effilang

Yes this has been much of my work was to make attaining the taoist body of light of primary concern and not martial power.

 

So in my lineage this teaching was not and is still not common knowledge it was only for the head of the sect only. While the students had lesser alchemy that could in theory lead to the body of light but was next to impossible attaining that in a normal life span. 

 

While the master had the more powerful vehicle for attainment.

 

The upper dantian has the fake light while the middle dantian has the real light. When the essence of the spirit and body have met in the middle dantian creating the vajra the body will emit light and heat but this point is a conversion process. 

 

If the body gets to many blockages the spontaneous natural light will stop until the blockage is removed.

 

How cool would it be if one day some 60 years from now, when we are all old and gray, we can come together and have a nice dinner with tea and each share and demonstrate what we have all attained on our journeys?

 

Can you imagine that spirit of brotherhood and camaraderie?

No ego. No arrogance. Just dumplings, soup, cake and hopefully a lot of "magic?"

 

Loving brothers and sisters of the same origin meeting to share in the wonder of life?

Can we do it?

 

I think I like this spirit much better than fighting with each other : )

After all, we are all just walking each other back home, hand in hand.

 

Here is a picture of our Grandmaster initiating 3 Quan Zhen 全真 "Complete Perfection" Tao Shi (Taoist Priest) from Tian Hou Gong (Tian Hou Temple). 

 

We have been to many other temples and schools in China to do the same for their priests.

 

Different Schools, but they are together in one room, all Xiudao together.

Can we do it like them, or are we too special in The Dao Bums and our schools too good for one another?

 

I think we will be surprised by the result if we try it : )

 

Very good. Ill share a little of what I know of this. First it is very rare and hard to actually find a lineage or master that has the actual teaching to attain this harder to get a chance to learn it.

 

What I have seen in my own personal exp with masters that actually had the knowledge I mean the real core practice and still didnt attain it was due to a few reasons 

 

1. they wanted martial power primarily so that focused on that alchemy more instead.

2. They inherited the teachings and really didnt care about it but care more for the recognition for being the inheritor.

3. They had the alchemy but just never did it.

4. Or the sect had so many poltical issues that the master became mainly concerned with that.

 

Yes, sadly that is the case with most schools, but the method doesn't really matter in this case.

Even in Xiao Yao Pai, there are some people that fall into your category:

 

1. Their wisdom could not expand because of the desire for power, so Hu Fa Shen does not advance them.

2. Some people just want to be called a Daoist officially, but its not something on paper, it's in the conduct, life, heart and spirit. We have these cases in our school also. They lack the drive to continue to work and transform closer to Hu Fa Shen.

3. Very common for us also. Some people just get lazy. Just because we have Hu Fa Shen doesn't mean we have an on and off switch. We must give 50% and HFS also then can give 50%, that's how it works with us also.

4. We have our political issues to deal with also, but we are a spiritual school first, so that's our priority above all things.

 

So at the end of the day. We still have no evidence of their claim and so we must consider it speculation until proven otherwise.

 

We when can get a proper account of people who are not dying in their system, but ascend to heaven instead, then we can know it for sure. Until then we are just playing with our imaginations. Emitting heat and light, the body does naturally. Someone that cultivates their Taiji energy (physical) can enhance this property to the point that it appears "supernatural" to someone else, but its all still very far from physical transmutation of postnatal Qi to prenatal Qi or spiritual cultivation for that matter (which happens in Wuji). These manifestations are still only of the physical energy. When their physical body dies so will this function of its Taiji energy. It cannot be carried over into Wuji.

No no I just do my reasearch differently I have spoken to all those men and more you have to learn or get advice from people who actually attained it.....(you will have a greater success rate that way)

 

Because of this I have had much success.

 

You see when you start to attain this your body will start to emit heat and light when you are not doin anything this relates to primordial spontaneity aka the natural state.

 

Infact when one starts to reach this level the middle dantian will resonate with the aaaah sound. The primordial state is stillnes when this level is reached just sitting still will cause the light and heat vibration to start.

 

you see thats the difference FIRST HAND EXP.

 

Yes, but much of this is also manifested in other systems.

Going back to my question again:

 

If the people of their tradition transmute their physical matter and disappear into emptiness, what happened to the current master's master and that masters master? You didn't ask?

 

Were they buried or did they all disappear?

If so, how can the unmanifested formless pirmordial Qi of the Dao be buried?

 

Surely their students were there to send them off when they personally decided it was time to go, so there must be some evidence?

 

No obituary? No death certificate?

The investigation must go to the root and not just skim the surface.

So these questions must be answered also.

Thank you for your answer. However please don't only look at meaningless trolling. I'm posting there important quotes from many Daozang texts. I believe it would benefit every fellow member here.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

No doubt about it. The wisdom is clear. Please don't misunderstand me.

I appreciate the fact that you are here. The more people that are different that join this forum the better.

 

It's only through our differences that we can change. In nature we cannot see our face without the reflection of a surface with mirror properties. In the same way I believe we need other people around us to act as that mirror so that we can see ourselves and where we are and use our wisdom to question the differences between what we believe we are and what we actually are. We all refine ourselves in this way. Whether that mirror is a book, a human teacher an immortal or like the Daoist of old nature itself.

If we didn't do this we would be stuck in one place. We must Xiu Xin Yang Xing all the time.

 

So I appreciate all that is going on in the thread and everywhere else in the forum, as long as it is civil and respectful and grounded in facts as much as possible.

I cant speak for another man nor his final place of being.

 

Dematerializing and walking thru walls is something he and some of his students can do...

 

Which is not uncommon of hearing of practitioners mention this when they reach that level.

 

Very cool account of attaining rainbow body.

 

 

“I felt myself become lightweight, and felt myself covered by light. I became transparent, and saw red, white, purple and golden light, dazzling and splendid. There was a red lotus emitting bright light and I felt the energy channeling down inside of me. I was completely mesmerized in the wonderful and serene divinity of Rainbow Body. All my worries, attachment and ignorance were gone through this incredible empowerment of Rainbow Light Supreme Dharma. My wisdom blossomed, and my understanding of Buddhist teaching was elevated to a much higher level…I’m so grateful that Holy Master Ziguang Shang Shi taught us this supreme Dharama!”

 

http://www.guanghuanmizong.info/rainbow-body-esoteric-practice/

 

Then this 

 

A tibetan buddhist monk talking about how he attained this from the great perfection dharma of his lineage.

http://xuanfa.net/articles/i-finally-received-the-highest-buddha-dharma-the-xian-liang-great-perfection-dharma-initiation/

 

It all looks really good, but let's not be blind believers, ok?

Let's use some logic and common sense instead. Some basic wisdom : )

 

Let's ask in our minds. OK. So they claim these results. Surely this system did not appear for the first time in this generation, right? Can we go back one generation to look at their master. Did he get buried or did he disappear into the Dao?

 

How about we go back, 2 or 3 or 4 generations to look at their master's masters, what about them?

Buried or turned into the Rainbow Body?

 

Then after we ask the question we must investigate it.

If you believe it then maybe you can call them or e-mail them to ask them about it, so we can be sure : )

Dear effilang,

I will find time and answer your questions. BTW as you've asked your questions in http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42694-checking-liu-huayang thread - what is your opinion on that topic?

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

Thank you Mr Khokhlov,

 

I think there is too much talking and not enough walking in the thread.

You guys have spent posts upon posts discussing other peoples training diaries.

 

That is all that a book is, just someones thoughts and experiences written on a piece of paper.

We can never know it for real, and that many people follow the book does not make it evidence of truth, just like the bible : )

 

If the methods are so clearly explained and the information in the books is true, then anyone with mediocre ability should be able to attain that level. We should be able to see and know people that are not getting buried and cremated but disappear into the Dao, at least in the past century but we have no verifiable proof.

 

I am not reducing the importance of educating ones-self about things, theory is also important to some extent, but I strongly believe that one's school should be able to demonstrate their claims. We live in the 21st century now, nobody can use the argument anymore that the don't want to backup their claims, because demonstrating it would be so fantastical that people couldn't handle it or they would get persecuted or thrown in jail for superstition. Even in China where you could get thrown in jail for superstitious practices, I guarantee you that they cannot deny empirical evidence. It is just that when most schools and masters are called out, they are fall short of being able to offer any proof of their practices and are exposed as charlatans.

 

I don't like to get involved in these discussions about the old master's opinions and personal experiences, because our interpretation is relative to their reality, but never our own reality which we must cultivate.

 

In our school if we ever study any book, our aim is not to follow, but to lead ourselves to develop the wisdom those masters themselves had that allowed them to generate those experiences. Once we get those experiences then we can determine if there was truth in what they said, but even then you are just one person. It is only one proof and on it's own it cannot stand, but if 500 or 1000 or 10,000 people get the same result and make the same claims - then even the scientific community will be prompted to investigate it, because obviously "something" is going on beyond subjective reality.

