead you to cultivate the spirit. One deals with Taiji energy, the other with Wuji energy.

 

You said homosexuals are a deviation in Neidan, but Neidan has to do with the cultivation of the spirit that is asexual.

What about bisexuals then? Do we make an exception for them because they can make babies?

 

Taste is given people to distinguish good and bad food.

Agree. Let me put here one addition from WuLiupai and Yuxianpai Schools...

 

- ...60 years from now when we are all young (well, middle-aged is sill ok) and black-haired, we come together to approve a plan of spreading Real Dao in the West for the next 60 years...

 

I heartily wish this good result to every sincere daoshi here. See you!

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

I will see you then and bring my hairdresser to make sure you're not using any hair dye

Yinqiao channel is not a "middle mai". The last sentence ("Physicians...") means this Yinqiao is not from common "extraordinary channels" list.

 

AAK,

 

Are you talking about the Intersecting Yin Heel Vessel when you say Yinqiao, or is it something else?

If it is, I think it's common in acupuncture, albeit not used for the same purpose at all.

 

I vaguely recall a memory of a text to something of this degree:

The true immortal man breathes through the heels, referring to the Yang and Yin Heel Mai.

 

 

We don't use these in our tradition, but I know that it is part of Houtian xiulian and a necessity in the work of the great medicine after the internal and external agents have been combined.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

*cracks thread door door open slightly and pokes head in to see if will not get hit by flying book"

 

oh, ok... phew. The coast look clear   

 

I just want to pop in quickly, to drop a few ideas to stir some thinking.

I'd like to address the topic of: Can know alchemy of ones self vs Can only know alchemy from a teacher.

 

I will not speak in a matter of fact way so as to not offend anyone.

Again I just want to maybe trigger a thought process.

 

So. There is a theory in Daoism that says that while the fetus is undergoing development in the body up until around the first year post delivery into the world, the primary operating nature is that of the pre-heavenly nature and spirit (xiantian zhi shen), while the post-heavenly nature (houtian zhi shen) has yet to fully seat itself on the throne of active consciousness.

 

So it is like the Xiantian Shen is the rightful Emperor that gets overthrown by his Military General; Houtian Shen.

 

This condition of being is represented by the empty circle of Daoism; Wuji:

 

 

For the purpose of this illustration, for now just imagine the white circle to be a glowing orb of radiant brightness; an orb whose complex of spiritual energy in one aspect contains all our former life time memories and experiences. It is pristine and clear and tranquil and nothing gets in the way of it radiating its information outwards into the world through the medium of the physical body which it now occupies.

 

Because there is no obstruction from the acquired mind yet, it is said that at this age we are as close to the mind of the Dao as possible in earthly form : )

 

So a wise guy once said:

Carrying body and soul and embracing the one,
Can you avoid separation?
Attending fully and becoming supple,
Can you be as a newborn babe?

 

As practical evidence of this, we have many instances throughout our lives when children around this age and slightly older, are able to tap into talents and information from former lives and express them through their current body. Things that they have not learned yet themselves ie: amazing mathematical feats, amazing feats of artistry, playing instruments, speaking foreign languages, recollecting event from their former life on earth etc.

 

As development progresses, the 5 bodily senses continue their operation, absorbing new data from the environment and creating new relative concepts based on their experience of reality - the acquired consciousness begins to form, but here's the catch. At this point only one consciousness can actively seat on the throne, so as the acquired mind develops, the light of the primordial mind begins to wane... becoming eclipsed like a moon that looses its brightness, only slightly visible on the edges.

 

 

Thus the 5 thieves, steal the absolute radiance of the primordial spirit and replace it with relative ideas, where an IDEA is the coagulated result of data absorbed through the 5 external senses and conveyed to the brain by electrical impulses to fuse together into one "relative belief".

 

Essentially, we can both look at the same cloud in the sky, but because you are a biologist while I am a vegetable farmer; you might see the cloud to be in the shape of a complex protein, while i might see a simple potato. Yet, both experiences of life albeit it relative are both completely valid.

 

What if my eyes are less sensitive to the red wavelength and the color of an apple we both look at appear slightly different? What the skin on my hands is rougher than yours because I'm a blacksmith while you are a sake maker that has some of the softest skin on their hands? How would some soft silk feel to each of us relative to our senses? 

 

This is relative reality.

What is absolute reality? It is that which the Houtian Shen cannot touch and it It is in this question:

 

What is the silk and what is the apple when neither of us are there to experience it?:

Empty, but not Void.

 

How does it smell then, how does it feel, what is its structure and composition when there is no external consciousness to project onto it?

 

When the acquired consciousness thus obstructs the original mind, we also begin to lose our conscious access to this former lifetime information. Then the child who could draw like a master artist forgets how to do it and the one who could speak another language forgets how to speak it. It has not disappeared, but because the bandwidth of the connection between the Xiantian Zhi Shen and the Houtian Zhi Shen is limited (like an ethernet cable), the one that is drawing more information gets priority. And which of our minds is costantly active? The acquired mind of course, the thinking and intellectual mind. While the primordial Xiantian Zhi Shen resides in stillness.

 

Further evidence to this is that when one practices properly and begins to spark back the original mind into burning bright once again, we begin to recollect our past life events, our inherent talents also begin to trigger again and much more.

 

So the connection between Xiantian Shen and Houtian Shen is always there. The potential of the primordial is always seeded in the postnatal nature, ready to bet watered. How do we do it? By turning the light of the awareness around from projecting outside to project inside. When the awareness does not go outside and follow thoughts, when it resides in stillness, it begins to match the vibration of the original mind. This is why they say:

 

Leave your front door open, leave your back door open. Let your thoughts come and go, just dont serve them tea.