 

I respect everyone's dedication to what they deem valuable, because that fire comes from the spirit, but the object of that dedication does not always have the same value for me.

 

I can answer most of the questions in the thread that both sides are asking each other, but I prefer not to lock myself in there, because we are just dancing around the old master's words. I would prefer to challenge the texts and beliefs when possible and help to evolve things.

 

Philosophy is stagnating Daoism and preventing it from evolving. If we look at any of the old sages, they were pioneers, they invented, they created, they introduced, they innovated. After Zhang Daoling instituted religious Daoism, ceremony and literature began to freeze people within the books and chain their mind from moving forward.

 

Nature is always transforming. In my experience the Celesial realm and the immortals have made some absolutely massive changes in the way they operate over the years in order to adapt to the way human society and our beliefs and consciousness have evolved. They never just stick to one way. They have adapted a lot to us in incredible ways, which when they are revealed one day will immediately break some aspects of many Daoist school's belief systems.

 

My opinion, Sir, is that the very fact that we have people coming together and sharing their minds is in itself amazing, but I just wish there would be less hostility between people, and more of an adventurous and playful nature. Just like children playing in the sand together : )

 

The Daoists were the SCIENTISTS of antiquity. Unsubstantiated belief would never fly. There had to be evidence, something that could be reproduced in others, regardless of their way of life, their job, their religion, their race or their nationality.

 

If it cannot be reproduced in others regardless of their constitution, then it is relative. If it is relative then it is not the highest Dao.

@grassmountainsage

 

I'm familiar with Lama Thunderbolt, he was quite the thing on here back in the day.

Do you believe that when Max dies he will not be buried like everyone else?

 

If he is buried or cremated (very likely), what happens to the whole theory of transforming the physical tissues?

Does he still eat, drink, breathe and excrete? How can it be if he has become a manifestation of primordial Qi?

 

What of his Masters through which he learned this method, did they not die and get buried?

 

Let's wait and see what happens when he dies, then we can resume the investigation

That's completely irrelevant to the current discussion. Have you even read it?

 

I think that the inability of post-heaven Qi (Taiji) to transform into pre-heaven Qi (Wuji) should be relevant in every Daoist discussion concerning Xianshu and Xiudao. Many old sages spent their lives underlining this point over and over with the aim of preventing people from practicing methods that kept them perpetually trapped in Taiji.

@grassmountain

 

I appreciate what you're saying, but I work in design and post-production and also do photography in my spare time - and can reproduce these images in around 30 minutes on my own. You just need to take two photographs: one with the person there and one without, then play with the first a little bit.

 

Here is a funny one of my hand. Maybe I can say that it's a little bit the essence of my physical body turning into Yang Shen?

 

 

If the person in the photograph was projecting his Yang Shen, then there would be a physical body and next to that Yang Shen, because they are not one and the same. One is the indestructible immortal body while the other is the impermanent physical body. So it would be minimum two entities and the physical body itself would not be distorted.

 

If the person in the photograph has absorbed his physical body completely and transformed post-natal Qi into pre-natal Qi.................  .................. then he probably wouldn't be spending his time in this realm and using his energy to sustain a physical state without VERY good reason.

 

What I mean is that the native frequency of Yang Shen naturally resides in Wuji and is manifested as Kong. To vibrate low enough to enter Taiji and fit within the 400-700 nanometer band of visible light so the eyes can catch it and lower yet so the hands of another person can feel it, and THEN to sustain that state indefinitely, would be an absolute waste of energy.

 

Someone who had such a speculative level of attainment and transmuted his physical essence into primordial Qi, would not need to eat, sleep, drink, excrete waste matter or even breathe Qi into their body (Qi as in air in this case). Do you know if the guy you spoke to had to do any of this?

 

Maybe his physical body was behind the camera taking the picture while his Yang Shen projection was the subject of the photo in front of the camera? We can speculate a lot, but where are the real accounts.

 

Here is a picture of our Shifu performing an initiation over 20 years ago while photoshop was still in its infancy. I don't think you could even UNDO back then because RAM was so low.

 

 

You can see the camera has captured a manifestation of the projection of his spiritual energy, but can we be sure? It's just a photo : ) 

 

We must know the truth ourselves and experience it. I have and I know that immortals' physical bodies are buried just like any human. It is post-natal Jing, Qi and Shen that cannot be converted into Pre-natal Dao.

 

Post San Bao is one thing Pre San Bao is another thing and Yang Shen is also another thing which we must "create". The physical body is just a vessel and a medium for transformation. It is like the beaker in the laboratory, you can mix the chemicals inside to create something, but that something doesn't absorb the glass of the beaker, we just wash the beaker and put it to dry or we can recycle the glass so that it can be used for something else like a wine glass.

 

We just contribute the body back to earth and return back to nature what is left of what we have eaten, breathed and drank.

I've highlighted questions in your message with blue, please see my answers below.

 

1. Thank you. I greatly appreciate forum members' attention.

2. If we understand why people die and know what effect alchemy does to human body - then yes. It is not an ultimate goal but it is necessary to pass this stage on the way of perfection. 

3. Right, human body is of material substance and is of Taiji world. When shenxian practice the last stage - 9 years facing a wall  he purifies the body completely. So the body is not being lost but being once again finally united with shenxian's yangshen.

 

4. If you asking about giving immortality secret to anyone - it is once again a question of a kid with nuclear weapon in his/her hand. It would simply turn our world to hell immediately as every single person needs to pass through perfection process and not just gain unlimited power to become the demon.

If your question is about teaching worthy students - it happens. Wu Chongxu was about 200 years old when he was teaching Liu Huayang. There is a number of masters in Taoist history who were taught by Laozi. And so on.

 

5. This one refers to the part I highlighted with red.

Man knowing a secret of immortality in a society is like a usual man with holding bag full of gold in room fool of gangsers. That is why Taoist Patriarchs have always hidden in mountains and almost never accepted invitations from Chinese rulers.

 

Date of birth without date of death - repeatedly for lot of Taoists would draw pretty much of unwanted attention and shouldn't be considered as a wise behavior. 

 

Please ask your further questions in this thread, I may miss something in other discussions.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for answering, however you left out the heart of my post, which is where I really wanted to know your thoughts:

 

Here you said:

 

Right, human body is of material substance and is of Taiji world. When shenxian practice the last stage - 9 years facing a wall  he purifies the body completely. So the body is not being lost but being once again finally united with shenxian's yangshen.

 

Theoretically, I can "imagine" it, but I have yet to see any practitioner transform their physical tissues into primordial Qi to become emptiness, and if this is really a genuine part of the later processes of Neidan, then why haven't we seen it even though we have so many lineage holders alive today who follow the old way and why do so many Daoist texts teach us that post-natal Qi cannot be converted to pre-natal Qi?

 

Here is the heart of my question:

 

In houtian xiulian, it seems that one of the main purposes of actively maintaining and attempting to maximize ones physical lifespan is a facility employed with the understanding that the cultivation of the subtle immortal spirit (Yang Shen) to the point of sufficient maturity, can be a very lengthy task, often decorated with many failures and re-tries, therefore it would behoove one to maintain the basis for this transformation healthy as long as is necessary for the Yang spirit to mature so that it can be consciously operated.

 

Do you think that it's possible this is the purpose of all the extensive physical regiments in houtian, as opposed to turning the material body into the immaterial? Didn't Zhang Boduan say somewhere that the material cannot beget the immaterial, making a differentiation between those that cultivate the impermanent post natal essence and those that trigger the cultivation of the prenatal essence, which leads to true attainment?

 

Zhang Daoling died around 122, but today there are some people who have lived to that age also that probably have never heard of Daoism. Legend says he turned into fairy dust and leaped up into the heavens with his body disappearing, but as you know, legend says that legend says that legend says. There is no proof. 

 

If I am not mistaken Zhang Boduan also died before he even reached 100.

 

Furthermore if there are still so many authentic Daoist schools who carry on the TRUE teachings as many of them claim and have been doing so for 100s or thousands of years, then where are their masters that were never burried or their students that followed the true way of the immortals and never died? There are many Daoist schools and temples today, where can we find these guys that do not age and die like everybody else, even when they are the official representatives of their ancient lineages?

 

As a convenient example, your school (please correct me if I'm wrong) has been transmitting it's methods which it claims are true for over 500 years now? .

 

A human life is on average around 80 years, you must have had many students since then. Can we assume something like 50 students every 100 years as a safe example?

Then were looking at around 250 students practicing students.

 

Of all these people and I appreciate its a rough figure (im speculating just to vaguely illustrate my point) - Is there any evidence of anyone actually transforming their body into spiritual energy and disappearing from the face of the earth or is it that everyone of the students and masters was buried or cremated like a normal person?

 

I am not implying that they were just any typical person, I am sure that their practice achieved them results beyond what most people outside of the xianshu were likely to achieve, but never the less, spiritual cultivation is a gradual process in almost every area. Nothing really ever just suddenly manifests. Usually, there is a process before hand that builds up or leads to a manifestation. My point is that If what you're saying is true, then I wouldn't expect people to suddenly disappear, but at the same time I would expect that at least there would be a gradual transition of the physical tissues from visible to invisible and during that time their practicing brothers and sisters of the Dao would be able to observe that.

 

Wuliu Pai is not the only Daoist school that believes this idea, yet all the masters we know of that we can see and feel and that are alive or at least have records of their lives were all buried and cremated.

 

How is it so? This is the discrepancy I was speaking of, and as a practitioner of one such school who believes in this form of transformation I want to know what you think about it.

 

I personally do not know any immortal that was not buried or one that managed to transform impermanent energy of Taiji into the divine energy of the Dao. Isn't this the basis of differentiation between Post-Natal energy cultivation and Pre-Natal energy cultivation, so that people do not mislead themselves by trying to convert the body into the spirit?

 

If we can convert physical energy from Taiji into spiritual energy that can exist in Wuji, couldn't we assume that scientists would one day invent a method to achieve immortality by the use of technology or even some method to open the Xuan Guan?

 

So again I'm wondering, how is it that the physical energy is converted into spiritual energy, when one is post celestial and the other is pre-celestial?

 

Those are my questions : )

I've highlighted questions in your message with blue, please see my answers below.

 

1. Thank you. I greatly appreciate forum members' attention.

2. If we understand why people die and know what effect alchemy does to human body - then yes. It is not an ultimate goal but it is necessary to pass this stage on the way of perfection. 

3. Right, human body is of material substance and is of Taiji world. When shenxian practice the last stage - 9 years facing a wall  he purifies the body completely. So the body is not being lost but being once again finally united with shenxian's yangshen.

 

4. If you asking about giving immortality secret to anyone - it is once again a question of a kid with nuclear weapon in his/her hand. It would simply turn our world to hell immediately as every single person needs to pass through perfection process and not just gain unlimited power to become the demon.

If your question is about teaching worthy students - it happens. Wu Chongxu was about 200 years old when he was teaching Liu Huayang. There is a number of masters in Taoist history who were taught by Laozi. And so on.

 

5. This one refers to the part I highlighted with red.

Man knowing a secret of immortality in a society is like a usual man with holding bag full of gold in room fool of gangsers. That is why Taoist Patriarchs have always hidden in mountains and almost never accepted invitations from Chinese rulers.

 

Date of birth without date of death - repeatedly for lot of Taoists would draw pretty much of unwanted attention and shouldn't be considered as a wise behavior.

 

Please ask your further questions in this thread, I may miss something in other discussions.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for answering, however you left out the heart of my post, which is where I really wanted to know your thoughts:

 

Here you said:

 

Right, human body is of material substance and is of Taiji world. When shenxian practice the last stage - 9 years facing a wall  he purifies the body completely. So the body is not being lost but being once again finally united with shenxian's yangshen.

 

Theoretically, I can "imagine" it, but I have yet to see any practitioner transform their physical tissues into primordial Qi to become emptiness, and if this is really a genuine part of the later processes of Neidan, then why haven't we seen it even though we have so many lineage holders alive today who follow the old way and why do so many Daoist texts teach us that post-natal Qi cannot be converted to pre-natal Qi?

 

Here is the heart of my question:

 

In houtian xiulian, it seems that one of the main purposes of actively maintaining and attempting to maximize ones physical lifespan is a facility employed with the understanding that the cultivation of the subtle immortal spirit (Yang Shen) to the point of sufficient maturity, can be a very lengthy task, often decorated with many failures and re-tries, therefore it would behoove one to maintain the basis for this transformation healthy as long as is necessary for the Yang spirit to mature so that it can be consciously operated.

 

Do you think that it's possible this is the purpose of all the extensive physical regiments in houtian, as opposed to turning the material body into the immaterial? Didn't Zhang Boduan say somewhere that the material cannot beget the immaterial, making a differentiation between those that cultivate the impermanent post natal essence and those that trigger the cultivation of the prenatal essence, which leads to true attainment?

 

Zhang Daoling died around 122, but today there are some people who have lived to that age also that probably have never heard of Daoism. Legend says he turned into fairy dust and leaped up into the heavens with his body disappearing, but as you know, legend says that legend says that legend says. There is no proof. 

 

If I am not mistaken Zhang Boduan also died before he even reached 100.

 

Furthermore if there are still so many authentic Daoist schools who carry on the TRUE teachings as many of them claim and have been doing so for 100s or thousands of years, then where are their masters that were never burried or their students that followed the true way of the immortals and never died? There are many Daoist schools and temples today, where can we find these guys that do not age and die like everybody else, even when they are the official representatives of their ancient lineages?

 

As a convenient example, your school (please correct me if I'm wrong) has been transmitting it's methods which it claims are true for over 500 years now? .

 

A human life is on average around 80 years, you must have had many students since then. Can we assume something like 50 students every 100 years as a safe example?

Then were looking at around 250 students practicing students.

 

Of all these people and I appreciate its a rough figure (im speculating just to vaguely illustrate my point) - Is there any evidence of anyone actually transforming their body into spiritual energy and disappearing from the face of the earth or is it that everyone of the students and masters was buried or cremated like a normal person? - AND if this is so, then doesn't it imply that nobody from your school has achieved that level yet?

 

I am not implying that they were just any typical person, I am sure that their practice achieved them results beyond what most people outside of the xianshu were likely to achieve, but never the less, spiritual cultivation is a gradual process in almost every area. Nothing really ever just suddenly manifests. Usually, there is a process before hand that builds up or leads to a manifestation. My point is that If what you're saying is true, then I wouldn't expect people to suddenly disappear, but at the same time I would expect that at least there would be a gradual transition of the physical tissues from visible to invisible and during that time their practicing brothers and sisters of the Dao would be able to observe that.

 

Wuliu Pai is not the only Daoist school that believes this idea, yet all the masters we know of that we can see and feel and that are alive or at least have records of their lives were all buried and cremated.

 

How is it so? This is the discrepancy I was speaking of, and as a practitioner of one such school who believes in this form of transformation I want to know what you think about it.

 

I personally do not know any immortal that was not buried or one that managed to transform impermanent energy of Taiji into the divine energy of the Dao. Isn't this the basis of differentiation between Post-Natal energy cultivation and Pre-Natal energy cultivation, so that people do not mislead themselves by trying to convert the body into the spirit?

 

If we can convert physical energy from Taiji into spiritual energy that can exist in Wuji, couldn't we assume that scientists would one day invent a method to achieve immortality by the use of technology or even some method to open the Xuan Guan?

 

So again I'm wondering, how is it that the physical energy is converted into spiritual energy, when one is post celestial and the other is pre-celestial?

 

Those are my questions : )

Hello A.A.Khokhlov,

 

Thank you for joining the forum and sharing your ideas with us. It has been really refreshing to see a represenative of Wu Liu Pai on the Tao Bums that carries himself with respect and integrity, and I appreciate you taking your time to reply to everyone's questions in such a way as to trigger productive debates and stimulate thinking.

 

One of your posts stood out to me as It juxtaposes very contrastingly with Xiantian practice in my school. While I appreciate and understand the necessity for this approach in Houtian, how do you reconcile this with the fact that almost all masters were buried or cremated?

 

Is it necessary to escape physical death to become an immortal?

 

What is the correlation between escaping physical death and spiritual immortality?

Isn't life part of the process of cultivation itself which goes on even when immortality is being cultivated.

Why do we have to escape at all? What is there to escape from?

 

In houtian xiulian, it seems that one of the main purposes of actively maintaining and attempting to maximize ones physical lifespan is a facility employed with the understanding that the cultivation of the subtle immortal spirit (Yang Shen) to the point of sufficient maturity, can be a very lengthy task, often decorated with many failures and re-tries, therefore it would behoove one to maintain the basis for this transformation healthy as long as is necessary for the Yang spirit to mature so that it can be consciously operated.

 

Do you think that it's possible this is the purpose of all the extensive physical regiments in houtian, as opposed to turning the material body into the immaterial? Didn't Zhang Boduan say somewhere that the material cannot beget the immaterial, making a differentiation between those that cultivate the impermanent post natal essence and those that trigger the cultivation of the prenatal essence, which leads to true attainment?

 

In my experience physical matter born from Taichi, governed by the laws of Yin and Yang itself; such as a human beings that are formed of the 5 elements, cannot pass through the Xuan Guan and enter Wuji. Even the highest post natal energy of Shen in the human body cannot pass through Xuan Guan, which is why we must detach from the 5 thieves. Only the immaterial spirits residing in/out of the body can do this - OR, do you maintain that the physical mass and tissues of the body are transformed into immortalized spiritual essence that merge with our developing Yang Shen, the essence of which both come together to form one being?