 

This is why it's very important for parents to carefully monitor their children at this age when they express some type of skill or knowing beyond knowing. Because if they catch it, it is like they hold a thread to the original mind and if they cultivate it by encouraging their child in this activity, that thread alone can serve to maintain a strong connection to the Xiantian Zhi Shen, giving that child a much greater chance of success in spiritual cultivation that other's whom did not receive that type of nurturing attention and were left to completely obscure their original nature, as naturally happens in Taiji.

 

This is also why those artists who catch that thread and cultivate it into their maturity, when they perform their art they always feel like they are having a divine experience. Whether it's playing music, or painting or doing a mathematical equations. It's because they were lucky enough to have good parents that encouraged their intuitive and innate divine creativity rather than supressing it. That's why I believe what Sir Ken Robinsons said in his famous TED talk; that school kills creativity, but as a Daoist, we can see the effect and rapidity of loss is much deeper than just creativity.

 

So, now that the foundation of my question has been built. Here is my question.

 

Do you believe that those whom have made Neidan progress in their former lives are incapable of accessing, retrieving and rekindling such information - bringing it to the foreground of conscious activity, youwei, where its experiential wisdom can be used to propel someone along the path of Neidan, at least to the level of their former life time's achievement?

 

The Yang energy of development takes quite a while to PEAK before Yin begins to arise strongly, maybe even up to puberty? Is this not one of the reasons why children make such good students of spiritual cultivation, because among other things of alchemical significance, they are far more in touch with their intuition and original mind as a result of having a less dominant Houtian Shen?

 

Would such a scenario not constitute the possibility of Neidan practice without the need for a teacher?

 

Maybe they will eventually need a teacher, because they only got to 60% of the way in their former lifetime, but how many people today even get to such a number? How many even get to 10% or even 1%?

 

Anyway. Just speculating as usual

 

*flies away

Yes this has been much of my work was to make attaining the taoist body of light of primary concern and not martial power.

 

So in my lineage this teaching was not and is still not common knowledge it was only for the head of the sect only. While the students had lesser alchemy that could in theory lead to the body of light but was next to impossible attaining that in a normal life span. 

 

While the master had the more powerful vehicle for attainment.

 

The upper dantian has the fake light while the middle dantian has the real light. When the essence of the spirit and body have met in the middle dantian creating the vajra the body will emit light and heat but this point is a conversion process. 

 

If the body gets to many blockages the spontaneous natural light will stop until the blockage is removed.

 

How cool would it be if one day some 60 years from now, when we are all old and gray, we can come together and have a nice dinner with tea and each share and demonstrate what we have all attained on our journeys?

 

Can you imagine that spirit of brotherhood and camaraderie?

No ego. No arrogance. Just dumplings, soup, cake and hopefully a lot of "magic?"

 

Loving brothers and sisters of the same origin meeting to share in the wonder of life?

Can we do it?

 

I think I like this spirit much better than fighting with each other : )

After all, we are all just walking each other back home, hand in hand.

 

Here is a picture of our Grandmaster initiating 3 Quan Zhen 全真 "Complete Perfection" Tao Shi (Taoist Priest) from Tian Hou Gong (Tian Hou Temple). 

 

We have been to many other temples and schools in China to do the same for their priests.

 

Different Schools, but they are together in one room, all Xiudao together.

Can we do it like them, or are we too special in The Dao Bums and our schools too good for one another?

 

I think we will be surprised by the result if we try it : )

 

Very good. Ill share a little of what I know of this. First it is very rare and hard to actually find a lineage or master that has the actual teaching to attain this harder to get a chance to learn it.

 

What I have seen in my own personal exp with masters that actually had the knowledge I mean the real core practice and still didnt attain it was due to a few reasons 

 

1. they wanted martial power primarily so that focused on that alchemy more instead.

2. They inherited the teachings and really didnt care about it but care more for the recognition for being the inheritor.

3. They had the alchemy but just never did it.

4. Or the sect had so many poltical issues that the master became mainly concerned with that.

 

Yes, sadly that is the case with most schools, but the method doesn't really matter in this case.

Even in Xiao Yao Pai, there are some people that fall into your category:

 

1. Their wisdom could not expand because of the desire for power, so Hu Fa Shen does not advance them.

2. Some people just want to be called a Daoist officially, but its not something on paper, it's in the conduct, life, heart and spirit. We have these cases in our school also. They lack the drive to continue to work and transform closer to Hu Fa Shen.

3. Very common for us also. Some people just get lazy. Just because we have Hu Fa Shen doesn't mean we have an on and off switch. We must give 50% and HFS also then can give 50%, that's how it works with us also.

4. We have our political issues to deal with also, but we are a spiritual school first, so that's our priority above all things.

 

So at the end of the day. We still have no evidence of their claim and so we must consider it speculation until proven otherwise.

 

We when can get a proper account of people who are not dying in their system, but ascend to heaven instead, then we can know it for sure. Until then we are just playing with our imaginations. Emitting heat and light, the body does naturally. Someone that cultivates their Taiji energy (physical) can enhance this property to the point that it appears "supernatural" to someone else, but its all still very far from physical transmutation of postnatal Qi to prenatal Qi or spiritual cultivation for that matter (which happens in Wuji). These manifestations are still only of the physical energy. When their physical body dies so will this function of its Taiji energy. It cannot be carried over into Wuji.

No no I just do my reasearch differently I have spoken to all those men and more you have to learn or get advice from people who actually attained it.....(you will have a greater success rate that way)

 

Because of this I have had much success.

 

You see when you start to attain this your body will start to emit heat and light when you are not doin anything this relates to primordial spontaneity aka the natural state.