 

Again if this is the standard for transformation in spiritual Daoism, then how come so many of the old masters were buried and cremated?

 

Even if we look at Daoist schools today. Whose school had Benjamin Button for a master and if they could live without aging or sickness, why didn't they simply continue to teach to benefit humanity?

 

Most immortals spend a vast majority of their time (they are beyond spacetime) in helping other beings and humans. Why throw away the convenience of a life born on earth, where the body has been cultivated to a state where it cannot die or age or feel sickness, and they have spiritual powers and continue to use it to help people, rather than to abandon a young and vibrant body of 90 years of age, exit Taichi, enter Wuji and then proceed to guide people from that dimension where even vibrating down from the absolute to enter the relative realm on Earth burns off Gong De?

It seems like a ridiculously inefficient decision from someone who at that level should be incredibly wise and filled with a desire to help other beings awaken, as is evidenced by the activity of immortals. What better place to do it that on earth? The human condition is perfect for it. Yet, somehow we see quite the opposite with most of masters dying quite early.

 

Zhang Daoling died around 122, but today there are some people who have lived to that age also that probably have never heard of Daoism. Legend says he turned into fairy dust and leaped up into the heavens with his body disappearing, but as you know, legend says that legend says that legend says. There is no proof. 

 

If I am not mistaken Zhang Boduan also died before he even reached 100.

 

Furthermore if there are still so many authentic Daoist schools who carry on the TRUE teachings as many of them claim and have been doing so for 100s or thousands of years, then where are their masters that were never burried or their students that followed the true way of the immortals and never died? There are many Daoist schools and temples today, where can we find these guys that do not age and die like everybody else, even when they are the official representatives of their ancient lineages?

 

I'd love to know what you think of these discrepancies between cultivating the material body as a means of reaching the spirit vs cultivating the spirit directly and allowing the physical body to die in Taiji and return to the earth following nature.

 

In my tradition we focus almost fully on the cultivation of the immaterial spirit, because in our experience this is the only type of energy that can penetrate into Wuji and is suitable to form a whole with our awareness, so that  both can exist as one vehicle: Awareness + Spiritual Body. Having said that, we also we also practice charity, live in society so we can develop our intellect and basic wisdom and perform humanitarian activities and contribute to society to help the lives of others.

 

I'm curious to know what you think.

 

Hi Mr. Khokhlov,

 

I know that there's been a lot of posts flying left and right, so you might have missed this one.

I'm just re-posting it here, because I'm genuinely curious about your thoughts on the matter.

 

Do you think you'll have time to answer it in the near future?

Thank you in advance : )

If you won't meet a guidance from true teacher - all of it are stupid actions.

 

Hmmm..

 

How can the ignorant student incapable of effectively vetting his master due to his own lack of practical experience, truly recognize a true teacher from a false teacher, especially if the teacher is incapable of providing immediate evidence of the results which are being sought?

 

Is to trust such a teacher not a stupid action of itself or are we reduced to the option of blind faith vs wisdom and common sense in these scenarios?

 

In houtian xiulian, one human master practicing immortality is teaching another human student practicing immortality.

 

How can the master teach that which he has yet to fully accomplish himself?

It seems that he would only be able to take the student as far as his own achievements, before having to revert again to the uncertainty of books.

 

If a school is teaching immortality, then there must be at least one immortal in the school and by your definition this is someone who gets young instead of old, has escaped death and sickness. Where can we find this person in each Daoist school today and why are they not a little more popular, because if there isn't at least one immortal in each Daoist school, then it means that to some extent everyone is chasing the other persons tail and the dog in front actually has no personal experience of the final state.

 

What happens in such a case?

 

Can we speculate that there are other reservoirs of instruction and guidance that one can tap into to in order to continue their cultivation after such a stage and if yes, then in what shape or form do you think they are represented, since books cannot be relied on fully?

 

Do you believe that it is impossible for one to learn to cultivate their spirit on their own? Surely at some point in humanity there must have been a time when nobody had yet begun spiritual cultivation, then suddenly someone was triggered to pursue it. Did they not learn on their own or did an immortal come down to teach the first human? Because it begs the question, where did the teacher of the first person to practice spiritual cultivation come from?

 

Must there always be a transferred method or is it possible to attain samadhi, reside in emptiness and have the primordial Qi of the Dao transform our spirit automatically through wu wei?

 

Slightly unrelated but three nice texts come to mind:

 

---------------------------------------------

"When the nine-year practice is concluded, in its non-doing, one’s Nature is of its own perfect, and in its formlessness, one’s Spirit is of its own wondrous. When Spirit is wondrous, its transformations are inexhaustible, and its states of manifestation and non-manifestation are unfathomable. When Nature is perfect, its wisdom illuminates all directions, and in its being numinous and pervasive, it can suffer no damage. Therefore one can can divide one’s being into a myriad beings that manifest themselves in limitless ways, while one’s own body of utmost reality dwells in the realm of utmost quiescence, silent and ceaselessly abiding in non-doing. This is because one’s Nature, one’s Spirit, one’s form, and one’s existence are joined in their reality with the reality of the Dao."

---------------------------------------------

"What should we expect?

Should we really think it curious to never have known an immortal? At a hundred paces the eyes do not see everything clearly, so we decide to see certain things as existent and others as nonexistent. Surely because of our ignorant discriminations there will be many things in the world we will decide do not exist. This is like saying,

" The ocean is no deeper than the depth I can measure with my finger. "

---------------------------------------------

Unborn and imperishable Is the original mind

Earth, water, fire and wind

A temporary lodging for the night

Attached to this ephemeral burning house

You yourselves light the fire, kindle the flames

In which you're consumed..

---------------------------------------------

First person is getting born, then becoming adult, becoming old, getting illnesses and finally dies. None of above is a subject of change except the case person is practicing Real Dao - from old getting young, from sick getting healthy, escaping from death and becoming an immortal.

 

Hello A.A.Khokhlov,

 

Thank you for joining the forum and sharing your ideas with us. It has been really refreshing to see a represenative of Wu Liu Pai on the Tao Bums that carries himself with respect and integrity, and I appreciate you taking your time to reply to everyone's questions in such a way as to trigger productive debates and stimulate thinking.

 

One of your posts stood out to me as It juxtaposes very contrastingly with Xiantian practice in my school. While I appreciate and understand the necessity for this approach in Houtian, how do you reconcile this with the fact that almost all masters were buried or cremated?

 

Is it necessary to escape physical death to become an immortal?

 

What is the correlation between escaping physical death and spiritual immortality?

Isn't life part of the process of cultivation itself which goes on even when immortality is being cultivated.

Why do we have to escape at all? What is there to escape from?

 

In houtian xiulian, it seems that one of the main purposes of actively maintaining and attempting to maximize ones physical lifespan is a facility employed with the understanding that the cultivation of the subtle immortal spirit (Yang Shen) to the point of sufficient maturity, can be a very lengthy task, often decorated with many failures and re-tries, therefore it would behoove one to maintain the basis for this transformation healthy as long as is necessary for the Yang spirit to mature so that it can be consciously operated.

 

Do you think that it's possible this is the purpose of all the extensive physical regiments in houtian, as opposed to turning the material body into the immaterial? Didn't Zhang Boduan say somewhere that the material cannot beget the immaterial, making a differentiation between those that cultivate the impermanent post natal essence and those that trigger the cultivation of the prenatal essence, which leads to true attainment?

 

In my experience physical matter born from Taichi, governed by the laws of Yin and Yang itself; such as a human beings that are formed of the 5 elements, cannot pass through the Xuan Guan and enter Wuji. Even the highest post natal energy of Shen in the human body cannot pass through Xuan Guan, which is why we must detach from the 5 thieves. Only the immaterial spirits residing in/out of the body can do this - OR, do you maintain that the physical mass and tissues of the body are transformed into immortalized spiritual essence that merge with our developing Yang Shen, the essence of which both come together to form one being?

 

Again if this is the standard for transformation in spiritual Daoism, then how come so many of the old masters were buried and cremated?

 

Even if we look at Daoist schools today. Whose school had Benjamin Button for a master and if they could live without aging or sickness, why didn't they simply continue to teach to benefit humanity?

 

Most immortals spend a vast majority of their time (they are beyond spacetime) in helping other beings and humans. Why throw away the convenience of a life born on earth, where the body has been cultivated to a state where it cannot die or age or feel sickness, and they have spiritual powers and continue to use it to help people, rather than to abandon a young and vibrant body of 90 years of age, exit Taichi, enter Wuji and then proceed to guide people from that dimension where even vibrating down from the absolute to enter the relative realm on Earth burns off Gong De?

It seems like a ridiculously inefficient decision from someone who at that level should be incredibly wise and filled with a desire to help other beings awaken, as is evidenced by the activity of immortals. What better place to do it that on earth? The human condition is perfect for it. Yet, somehow we see quite the opposite with most of masters dying quite early.

 

Zhang Daoling died around 122, but today there are some people who have lived to that age also that probably have never heard of Daoism. Legend says he turned into fairy dust and leaped up into the heavens with his body disappearing, but as you know, legend says that legend says that legend says. There is no proof. 

 

If I am not mistaken Zhang Boduan also died before he even reached 100.

 

Furthermore if there are still so many authentic Daoist schools who carry on the TRUE teachings as many of them claim and have been doing so for 100s or thousands of years, then where are their masters that were never burried or their students that followed the true way of the immortals and never died? There are many Daoist schools and temples today, where can we find these guys that do not age and die like everybody else, even when they are the official representatives of their ancient lineages?

 

I'd love to know what you think of these discrepancies between cultivating the material body as a means of reaching the spirit vs cultivating the spirit directly and allowing the physical body to die in Taiji and return to the earth following nature.

 

In my tradition we focus almost fully on the cultivation of the immaterial spirit, because in our experience this is the only type of energy that can penetrate into Wuji and is suitable to form a whole with our awareness, so that  both can exist as one vehicle: Awareness + Spiritual Body. Having said that, we also we also practice charity, live in society so we can develop our intellect and basic wisdom and perform humanitarian activities and contribute to society to help the lives of others.

 

I'm curious to know what you think.

Just set up an appointment, you can find their email on their website. You can say that you are investigating Xiao Yao Pai and our Shifu, Li Shang Hu, then just ask them if it's OK to see the official list of China's Daoist clans. Have a nice trip.

 

Your senior A.A.K. said that he was going to check us out. I'd like to invite him to our next initiation so he can investigate us in person, free of charge. If he is a the level to communicate with the divine realm, I'm more than happy to introduce him directly to my Hu Fa Shen, so they can speak together. Either way it would be nice to meet him.

 

He conveys himself with dignity and respect in his posts, so I can see why you are his junior, as you severely lack that conduct in your communication. Its nice to see a more refined representation of your school on the forum.

Effliang, very scholarly and alot to digest.  Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed account of your system.  

 

Much obliged.

Effilang, your really lengthy posts cannot be compared to very laconic books of real Teachers... 

 

Thank you.

 

People can watch side by side your videos and numerous spontaneous qigong videos on youtube and ask, if they see any difference. 

 

Your perception here is very shallow.

 

It's very easy to trigger spontaneous Qigong, one just needs to reach a very high level of relaxation, then the body will automatically begin to correct itself to match its original blueprint.

 

If I have a physical condition that needs my hand to move one way 50 times to alleviate the issue, the movement may be similar in both Spontaneous Qigong and Guided Shen Gong in our school, because the anatomy of the human body is the same in both cases. The difference however is that one movement is triggered by our Hu Fa Shen, while the other by their body, although Hu Fa Shen might decide to employ a different method all together. It really depends on them and the state of your body.

 

To make it clear since you're having a hard time understanding this it seems; we connect to another conscious being (Shen Xian or Tian Xian) to receive instructions, while spontaneous Qigong practitioners simply follow the impulse of their own body.

 

Can you differentiate between a Daoist Shen Xian and someone's own body?

Of course you can't "see" the difference in a video, why would you? - LMAO

 

Yangshen is not a subtle body, and it breaks apart all the long philosophy and argumentation.

 

Again, you're demonstrating your lack of experience with these states. Actually Yang Shen can vibrate on all levels between Wuji and Taiji, so yes it can also be a subtle body at the level of physical (Taiji) Qi. You are just a little tunnel visioned because you are looking at it from a limited perspective, or you clearly wouldn't say these things.

 

We also call the subtle body the complex of the physical Taiji energy that flows through the electromagnetic channel system of the body, but this is physical energy so it will disperse together with the body when it dies. It cannot transcend Taiji, so it is not a focus of spiritual cultivation in our school and does not equate to Yang Shen, however Yang Shen can tune down enough to manifest at this level - which is how Hu Fa Shen guides us during Xiantian Qigong, during which he or she controls our breathing.

 

The word "subtle" just means that something is difficult to describe. You can check the dictionary for that, and believe me Yang Shen is difficult to describe....

 

 

Your mind Is trapped in philosophical terminology....

 

I'm sure you know all this and probably know I know it too, but you're just making really lame attempts now at trying to contradict me, because you've run out of ammunition and it seems all you like to do is shoot.

 

Oh well : )

 

Here, have some hearts   - Don't be so bitter.

effilang, when in your school at least one student becomes a Xian with Yangshen abilities, we will continue this very respectful conversation.

 

In that case I am waiting for you to continue, but before you do I just want to point out that your above sentence illustrates to me your inexperience with this level of practice.

 

Here is what I mean:

 

A Xian is not something you just become suddenly after some level of practice. It's not an on and off switch and both Yin Shen and Yang Shen skills are cultivated gradually as one progresses; with some of these abilities being triggered during the first day of initiation in our tradition.

 

Every Dao Yu in our school that practices Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu is actively developing their Yang Shen. I will not go into detail about it now, because I'm actually creating some illustrations in the background accompanied by explanations about all this and will be posting them sometime next week, as I am on holiday then and will have time to finish them up. You're more than welcome to have a look if you're curious. They will clarify most of this in much more detail. A picture is worth a thousand words they say : )

 

Furthermore, every single Hu Fa Shen in our school that has been authorized by our celestial head; Tai Shang Lao Jun, is either a Shen Xian or a Tian Xian and so Yang Shen. This is why our initiation during which our master makes a request to Tai Shang whom assigns a Hu Fa Shen to each new apprentice; is our empirical evidence, because each person directly has their Yuan Shen triggered and hey can begin to see, hear, feel, smell and physically interact with their newly assigned teacher. I'm not talking about subjective communication here. We can actually sit and have a conversation with our Hu Fa Shen and ask questions, advice, and receive information which we otherwise do not know on our own. This is also why we can learn more physical arts through Hu Fa Shen, like Martial Arts and why they can guide our body to move, because they can vibrate down to the physical level from Wuji. Every time they guide us, they must also "tune" down their energy so that it can interact with the physical energy in Taiji.

 

Because our Hu Fa Shen are Yang Shen, we do not need to enter a trance for them to connect to us. This is very important, because we do not support or encourage trance systems. One's awareness should always be growing and expanding with your wisdom always developing. You should never practice anything that reduces your consciousness.

 

Here is the definition of a trance:

 

noun

 

Trance systems lower the awareness and suppress the consciousness of the individual in order to reduce the frequency of their Shen so that it can match that of the possessing spirit. That is why those that practice shamanism always talk about being possessed, but in our school the word possession has a negative connotation.

 

Here is an example of someone entering a trance in a tradition of Daoism, so that the Monkey God can connect to them:

 

Daoist Shamanic Trance Practice 1

Daoist Shamanic Trance Practice 2

 

Just watch how they lose their intelligence and humanity and begin to move like a crazy person.

This can never happen if you connect to a Yang Shen spirit. You will always be lucid, aware and in control and further more a Shen Xian would never require all that ceremony...

 

If someone's Shen is strong and their consciousness is vibrant, a spirit cannot possess or connect to you, because they can't even synchronize to the vibration of a healthy human Shen, so if you must enter a trance and reduce your awareness, it is so that you can make space for the possessing spirit's awareness to enter our body.

 

This is one way to know the quality of the spirit you are connecting to on a very basic level; whether you must enter a half conscious state or whether you can stay completely conscious, aware and able to employ your wisdom and all your beings faculties, physical and spiritual.

 

This is also another reason why it is possible to become susceptible to possession by a spirit if we are shocked, heart-broken, depressed, horrified and terrified. Any condition that severely lowers the vibration of spirit and makes it weak.

 

When our Hu Fa Shen connect to us, we always stay in a completely aware state and our wisdom is always expanding. Their consciousness is far above ours in frequency, so when HFS connect to us, it's them that actually have to lower their vibration to synchronize with us, but its never really on our level so much, they tend to stay just ahead, so that we are always guided to follow them deeper into the Dao and deeper into Wuji. They can connect to us anytime and anywhere on request on the post natal Shen, Jing and Qi level or on the prenatal Shen, Jing and Qi level. They can be seen, heard and felt. None of this is anything fantastical in our school. This is our basic practice that we follow every day when we cultivate. If I posted all the testimonials here from our students, people would think I am writing a fantasy novel.