 

Infact when one starts to reach this level the middle dantian will resonate with the aaaah sound. The primordial state is stillnes when this level is reached just sitting still will cause the light and heat vibration to start.

 

you see thats the difference FIRST HAND EXP.

 

Yes, but much of this is also manifested in other systems.

Going back to my question again:

 

If the people of their tradition transmute their physical matter and disappear into emptiness, what happened to the current master's master and that masters master? You didn't ask?

 

Were they buried or did they all disappear?

If so, how can the unmanifested formless pirmordial Qi of the Dao be buried?

 

Surely their students were there to send them off when they personally decided it was time to go, so there must be some evidence?

 

No obituary? No death certificate?

The investigation must go to the root and not just skim the surface.

So these questions must be answered also.

Thank you for your answer. However please don't only look at meaningless trolling. I'm posting there important quotes from many Daozang texts. I believe it would benefit every fellow member here.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

No doubt about it. The wisdom is clear. Please don't misunderstand me.

I appreciate the fact that you are here. The more people that are different that join this forum the better.

 

It's only through our differences that we can change. In nature we cannot see our face without the reflection of a surface with mirror properties. In the same way I believe we need other people around us to act as that mirror so that we can see ourselves and where we are and use our wisdom to question the differences between what we believe we are and what we actually are. We all refine ourselves in this way. Whether that mirror is a book, a human teacher an immortal or like the Daoist of old nature itself.

If we didn't do this we would be stuck in one place. We must Xiu Xin Yang Xing all the time.

 

So I appreciate all that is going on in the thread and everywhere else in the forum, as long as it is civil and respectful and grounded in facts as much as possible.

I cant speak for another man nor his final place of being.

 

Dematerializing and walking thru walls is something he and some of his students can do...

 

Which is not uncommon of hearing of practitioners mention this when they reach that level.

 

Very cool account of attaining rainbow body.

 

 

“I felt myself become lightweight, and felt myself covered by light. I became transparent, and saw red, white, purple and golden light, dazzling and splendid. There was a red lotus emitting bright light and I felt the energy channeling down inside of me. I was completely mesmerized in the wonderful and serene divinity of Rainbow Body. All my worries, attachment and ignorance were gone through this incredible empowerment of Rainbow Light Supreme Dharma. My wisdom blossomed, and my understanding of Buddhist teaching was elevated to a much higher level…I’m so grateful that Holy Master Ziguang Shang Shi taught us this supreme Dharama!”

 

http://www.guanghuanmizong.info/rainbow-body-esoteric-practice/

 

Then this 

 

A tibetan buddhist monk talking about how he attained this from the great perfection dharma of his lineage.

http://xuanfa.net/articles/i-finally-received-the-highest-buddha-dharma-the-xian-liang-great-perfection-dharma-initiation/

 

It all looks really good, but let's not be blind believers, ok?

Let's use some logic and common sense instead. Some basic wisdom : )

 

Let's ask in our minds. OK. So they claim these results. Surely this system did not appear for the first time in this generation, right? Can we go back one generation to look at their master. Did he get buried or did he disappear into the Dao?

 

How about we go back, 2 or 3 or 4 generations to look at their master's masters, what about them?

Buried or turned into the Rainbow Body?

 

Then after we ask the question we must investigate it.

If you believe it then maybe you can call them or e-mail them to ask them about it, so we can be sure : )

Dear effilang,

I will find time and answer your questions. BTW as you've asked your questions in http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42694-checking-liu-huayang thread - what is your opinion on that topic?

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

Thank you Mr Khokhlov,

 

I think there is too much talking and not enough walking in the thread.

You guys have spent posts upon posts discussing other peoples training diaries.

 

That is all that a book is, just someones thoughts and experiences written on a piece of paper.

We can never know it for real, and that many people follow the book does not make it evidence of truth, just like the bible : )

 

If the methods are so clearly explained and the information in the books is true, then anyone with mediocre ability should be able to attain that level. We should be able to see and know people that are not getting buried and cremated but disappear into the Dao, at least in the past century but we have no verifiable proof.

 

I am not reducing the importance of educating ones-self about things, theory is also important to some extent, but I strongly believe that one's school should be able to demonstrate their claims. We live in the 21st century now, nobody can use the argument anymore that the don't want to backup their claims, because demonstrating it would be so fantastical that people couldn't handle it or they would get persecuted or thrown in jail for superstition. Even in China where you could get thrown in jail for superstitious practices, I guarantee you that they cannot deny empirical evidence. It is just that when most schools and masters are called out, they are fall short of being able to offer any proof of their practices and are exposed as charlatans.

 

I don't like to get involved in these discussions about the old master's opinions and personal experiences, because our interpretation is relative to their reality, but never our own reality which we must cultivate.

 

In our school if we ever study any book, our aim is not to follow, but to lead ourselves to develop the wisdom those masters themselves had that allowed them to generate those experiences. Once we get those experiences then we can determine if there was truth in what they said, but even then you are just one person. It is only one proof and on it's own it cannot stand, but if 500 or 1000 or 10,000 people get the same result and make the same claims - then even the scientific community will be prompted to investigate it, because obviously "something" is going on beyond subjective reality.

 

I respect everyone's dedication to what they deem valuable, because that fire comes from the spirit, but the object of that dedication does not always have the same value for me.

 

I can answer most of the questions in the thread that both sides are asking each other, but I prefer not to lock myself in there, because we are just dancing around the old master's words. I would prefer to challenge the texts and beliefs when possible and help to evolve things.

 

Philosophy is stagnating Daoism and preventing it from evolving. If we look at any of the old sages, they were pioneers, they invented, they created, they introduced, they innovated. After Zhang Daoling instituted religious Daoism, ceremony and literature began to freeze people within the books and chain their mind from moving forward.