 

Those who did not cultivate Yang Shen cannot penetrate deeper into the Dao after their physical body dies, because they did not develop their subtle body (Yang Shen) which is the spiritual vehicle, but only their awareness and wisdom. That's why I often talk about fusing the awareness to the Yang Shen to produce the one unit of being which is fully conscious, but also able to exist in the spiritual realm beyond Taiji. The Yang Shen takes time to develop and refine from Hun Shen.

 

There are some basic states:

 

1. Awareness + Physical Body = Conscious Human

2. Awareness + Yang Shen = Conscious Shen Xian

3. Awareness + Yin Shen = Conscious Gui Xian

 

If we are 1, our physical body will die and we will reincarnate. While we are alive the physical body supports the awareness, but because the physical body is a product of the 5 elements and Taiji, it is impermanent and material and thus cannot itself escape the Taiji realm. All things born of Taiji are born, die, decay and are reborn. This condition is cyclic and we will continue to be this way until our wisdom expands beyond material things and we begin to pursue the spiritual. Usually it's around this time that people start to find meditation and start looking for a school or a master as they start to understand there is more to us than just the physical dimension; so they search for a way to connect to that aspect of our being and maybe to develop it with a good method; maybe with your school, maybe with mine. Whatever gives good results.

 

If we are 2, we have begun to develop our spiritual body (Yang Shen) and we have began to fuse our awareness to it, together with all of our being. Everything reverts back to one. Ni and Xiantian Bagua vs Shu and Houtian Bagua.

 

After we have connected or transferred enough of our awareness into the developing Yang Shen, we can begin to infuse it with our own basic will and volition and intellect, all the while also connecting to our own former lifetime information and skill, in addition to cultivating the abilities being born through the maturation of our Yang Shen. That is why they call it a "spiritual birth", because when the Xiao Shen becomes conscious; that is the birth of our awareness within the Yang Shen inside Wuji, and we are delivered from Taiji into Wuji for the first time in our own spiritual body, a body that can sustain our awareness in the spiritual realm (Wuji). The physical body can never achieve it. This is why when Jesus was asked what does it mean to be born again, he answered; to be born into the kingdom of heaven (Wuji), but not in a body of flesh, but a body of the holy spirit (the spirit that is whole: spirit body + awareness). Actually the bible has a lot of references to spiritual cultivation as do many other religions, but they fly way over the head of most people and many of them have been distorted over time. 

 

When our Xiao Shen is born into Wuji for the first time it is just a baby. That is why in some books like Daoist Yoga; their traditions recommend to quickly retract it back into the body, because it is dull (not all the awareness has been fused to it so it lacks basic intellect and reasoning and is naive like a baby and susceptible to attack).

 

In Xiao Yao Pai, we don't worry about retracting our Xiao Shen after it enters Wuji for the first time, because since initiation we are wrapped with our schools divine energy and it has an apotropaic property. In addition to that, Hu Fa Shen is always there to protect us. So we are free to reside in this transformative state and continue to absorb primordial Qi into our Xiao Shen to strengthen its subtle body while we condense more and more into one solid unit. The farther along this process of fusion we go, the more intelligent our Xiao Shen becomes; then our awareness can easily shift between our Yang Shen body and our human spirit, so that we can act in both dimensions consciously.

 

Without developing the Xiao Shen and the Yang Shen, our awareness has nothing to house it in the spiritual realm, so we must reincarnate and try again to find a method to develop the Yang Shen. It requires both wisdom and energy cultivation.

 

If we only develop power, after we die we cannot go deeper into the Dao, we will be forced to reincarnate again sooner or later if we want to try once more to do it fully. Wisdom, Clarity, Gong De and our Subtle Energy Body (Yang Shen) are what determine how deep we can continue to go into the Dao. They must be developed together.

 

I know some Yang Shen spirits that connect to me outside of our school, and their explanation for he connection is that they say they are very strict in character so experiencing my humorous and playful side actually helps them to refine other aspects of their own personality, by observing and feeling how I react to situations in my own life that they did not have the opportunity to experience in theirs.

 

Most people think that Xian are perfect, they are not. Their spiritual Yang Shen body is perfect and yes, they have refined the Yin personality traits such as jealousy, anger, anxiety to their Yang counterparts, but their personality is NOT perfect; the Dao is infinite. They continue to refine and refine. All Daoist Shen Xian preserve a full sensitivity and emotional range. They can cry and also feel love and compassion. You will never find one that cannot feel. Only in the fantasy books.

 

What would be the point of attaining perfection if you were void of feelings? : )

 

Because they are imperfect in this aspect is one reason why they apply to be Hu Fa Shen after they enter Wuji, so they can continue to teach and experience challenges to help them refine themselves even further.

 

While our Hu Fa Shen can perceive the future, the future is relative and always changing. Each Dao Yu is an independent human being with free will. They can change the future at anytime by changing their mind about something, so Hu Fa Shen although knowing what needs to be done through divine wisdom, has to deal with our mind that does not always perceive things on the same level of knowing. So that discrepancy between the Hu Fa Shen and the Dao Yu serves as a challenge to the HFS through which they can refine their personality further and also accumulate Gong De.

 

Every Yang Shen has their own personality and they continue to refine themselves long after their spiritual birth into Wuji. That's why we have many different immortals whom have varying status, authority and power and they all have their personalities. Some very funny, others very strict. Some people think that all immortals have the same demeanor, look on their faces and attitude, but it could not be further from the truth.

 

Usually the life in which they finally gave birth to their Xiao Yang Shen for the first time, and the respective awareness they carried over is how they chose to present themselves consciously.

 

Death is just a continuation of life.

 

So, we must develop our spiritual body to house our awareness in the spiritual realm, otherwise when we die, our awareness has no VEHICLE of its own to move where it wants to go, it will just get sucked back into Taiji ad infinitum. 

 

In Taiji to express ourselves and create, we must use our physical body.

In Wuji to express ourselves and create, we must use our spiritual body (Yang Shen), but we must develop it before we die.

 

If we are 3, then we develop our awareness and some basic subtle body, but because we neglect our wisdom development, we cannot transform further into Yang Shen, because the law of Wuji does not give power to the unwise and the irresponsible.

 

So what happens in this case is when the physical body dies, the awareness has been transferred to an incomplete Yin Shen subtle body. The transfer or fusion is enough in this case to house our awareness in the spiritual realm so that after we die we can actually exercise our volition and voluntarily detach from the automatic reincarnative current of the Taiji law.

 

We can roam about and explore in this state, but we are limited by the quality of our consciousness so we cannot experience the deeper parts of the Dao.

 

To go deeper into the Dao you have to have a pass. The pass for a spirit is the quality of their consciousness and wisdom. So if you have a Level 1 pass because you focused only on developing power and subtle energy, then you will get Level 1 access to the spiritual realms. That is why shamanic systems are not the way, because we must lower our awareness to connect in a trance state instead of raising it higher and higher and increasing the authority of our "pass" in the spiritual realm.

 

IF someone finds themselves in this way, their only option is eventually to of their own accord re-enter Taiji again through the womb of a pregnant mother and begin the life of a human to try and attain Yang Shen. They must work hard to develop their wisdom and refine their acquired Houtian qualities from Yin to Yang.

 

Xiu Xin Yang Xing.

 

So far it has no sense, because you even don't know what I'm talking about... You don't read texts, don't learn in any alchemy school, so how you can know, really?

 

Common man, why do you have to say such silly things. Of course I read, but the emphasis on reading is very different in our tradition, because we understand that we cannot know the Dao through a book. 

 

What is a book? It is someone's personal experiences on a piece of paper.

No matter how much I read about their experiences, It cannot produce my own experiences, just like I cannot experience someones life by reading their diary.

 

We appreciate and recognize the wisdom in texts when we see it, but even when we look at our celestial heads teachings in the Dao De Jing; we take it as his own opinion. Until we verify it ourselves through personal experience, we do not take it as a fact. We do not support any type of belief systems. I've said it before, In Xiao Yao Pai, when one practices well, they should be able to write their own Dao De Jing, but first we must accumulate those experiences and wisdoms ourselves.

 

A book about swimming cannot compare with the experience of taking your clothes off and jumping in the sea, no matter how many people's swimming books you read, no matter how old the book is.

 

So in our school we focus on only what we can experience. That is why I often ask you about evidence, because this is how to prove something, but you always refer me to texts. Anybody can do it. 

 

I've always been upfront with everyone. If they doubt what I say and are looking for a path to follow, they are welcome to attend one of our initiations, where they can experience Yang Shen through a direct connection.

 

If they already have a path they are following, but simply want to come and test to verify if its true, again; they are welcome to attend an initiation where they can get empirical proof about our claims. There is nothing binding and there are no strings attached. It's between you and Tai Shang and anybody can terminate the apprenticeship thereafter if they wish to.

 

Black and White. No bullshit.

 

 

Texts are important because they were written by people who achieved that goals. Some of those people can be met. Some of them teach. How to search, I told. 

 

I don't think I've ever said they are not important, but only stressed how important. Again how one determines the importance of texts will directly correlate to the facilities they have available in their tradition for receiving teaching. In Houtian systems this is usually another human and/or texts and books.

 

In our school while we appreciate that they were "sometimes" written by those that achieved some goals, we receive our transmission directly from the respective Shen and not through their literature. This is the benefit of Xiantian Dao Yin Shu.

 

So I hope it makes more sense now why we don't focus on books as much as Houtian schools, our source of education is from the Xian directly.

 

However, please don't tell me to go search a book for someones else's achievements when I ask you to provide evidence of yours. It's an embarrassingly weak argument and I feel like you can probably do better, going by the confidence you demonstrate in your pronouncements, but again, I can only speculate to this capacity. You know the truth in your heart.

 

 

I said physical Immortality and miracles of Yangshen are possible and anybody can obtain such proofs, and such results for themselves. I got such proofs for myself and shared my own experience a bit. And it's much further then to just read texts, you're inattentive here or biased intentionally...

 

Anybody can obtain such proofs? Where? After how many years?

 

We have a short life, people don't want to practice a system for most of their life to produce proof. Why?

So that after 50 years you can decide if to continue practicing or die having wasted your life?

 

You have to be able to give people the proof NOW on the day, so that they can decide there and there whether to continue with the method or not. One system of spiritual alchemy will take you all your life to master, you can't jump around from one to the other just getting the tips of your toes wet every time. You will never achieve anything. A jack of all trades is a master of none.

 

If a person follows a spiritual system to the end, I don't think they will have time in their life to even test more than one system before they die. So... we must give people the proof on day one. That is why we cultivate, not just for ourselves, but for others. So that we can prove to other's that its real and help them on their way.

 

That is our philosophy, not to waste peoples time. Just black and white. See the evidence, feel it, heart it, know it and then decide if you want to continue studying under your Hu Fa Shen or not.

 

Anybody who calls themselves a senior or a master that cannot offer his type of immediate evidence to a potential candidate, but tells them to practice for 20 years or read some books, in my opinion simply doesn't have any evidence to offer himself, in which case, steer clear.

 

Life is short, look elsewhere for proof. Many schools and masters can offer it, but not all can. Some will enroll you into a program and make you pay them money over and over while you practice what they claim takes a long time to achieve. Its a very convenient business model. If you get one naive student every now and then you can live the rest of your life with a fat bank account. I don't know if your school is like that, but I know others that are.

 

 

You cannot imagine that people can already have own direct experiences with various kind of spirits: own Shen, Yangshen, Yinshen of other persons, demons-Mo, Xian and so on. If people have never even heard about something like this before then your school can probably be surprising. But for those who is looking for Yangshen... all you can offer is a lengthy post that old books are crap because they don't mention your school approach. Which says enough on its own. 

 

So far it has no sense, because you even don't know what I'm talking about... You don't read texts, don't learn in any alchemy school, so how you can know, really?

 

No, I cannot imagine it, because I don't have to. It's part of my daily life and the same goes for the rest of our Dao Yu who practice daily with their Hu Fa Shen.

 

You keep bashing me for my lengthy posts, but keep referring us to lengthy books.

The inconsistency only serves to demonstrate your personal bias against me.

 

And for the record, I've never said that old books are crap because they do not mention our schools approach, wow; common man. Don't stoop so low as to fabricate stuff.

 

You obviously have never really read any of my posts, because I very regularly state that the cornerstone of our school and what differentiates us from Houtian and defines us as Xiantian, is our ability to directly accommodate those looking to connect to a Shen Xian from our school to guide them... I honestly don't know what hat you're pulling this stuff out from, Opendao.

 

Our initiation is for the very purpose of activating a disciples Yuan Shen, inheriting The Divine Guidance Art (Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu), registering them in the celestial register, assigning an authorized Hu Fa Shen (Yang Shen) to guide them and commencing their apprenticeship as a formal student of Tai Shang Lao Jun... What did you think we do, offer cookies, milk and dance in circles, lol?

 

I've never actually attacked your school about anything. I've only just asked you for proof, but you on the other hand love to jump to wild conclusions. Me? I can't say anything about your school, because I do not have personal experience with it. It's that simple. 1 + 1, but that doesn't mean I can't ask you to prove it; and so far you've offered no method to support that you or anyone else has actually achieved the results you keep saying are in someone else's books, whom you've probably never even met yourself or are even sure they existed, because they are dead.

 

Don't take things so personally. If you put yourself out in public and make claims about things, it's only a matter of time before someone asks you to prove it. It's part of being a public figure. If you can't offer any evidence outside of someone else's experiences, it's fine. It's not a big deal.

 

I just don't accept evidence as, check this book, because I'm interested in seeing whether your interpretation of THAT book is accurate enough to produce results that you can demonstrate.

 

In our school we claim to learn directly from the Shen and Tian Xian, and we can prove it by connecting a person to one during initiation so they can have the experience of communicating and learning from one directly. No merry go rounds.....

Heaven mandate is not religious thing, you getting into extremes. It's clear experience like those you have in neidan when you getting in contact with Xians into spiritual form. Those things which we speaks we are speaking (or I'm speaking) straight from measure experiences which anybody can repeat probably the same like you but from different context, the problem is that you think your or the experiences you know are only right but how can you know without practicing in others schools? Did you practice XYP? Did you practice Longmen Pai? Zhen Dao? and others? I do not think, there are many schools which works efficiently. There are even buddhist ming methods in japan but you school things that buddhist lost their ming (which is mostly right). Did you practice or did research or other lineages? did you practices in others streams before?

 

you are inattentive. I said clearly what and how to check, and it has no relation " getting in contact with Xians into spiritual form".

 

And I insist that all subjective experiences, visions, encounters with Buddhas - just blind beliefs and hallucinations if there are no alchemy results.

 

Heavenly mandate cannot be checked by a regular person. So it's a religious belief.

 

Texts, material evidences, some alchemy results of other people - that's possible to check by a regular person.

 

This is the difference you don't want to grasp.

 

Alchemy is not for believers and gossips collectors.

 

sick logic. Not all qigoners do that. But they are all dead when it's time to die. If you don't know how real Hevenly circle extends life, how you can know how qigoners do their life shorter? Then listen those who know and desperately try to understand why, showing that you have no idea about Neidan's practice.

 

To an atheist, the idea of Immortal Spirits or even spirits of any kind, is also a "religious" thing - and to the Daoist practitioner who cannot connect to the divine realm to communicate with the immortals, this too is just fantasy.

 

OpenDao has a toxic habit of shaping the world according to his own achievements and promptly rejecting anyone who claims he has experienced things beyond this own experiences. That's also why everyone tries to "kick" him from their threads, because he is like the summer fly that rejects the idea of winter or the fish in the well that denies the grandness of the ocean. It's the sickness of always wanting to be greater than others; nothing but a fools errand.

 

I know immortals that are 10s of thousands years old and others that go back to numbers I do not even know how to express, but no, it's all fake, because OpenDao can't do it : )

 

Evidently, he also claims heavenly mandate cannot be verified, again, because he lacks the ability and wisdom to do so himself - therefore, nobody else is possibly more capable than him, so it must be rejected.

 

There are plenty of "regular" people that can check it.

If your system is all that you say it is, then your master should be able to check it also, but then again, you have shown that your are incapable of offering any evidence borne of your own school as you have demonstrated on many occasions by avoiding direct requests for such proof.

 

You are without a doubt the best SU27 pilot I have seen : )

 

All anyone has to do is paint a missile with the letters "PROOF?", lock onto you and fire - and you will deploy the latest in evasive technology to perform acrobatic miracles in the sky like never before seen. It's pretty obvious that all you can do is talk or you would have offered anyone who is curious about the validity of your practice some empirical evidence by now, but you resort to the role of a conversational ballerina.

 

Those that cannot prove their system works or have a method to verify their claims that can be experienced by anyone else, will of course naturally place anyone who can and anything they cannot explain in a category which is convenient for them to ridicule, but it only demonstrates their lack of experience and their inability to penetrate into the the deeper parts of the Dao.

 

In our school, after we connect one to the immortals, even the hardcore atheists come to know that what we say is true. That's is the nature of empirical evidence. It's impossible to deny the presence of an immortal, just like it is impossible to deny the presence of another person standing in front of you, and that's why we're successful with working even with people from the scientific community, because we do not "talk", we "walk". We do not tell people to check this or that book, we show them right there and then in a way which is undeniable, even to the strongest unbeliever. They can reject it, but they cannot deny it : )

 

We are not the only school who can do it, but not all schools can do it.

It's really very simple. When you make a claim about something, you have to be able to prove it. Talk is cheap.