 

Nature is always transforming. In my experience the Celesial realm and the immortals have made some absolutely massive changes in the way they operate over the years in order to adapt to the way human society and our beliefs and consciousness have evolved. They never just stick to one way. They have adapted a lot to us in incredible ways, which when they are revealed one day will immediately break some aspects of many Daoist school's belief systems.

 

My opinion, Sir, is that the very fact that we have people coming together and sharing their minds is in itself amazing, but I just wish there would be less hostility between people, and more of an adventurous and playful nature. Just like children playing in the sand together : )

 

The Daoists were the SCIENTISTS of antiquity. Unsubstantiated belief would never fly. There had to be evidence, something that could be reproduced in others, regardless of their way of life, their job, their religion, their race or their nationality.

 

If it cannot be reproduced in others regardless of their constitution, then it is relative. If it is relative then it is not the highest Dao.

@grassmountainsage

 

I'm familiar with Lama Thunderbolt, he was quite the thing on here back in the day.

Do you believe that when Max dies he will not be buried like everyone else?

 

If he is buried or cremated (very likely), what happens to the whole theory of transforming the physical tissues?

Does he still eat, drink, breathe and excrete? How can it be if he has become a manifestation of primordial Qi?

 

What of his Masters through which he learned this method, did they not die and get buried?

 

Let's wait and see what happens when he dies, then we can resume the investigation

That's completely irrelevant to the current discussion. Have you even read it?

 

I think that the inability of post-heaven Qi (Taiji) to transform into pre-heaven Qi (Wuji) should be relevant in every Daoist discussion concerning Xianshu and Xiudao. Many old sages spent their lives underlining this point over and over with the aim of preventing people from practicing methods that kept them perpetually trapped in Taiji.

@grassmountain

 

I appreciate what you're saying, but I work in design and post-production and also do photography in my spare time - and can reproduce these images in around 30 minutes on my own. You just need to take two photographs: one with the person there and one without, then play with the first a little bit.

 

Here is a funny one of my hand. Maybe I can say that it's a little bit the essence of my physical body turning into Yang Shen?

 

 

If the person in the photograph was projecting his Yang Shen, then there would be a physical body and next to that Yang Shen, because they are not one and the same. One is the indestructible immortal body while the other is the impermanent physical body. So it would be minimum two entities and the physical body itself would not be distorted.

 

If the person in the photograph has absorbed his physical body completely and transformed post-natal Qi into pre-natal Qi.................  .................. then he probably wouldn't be spending his time in this realm and using his energy to sustain a physical state without VERY good reason.

 

What I mean is that the native frequency of Yang Shen naturally resides in Wuji and is manifested as Kong. To vibrate low enough to enter Taiji and fit within the 400-700 nanometer band of visible light so the eyes can catch it and lower yet so the hands of another person can feel it, and THEN to sustain that state indefinitely, would be an absolute waste of energy.

 

Someone who had such a speculative level of attainment and transmuted his physical essence into primordial Qi, would not need to eat, sleep, drink, excrete waste matter or even breathe Qi into their body (Qi as in air in this case). Do you know if the guy you spoke to had to do any of this?

 

Maybe his physical body was behind the camera taking the picture while his Yang Shen projection was the subject of the photo in front of the camera? We can speculate a lot, but where are the real accounts.

 

Here is a picture of our Shifu performing an initiation over 20 years ago while photoshop was still in its infancy. I don't think you could even UNDO back then because RAM was so low.

 

 

You can see the camera has captured a manifestation of the projection of his spiritual energy, but can we be sure? It's just a photo : ) 

 

We must know the truth ourselves and experience it. I have and I know that immortals' physical bodies are buried just like any human. It is post-natal Jing, Qi and Shen that cannot be converted into Pre-natal Dao.

 

Post San Bao is one thing Pre San Bao is another thing and Yang Shen is also another thing which we must "create". The physical body is just a vessel and a medium for transformation. It is like the beaker in the laboratory, you can mix the chemicals inside to create something, but that something doesn't absorb the glass of the beaker, we just wash the beaker and put it to dry or we can recycle the glass so that it can be used for something else like a wine glass.

 

We just contribute the body back to earth and return back to nature what is left of what we have eaten, breathed and drank.

I've highlighted questions in your message with blue, please see my answers below.

 

1. Thank you. I greatly appreciate forum members' attention.

2. If we understand why people die and know what effect alchemy does to human body - then yes. It is not an ultimate goal but it is necessary to pass this stage on the way of perfection. 

3. Right, human body is of material substance and is of Taiji world. When shenxian practice the last stage - 9 years facing a wall  he purifies the body completely. So the body is not being lost but being once again finally united with shenxian's yangshen.

 

4. If you asking about giving immortality secret to anyone - it is once again a question of a kid with nuclear weapon in his/her hand. It would simply turn our world to hell immediately as every single person needs to pass through perfection process and not just gain unlimited power to become the demon.

If your question is about teaching worthy students - it happens. Wu Chongxu was about 200 years old when he was teaching Liu Huayang. There is a number of masters in Taoist history who were taught by Laozi. And so on.

 

5. This one refers to the part I highlighted with red.

Man knowing a secret of immortality in a society is like a usual man with holding bag full of gold in room fool of gangsers. That is why Taoist Patriarchs have always hidden in mountains and almost never accepted invitations from Chinese rulers.

 

Date of birth without date of death - repeatedly for lot of Taoists would draw pretty much of unwanted attention and shouldn't be considered as a wise behavior. 

 

Please ask your further questions in this thread, I may miss something in other discussions.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for answering, however you left out the heart of my post, which is where I really wanted to know your thoughts:

 

Here you said:

 

Right, human body is of material substance and is of Taiji world. When shenxian practice the last stage - 9 years facing a wall  he purifies the body completely. So the body is not being lost but being once again finally united with shenxian's yangshen.

 

Theoretically, I can "imagine" it, but I have yet to see any practitioner transform their physical tissues into primordial Qi to become emptiness, and if this is really a genuine part of the later processes of Neidan, then why haven't we seen it even though we have so many lineage holders alive today who follow the old way and why do so many Daoist texts teach us that post-natal Qi cannot be converted to pre-natal Qi?

 

Here is the heart of my question:

 

In houtian xiulian, it seems that one of the main purposes of actively maintaining and attempting to maximize ones physical lifespan is a facility employed with the understanding that the cultivation of the subtle immortal spirit (Yang Shen) to the point of sufficient maturity, can be a very lengthy task, often decorated with many failures and re-tries, therefore it would behoove one to maintain the basis for this transformation healthy as long as is necessary for the Yang spirit to mature so that it can be consciously operated.

 

Do you think that it's possible this is the purpose of all the extensive physical regiments in houtian, as opposed to turning the material body into the immaterial? Didn't Zhang Boduan say somewhere that the material cannot beget the immaterial, making a differentiation between those that cultivate the impermanent post natal essence and those that trigger the cultivation of the prenatal essence, which leads to true attainment?

 

Zhang Daoling died around 122, but today there are some people who have lived to that age also that probably have never heard of Daoism. Legend says he turned into fairy dust and leaped up into the heavens with his body disappearing, but as you know, legend says that legend says that legend says. There is no proof. 

 

If I am not mistaken Zhang Boduan also died before he even reached 100.

 

Furthermore if there are still so many authentic Daoist schools who carry on the TRUE teachings as many of them claim and have been doing so for 100s or thousands of years, then where are their masters that were never burried or their students that followed the true way of the immortals and never died? There are many Daoist schools and temples today, where can we find these guys that do not age and die like everybody else, even when they are the official representatives of their ancient lineages?

 

As a convenient example, your school (please correct me if I'm wrong) has been transmitting it's methods which it claims are true for over 500 years now? .

 

A human life is on average around 80 years, you must have had many students since then. Can we assume something like 50 students every 100 years as a safe example?

Then were looking at around 250 students practicing students.

 

Of all these people and I appreciate its a rough figure (im speculating just to vaguely illustrate my point) - Is there any evidence of anyone actually transforming their body into spiritual energy and disappearing from the face of the earth or is it that everyone of the students and masters was buried or cremated like a normal person?

 

I am not implying that they were just any typical person, I am sure that their practice achieved them results beyond what most people outside of the xianshu were likely to achieve, but never the less, spiritual cultivation is a gradual process in almost every area. Nothing really ever just suddenly manifests. Usually, there is a process before hand that builds up or leads to a manifestation. My point is that If what you're saying is true, then I wouldn't expect people to suddenly disappear, but at the same time I would expect that at least there would be a gradual transition of the physical tissues from visible to invisible and during that time their practicing brothers and sisters of the Dao would be able to observe that.

 

Wuliu Pai is not the only Daoist school that believes this idea, yet all the masters we know of that we can see and feel and that are alive or at least have records of their lives were all buried and cremated.

 

How is it so? This is the discrepancy I was speaking of, and as a practitioner of one such school who believes in this form of transformation I want to know what you think about it.

 

I personally do not know any immortal that was not buried or one that managed to transform impermanent energy of Taiji into the divine energy of the Dao. Isn't this the basis of differentiation between Post-Natal energy cultivation and Pre-Natal energy cultivation, so that people do not mislead themselves by trying to convert the body into the spirit?

 

If we can convert physical energy from Taiji into spiritual energy that can exist in Wuji, couldn't we assume that scientists would one day invent a method to achieve immortality by the use of technology or even some method to open the Xuan Guan?

 

So again I'm wondering, how is it that the physical energy is converted into spiritual energy, when one is post celestial and the other is pre-celestial?

 

Those are my questions : )

I've highlighted questions in your message with blue, please see my answers below.

 

1. Thank you. I greatly appreciate forum members' attention.

2. If we understand why people die and know what effect alchemy does to human body - then yes. It is not an ultimate goal but it is necessary to pass this stage on the way of perfection. 

3. Right, human body is of material substance and is of Taiji world. When shenxian practice the last stage - 9 years facing a wall  he purifies the body completely. So the body is not being lost but being once again finally united with shenxian's yangshen.

 

4. If you asking about giving immortality secret to anyone - it is once again a question of a kid with nuclear weapon in his/her hand. It would simply turn our world to hell immediately as every single person needs to pass through perfection process and not just gain unlimited power to become the demon.

If your question is about teaching worthy students - it happens. Wu Chongxu was about 200 years old when he was teaching Liu Huayang. There is a number of masters in Taoist history who were taught by Laozi. And so on.

 

5. This one refers to the part I highlighted with red.

Man knowing a secret of immortality in a society is like a usual man with holding bag full of gold in room fool of gangsers. That is why Taoist Patriarchs have always hidden in mountains and almost never accepted invitations from Chinese rulers.

 

Date of birth without date of death - repeatedly for lot of Taoists would draw pretty much of unwanted attention and shouldn't be considered as a wise behavior.

 

Please ask your further questions in this thread, I may miss something in other discussions.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for answering, however you left out the heart of my post, which is where I really wanted to know your thoughts:

 

Here you said:

 

Right, human body is of material substance and is of Taiji world. When shenxian practice the last stage - 9 years facing a wall  he purifies the body completely. So the body is not being lost but being once again finally united with shenxian's yangshen.