 

The texts and material evidences that you keep referring people to, which have nothing to do with the results of your own practice or school, because they were written by someone else about their own personal experience, are just excuses for your lack of evidence.

 

And just look at how adamant you are in saying; You CANNOT do it. It CANNOT be done.

 

Well, as the old saying goes...

 

He who claims it cannot be done, should get the hell out of the way of the one that is already doing it.

 

You're absolutely right when you say that Alchemy is not for believers and gossip collectors. - and that's why you have no way to prove your words to others beyond your power to tell people which book to read to give evidence of what you yourself have likely not achieved.

 

And the only reason I am saying this with confidence right now, is because by saying that certain things CANNOT be done, which CAN and ARE being done, it has fully demonstrated to me just how little you have actually accomplished - but again, it makes sense now, because you can't show any proof can you, OpenDao?

ha ha. Lady, learn how to prove your words first.....

 

Oh the IRONY!

In other words:

You invite people who are not interested in your system to pay the fee for your seminar and to attend it?

So your alleged intention "to convince" people who are not interested in your system is actually your intention to make money from them?

Is that correct?

 

haha, biased much?

 

Why would anyone go somewhere or do something they are not interested in?

Free will still exists right?

 

I don't have any "alleged" intentions. You might want to check the meaning of the word.

People have posted more than enough testimonials post-initiation to confirm my claims, so it's not something that is unproven. It's already a fact...

 

And for this very special brand of people to whom I extend private invitations, there is nothing to pay. They can come for free. My payment is the look on their faces when they know it's true. What they do with the shift in their reality afterwards is up to them : )

no, it's just you who cannot read and know nothing about Neidan close door teaching. 

The method of Wu-Liu Pai is not in the books.

 

Hehe, it's a little funny though you have to admit, OpenDao.

 

At first when people asked you about evidence, you said, go and read the texts; the evidence is spoken about in the texts. Now that people have started to point out the mistakes in the text, you conveniently back pedal and say it's not in the texts anymore. 

effi, opinions of primitive evangelist without any alchemy results are very important for me, but keep posting in your school thread, where you can be a god and delete any questions you have no answers. You love word games, but I'm not.

 

I've never deleted people's questions and always answered them. No need to make stuff up. We're all grown ups here. I've only deleted destructive and venomous posts. That's all : )

 

Let's be fair though, you're calling me out for "word games", when you yourself are the master of the art.

I have yet to see you offer anyone a demonstration of any results which you always claim are there.

 

Anytime anyone asks you to put your money where your mouth is and back up what you claim; your well rehearsed reaction is always to deploy chaffs and employ evasive manoeuvres; skillfully pirouetting around the question like a professional ballerina.

 

I'm not even mad, It's impressive every time you do it 

I always look forward to how you will do it next. Honestly, I'm not even mocking you. I'm impressed.

 

Unlike most people on the Dao Bums, I actually have nothing against what most people claim on here, no matter what the school is. I've experienced enough to know that most people barely scratch the surface of what is actually possible anyway.

 

The only thing that I find unpalatable is when a School (any school) claims to teach something, but can never provide any proof of it when asked, but always have some very good excuse.

 

It's really not that hard if the school is genuine - and it's nothing personal really, when you want to go and learn from someone, you need to test them to see if they have actually achieved the things they teach.

 

I'm not just talking about theory either, theory.. anyone can read and memorise, but any school that claims they are genuine, should be able to demonstrate it in practice when asked. Sure this is not a circus and we're not jumping through hoops to please the audience, and I too often decline the requests, but this is 2016; its no longer good enough to hide behind the guise of mysticism and traditional mystery with the purpose of concealing ones accomplishments in fear of persecution. That's just an old excuse now that is unfit for modern times in most countries.

 

I can say things with confidence about Xiao Yao Pai, because whenever someone challenges me, all I have to do is just invite them to a seminar so they can verify it for themselves. It's that simple. I don't even need to talk. Why waste the time?

 

I can end any argument like that in one line:

"If you don't believe me, come and try it yourself."

 

Around this point is when most people online shit themselves, because they don't expect that reply and they are caught off guard. Why don't they expect that reply?

 

Because most schools actually have nothing they can demonstrate or use as evidence of their claims, and because of this for a long time now inter-school debates have been limited by this unwritten, and unspoken, but mutually accepted agreement.

 

It's like some sort of pseudo diplomatic facility designed to save face, and it's expressed like this:

 

Don't call me out and ask me for evidence and I won't call you out and ask you for evidence, this way we can both keep our honour and integrity and continue to run around the merry go round of philosophy and literature.

 

So the reaction I usually get when I reply that way is this:

 

Wait, what?! Did he say come and try it?

He's not gonna talk me to death about philosophy and texts?

 

Nope. I'm not. Just come and try it.

Unless you're scared of what you might find.

 

And No, I don't mean come and try it and get the evidence in 5 years or 20 years.

No. 30 minutes that's all.

 

Normally, after I call their bluff, they just walk away with their tail tucked between their legs, because I've broken their philosophy comfort zone and they cannot stand on the same ground in terms of practical evidence.

 

This is when the real intentions of the practitioner emerge to the surface. Up till this day those that challenge me who prefer to hide behind texts and never show any proof of their claims, have all been invited to come and prove us wrong.

 

How many of those sensei loud mouths have come so far? None. Zero. 

Why? Because they are scared it is true and that it will destroy their belief system.

 

Even as a student of Xiao Yao Pai, I love to visit other schools, explore new things, meet teachers, and continue to educate myself in a variety of ways. I think that to have this sort of attitude even after you have found something that works very well, is evidence of an open mind. I wish everyone would act this way, instead of locking themselves within the walls of their school and the mind of their teacher, who one day, they might even transcend.

 

Life Is a great big adventure, but let's be honest to ourselves. All of us that claim to offer people genuine results; we have to be able to show people that what we say is true and not just talk about it or refer people to texts.

 

Evidence shows the truth. Evidence dispels myths and rumours. Evidence should not be a taboo.

So why is everyone so afraid of showing some evidence if they claim they have it? 

 

The level of theatricality is just too damn high.

 

Let's see evidence and results people. To everyone, I say put your money where your mouth is, or try to stop running it - and if you don't, you can't blame people for always looking at you suspiciously and assuming that you're trying to deceive them.

 

Why not just dispel all the negativity and put all the doubt to rest with one swift stroke?

Surely it would take less energy than all this.

 

Well, that's what I think anyway.

Again, I have no issues with anyone on this forum, be it you OpenDao or Shaman Flowing Hands or whoever else.

 

I actually love the diversity. It's so exciting.

 

All I wish for is that people would stop making conclusions about other schools practice methods without having any direct experience of them first. It's simple. It's logical. It's fair. Even a 5 year old can understand the concept of evidence, surely we can also?

 

I guess it's too much to ask for to be reasonable and scientific. 

But hey... to each their own : )

 

Finally, here is a new years resolution for you guys;

 

Lets try to talk less and do more.

 

Sure, The Dao Bums might be a little less interesting in a world like that, but at least it would be easier for people to separate the wheat from the chaff. That's what we're here to help do right? To help others? Or are most of you just helping yourselves? Because if we're here to help others make good decisions about practice, why make them dance in circles? Just give it to them black and white.

 

I don't mean to sound cocky, but either you practice something and can demonstrate it or you can't.

 

Evidence... try it guys. It's not too hard. Just try to give it. You might actually like the positive feelings it brings!

Chi go circle body is a temporary state, and it appear by itself.

We should not use any methods to control it, or the methods will stop the changes to the next state, 混沌恍惚渺冥

 

Because they do meditation only by sitting.

Our body have many layers. We should practice all layers.

If we practice only by sitting and keep awake, the Extra Yang will make the chi stay in head and make us feel sick.

 

Your emptiness is not real emptiness, because you know your body is forgotten.

 

Perfect : )

 

We actually had a case like this recently in our school with one of our newly initiated.

They had a lot of energy stuck in the head and were constantly getting headaches for years.

 

After we started to teach them they have learned now how to relax and found that the energy has begun to move all around the body, ebbing and flowing; from one place to the next; as it should...

 

We have to understand that the mind is "fixed" within the boundaries of its own conscious experiential parameters. It does not know what it does not know, so we cannot employ it to know the unknown - this is redundant.

 

We have to keep an open and relaxed awareness during practice, because any activation of the mind in the early stages will obscure the 玄關 from stabilising.

 

Very nice points, awaken.

However Dao De Jing is ONE and there is nothing comparable so far.

And results, described in DDJ are still can be found in students who follow old ways and not modern primitive fake evangelists.

 

Our liberty to compare one thing to another is limited by our experience, and so I do not agree with you.

Hopefully the ways you follow will one day cure some of your bitterness towards the more primitive people, who presumably lack the results you only speak of.