 

Theoretically, I can "imagine" it, but I have yet to see any practitioner transform their physical tissues into primordial Qi to become emptiness, and if this is really a genuine part of the later processes of Neidan, then why haven't we seen it even though we have so many lineage holders alive today who follow the old way and why do so many Daoist texts teach us that post-natal Qi cannot be converted to pre-natal Qi?

 

Here is the heart of my question:

 

In houtian xiulian, it seems that one of the main purposes of actively maintaining and attempting to maximize ones physical lifespan is a facility employed with the understanding that the cultivation of the subtle immortal spirit (Yang Shen) to the point of sufficient maturity, can be a very lengthy task, often decorated with many failures and re-tries, therefore it would behoove one to maintain the basis for this transformation healthy as long as is necessary for the Yang spirit to mature so that it can be consciously operated.

 

Do you think that it's possible this is the purpose of all the extensive physical regiments in houtian, as opposed to turning the material body into the immaterial? Didn't Zhang Boduan say somewhere that the material cannot beget the immaterial, making a differentiation between those that cultivate the impermanent post natal essence and those that trigger the cultivation of the prenatal essence, which leads to true attainment?

 

Zhang Daoling died around 122, but today there are some people who have lived to that age also that probably have never heard of Daoism. Legend says he turned into fairy dust and leaped up into the heavens with his body disappearing, but as you know, legend says that legend says that legend says. There is no proof. 

 

If I am not mistaken Zhang Boduan also died before he even reached 100.

 

Furthermore if there are still so many authentic Daoist schools who carry on the TRUE teachings as many of them claim and have been doing so for 100s or thousands of years, then where are their masters that were never burried or their students that followed the true way of the immortals and never died? There are many Daoist schools and temples today, where can we find these guys that do not age and die like everybody else, even when they are the official representatives of their ancient lineages?

 

As a convenient example, your school (please correct me if I'm wrong) has been transmitting it's methods which it claims are true for over 500 years now? .

 

A human life is on average around 80 years, you must have had many students since then. Can we assume something like 50 students every 100 years as a safe example?

Then were looking at around 250 students practicing students.

 

Of all these people and I appreciate its a rough figure (im speculating just to vaguely illustrate my point) - Is there any evidence of anyone actually transforming their body into spiritual energy and disappearing from the face of the earth or is it that everyone of the students and masters was buried or cremated like a normal person? - AND if this is so, then doesn't it imply that nobody from your school has achieved that level yet?

 

I am not implying that they were just any typical person, I am sure that their practice achieved them results beyond what most people outside of the xianshu were likely to achieve, but never the less, spiritual cultivation is a gradual process in almost every area. Nothing really ever just suddenly manifests. Usually, there is a process before hand that builds up or leads to a manifestation. My point is that If what you're saying is true, then I wouldn't expect people to suddenly disappear, but at the same time I would expect that at least there would be a gradual transition of the physical tissues from visible to invisible and during that time their practicing brothers and sisters of the Dao would be able to observe that.

 

Wuliu Pai is not the only Daoist school that believes this idea, yet all the masters we know of that we can see and feel and that are alive or at least have records of their lives were all buried and cremated.

 

How is it so? This is the discrepancy I was speaking of, and as a practitioner of one such school who believes in this form of transformation I want to know what you think about it.

 

I personally do not know any immortal that was not buried or one that managed to transform impermanent energy of Taiji into the divine energy of the Dao. Isn't this the basis of differentiation between Post-Natal energy cultivation and Pre-Natal energy cultivation, so that people do not mislead themselves by trying to convert the body into the spirit?

 

If we can convert physical energy from Taiji into spiritual energy that can exist in Wuji, couldn't we assume that scientists would one day invent a method to achieve immortality by the use of technology or even some method to open the Xuan Guan?

 

So again I'm wondering, how is it that the physical energy is converted into spiritual energy, when one is post celestial and the other is pre-celestial?

 

Those are my questions : )

Hello A.A.Khokhlov,

 

Thank you for joining the forum and sharing your ideas with us. It has been really refreshing to see a represenative of Wu Liu Pai on the Tao Bums that carries himself with respect and integrity, and I appreciate you taking your time to reply to everyone's questions in such a way as to trigger productive debates and stimulate thinking.

 

One of your posts stood out to me as It juxtaposes very contrastingly with Xiantian practice in my school. While I appreciate and understand the necessity for this approach in Houtian, how do you reconcile this with the fact that almost all masters were buried or cremated?

 

Is it necessary to escape physical death to become an immortal?

 

What is the correlation between escaping physical death and spiritual immortality?

Isn't life part of the process of cultivation itself which goes on even when immortality is being cultivated.

Why do we have to escape at all? What is there to escape from?

 

In houtian xiulian, it seems that one of the main purposes of actively maintaining and attempting to maximize ones physical lifespan is a facility employed with the understanding that the cultivation of the subtle immortal spirit (Yang Shen) to the point of sufficient maturity, can be a very lengthy task, often decorated with many failures and re-tries, therefore it would behoove one to maintain the basis for this transformation healthy as long as is necessary for the Yang spirit to mature so that it can be consciously operated.

 

Do you think that it's possible this is the purpose of all the extensive physical regiments in houtian, as opposed to turning the material body into the immaterial? Didn't Zhang Boduan say somewhere that the material cannot beget the immaterial, making a differentiation between those that cultivate the impermanent post natal essence and those that trigger the cultivation of the prenatal essence, which leads to true attainment?

 

In my experience physical matter born from Taichi, governed by the laws of Yin and Yang itself; such as a human beings that are formed of the 5 elements, cannot pass through the Xuan Guan and enter Wuji. Even the highest post natal energy of Shen in the human body cannot pass through Xuan Guan, which is why we must detach from the 5 thieves. Only the immaterial spirits residing in/out of the body can do this - OR, do you maintain that the physical mass and tissues of the body are transformed into immortalized spiritual essence that merge with our developing Yang Shen, the essence of which both come together to form one being?

 

Again if this is the standard for transformation in spiritual Daoism, then how come so many of the old masters were buried and cremated?

 

Even if we look at Daoist schools today. Whose school had Benjamin Button for a master and if they could live without aging or sickness, why didn't they simply continue to teach to benefit humanity?

 

Most immortals spend a vast majority of their time (they are beyond spacetime) in helping other beings and humans. Why throw away the convenience of a life born on earth, where the body has been cultivated to a state where it cannot die or age or feel sickness, and they have spiritual powers and continue to use it to help people, rather than to abandon a young and vibrant body of 90 years of age, exit Taichi, enter Wuji and then proceed to guide people from that dimension where even vibrating down from the absolute to enter the relative realm on Earth burns off Gong De?

It seems like a ridiculously inefficient decision from someone who at that level should be incredibly wise and filled with a desire to help other beings awaken, as is evidenced by the activity of immortals. What better place to do it that on earth? The human condition is perfect for it. Yet, somehow we see quite the opposite with most of masters dying quite early.

 

Zhang Daoling died around 122, but today there are some people who have lived to that age also that probably have never heard of Daoism. Legend says he turned into fairy dust and leaped up into the heavens with his body disappearing, but as you know, legend says that legend says that legend says. There is no proof. 

 

If I am not mistaken Zhang Boduan also died before he even reached 100.

 

Furthermore if there are still so many authentic Daoist schools who carry on the TRUE teachings as many of them claim and have been doing so for 100s or thousands of years, then where are their masters that were never burried or their students that followed the true way of the immortals and never died? There are many Daoist schools and temples today, where can we find these guys that do not age and die like everybody else, even when they are the official representatives of their ancient lineages?

 

I'd love to know what you think of these discrepancies between cultivating the material body as a means of reaching the spirit vs cultivating the spirit directly and allowing the physical body to die in Taiji and return to the earth following nature.

 

In my tradition we focus almost fully on the cultivation of the immaterial spirit, because in our experience this is the only type of energy that can penetrate into Wuji and is suitable to form a whole with our awareness, so that  both can exist as one vehicle: Awareness + Spiritual Body. Having said that, we also we also practice charity, live in society so we can develop our intellect and basic wisdom and perform humanitarian activities and contribute to society to help the lives of others.

 

I'm curious to know what you think.

 

Hi Mr. Khokhlov,

 

I know that there's been a lot of posts flying left and right, so you might have missed this one.

I'm just re-posting it here, because I'm genuinely curious about your thoughts on the matter.

 

Do you think you'll have time to answer it in the near future?

Thank you in advance : )

If you won't meet a guidance from true teacher - all of it are stupid actions.

 

Hmmm..

 

How can the ignorant student incapable of effectively vetting his master due to his own lack of practical experience, truly recognize a true teacher from a false teacher, especially if the teacher is incapable of providing immediate evidence of the results which are being sought?

 

Is to trust such a teacher not a stupid action of itself or are we reduced to the option of blind faith vs wisdom and common sense in these scenarios?

 

In houtian xiulian, one human master practicing immortality is teaching another human student practicing immortality.

 

How can the master teach that which he has yet to fully accomplish himself?

It seems that he would only be able to take the student as far as his own achievements, before having to revert again to the uncertainty of books.

 

If a school is teaching immortality, then there must be at least one immortal in the school and by your definition this is someone who gets young instead of old, has escaped death and sickness. Where can we find this person in each Daoist school today and why are they not a little more popular, because if there isn't at least one immortal in each Daoist school, then it means that to some extent everyone is chasing the other persons tail and the dog in front actually has no personal experience of the final state.

 

What happens in such a case?

 

Can we speculate that there are other reservoirs of instruction and guidance that one can tap into to in order to continue their cultivation after such a stage and if yes, then in what shape or form do you think they are represented, since books cannot be relied on fully?

 

Do you believe that it is impossible for one to learn to cultivate their spirit on their own? Surely at some point in humanity there must have been a time when nobody had yet begun spiritual cultivation, then suddenly someone was triggered to pursue it. Did they not learn on their own or did an immortal come down to teach the first human? Because it begs the question, where did the teacher of the first person to practice spiritual cultivation come from?

 

Must there always be a transferred method or is it possible to attain samadhi, reside in emptiness and have the primordial Qi of the Dao transform our spirit automatically through wu wei?

 

Slightly unrelated but three nice texts come to mind:

 

---------------------------------------------

"When the nine-year practice is concluded, in its non-doing, one’s Nature is of its own perfect, and in its formlessness, one’s Spirit is of its own wondrous. When Spirit is wondrous, its transformations are inexhaustible, and its states of manifestation and non-manifestation are unfathomable. When Nature is perfect, its wisdom illuminates all directions, and in its being numinous and pervasive, it can suffer no damage. Therefore one can can divide one’s being into a myriad beings that manifest themselves in limitless ways, while one’s own body of utmost reality dwells in the realm of utmost quiescence, silent and ceaselessly abiding in non-doing. This is because one’s Nature, one’s Spirit, one’s form, and one’s existence are joined in their reality with the reality of the Dao."

---------------------------------------------

"What should we expect?

Should we really think it curious to never have known an immortal? At a hundred paces the eyes do not see everything clearly, so we decide to see certain things as existent and others as nonexistent. Surely because of our ignorant discriminations there will be many things in the world we will decide do not exist. This is like saying,

" The ocean is no deeper than the depth I can measure with my finger. "

---------------------------------------------

Unborn and imperishable Is the original mind

Earth, water, fire and wind

A temporary lodging for the night

Attached to this ephemeral burning house

You yourselves light the fire, kindle the flames

In which you're consumed..

---------------------------------------------

First person is getting born, then becoming adult, becoming old, getting illnesses and finally dies. None of above is a subject of change except the case person is practicing Real Dao - from old getting young, from sick getting healthy, escaping from death and becoming an immortal.

 

Hello A.A.Khokhlov,

 

Thank you for joining the forum and sharing your ideas with us. It has been really refreshing to see a represenative of Wu Liu Pai on the Tao Bums that carries himself with respect and integrity, and I appreciate you taking your time to reply to everyone's questions in such a way as to trigger productive debates and stimulate thinking.

 

One of your posts stood out to me as It juxtaposes very contrastingly with Xiantian practice in my school. While I appreciate and understand the necessity for this approach in Houtian, how do you reconcile this with the fact that almost all masters were buried or cremated?

 

Is it necessary to escape physical death to become an immortal?

 

What is the correlation between escaping physical death and spiritual immortality?

Isn't life part of the process of cultivation itself which goes on even when immortality is being cultivated.

Why do we have to escape at all? What is there to escape from?

 

In houtian xiulian, it seems that one of the main purposes of actively maintaining and attempting to maximize ones physical lifespan is a facility employed with the understanding that the cultivation of the subtle immortal spirit (Yang Shen) to the point of sufficient maturity, can be a very lengthy task, often decorated with many failures and re-tries, therefore it would behoove one to maintain the basis for this transformation healthy as long as is necessary for the Yang spirit to mature so that it can be consciously operated.

 

Do you think that it's possible this is the purpose of all the extensive physical regiments in houtian, as opposed to turning the material body into the immaterial? Didn't Zhang Boduan say somewhere that the material cannot beget the immaterial, making a differentiation between those that cultivate the impermanent post natal essence and those that trigger the cultivation of the prenatal essence, which leads to true attainment?

 

In my experience physical matter born from Taichi, governed by the laws of Yin and Yang itself; such as a human beings that are formed of the 5 elements, cannot pass through the Xuan Guan and enter Wuji. Even the highest post natal energy of Shen in the human body cannot pass through Xuan Guan, which is why we must detach from the 5 thieves. Only the immaterial spirits residing in/out of the body can do this - OR, do you maintain that the physical mass and tissues of the body are transformed into immortalized spiritual essence that merge with our developing Yang Shen, the essence of which both come together to form one being?

 

Again if this is the standard for transformation in spiritual Daoism, then how come so many of the old masters were buried and cremated?

 

Even if we look at Daoist schools today. Whose school had Benjamin Button for a master and if they could live without aging or sickness, why didn't they simply continue to teach to benefit humanity?

 

Most immortals spend a vast majority of their time (they are beyond spacetime) in helping other beings and humans. Why throw away the convenience of a life born on earth, where the body has been cultivated to a state where it cannot die or age or feel sickness, and they have spiritual powers and continue to use it to help people, rather than to abandon a young and vibrant body of 90 years of age, exit Taichi, enter Wuji and then proceed to guide people from that dimension where even vibrating down from the absolute to enter the relative realm on Earth burns off Gong De?

It seems like a ridiculously inefficient decision from someone who at that level should be incredibly wise and filled with a desire to help other beings awaken, as is evidenced by the activity of immortals. What better place to do it that on earth? The human condition is perfect for it. Yet, somehow we see quite the opposite with most of masters dying quite early.

 

Zhang Daoling died around 122, but today there are some people who have lived to that age also that probably have never heard of Daoism. Legend says he turned into fairy dust and leaped up into the heavens with his body disappearing, but as you know, legend says that legend says that legend says. There is no proof. 

 

If I am not mistaken Zhang Boduan also died before he even reached 100.

 

Furthermore if there are still so many authentic Daoist schools who carry on the TRUE teachings as many of them claim and have been doing so for 100s or thousands of years, then where are their masters that were never burried or their students that followed the true way of the immortals and never died? There are many Daoist schools and temples today, where can we find these guys that do not age and die like everybody else, even when they are the official representatives of their ancient lineages?

 

I'd love to know what you think of these discrepancies between cultivating the material body as a means of reaching the spirit vs cultivating the spirit directly and allowing the physical body to die in Taiji and return to the earth following nature.

 

In my tradition we focus almost fully on the cultivation of the immaterial spirit, because in our experience this is the only type of energy that can penetrate into Wuji and is suitable to form a whole with our awareness, so that  both can exist as one vehicle: Awareness + Spiritual Body. Having said that, we also we also practice charity, live in society so we can develop our intellect and basic wisdom and perform humanitarian activities and contribute to society to help the lives of others.

 

I'm curious to know what you think.

Just set up an appointment, you can find their email on their website. You can say that you are investigating Xiao Yao Pai and our Shifu, Li Shang Hu, then just ask them if it's OK to see the official list of China's Daoist clans. Have a nice trip.

 

Your senior A.A.K. said that he was going to check us out. I'd like to invite him to our next initiation so he can investigate us in person, free of charge. If he is a the level to communicate with the divine realm, I'm more than happy to introduce him directly to my Hu Fa Shen, so they can speak together. Either way it would be nice to meet him.

 

He conveys himself with dignity and respect in his posts, so I can see why you are his junior, as you severely lack that conduct in your communication. Its nice to see a more refined representation of your school on the forum.

Effliang, very scholarly and alot to digest.  Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed account of your system.  

 

Much obliged.