effilang

Vibrations， frequencies, divine energy.. hmmm, I really do feel like I'm on a New Age board, not a Daoist one. Ahh.. Western Daoism...

 

Right. You're one of those guys...

 

Didn't know electromangetism and physics terminology were a new age phenomenon?

Perhaps you'd care to elaborate on that a little more?

 

Divine energy is synonymous to the Primordial Qi of Wuji. Not a hard one to deduce contextually..

 

It seems that you're distracted by the name of the finger pointing to the moon - while missing the moon altogether in exchange for the opportunity to a remark of ignorance perpetuating dismissal.

 

Do you think the Dao did not exist before the word Dao was thought up by the mind?

In case you haven't noticed, we don't live in 3000 BCE anymore... 

We've made some discoveries in that time since... that is also Dao.

 

It might be a good time to consider the fact that Daoism has never stayed the same.

It has always been an ever-evolving and organic complex of systems, waxing and waning with the ages.

That much we can see by its history.

 

In the face of evolution and the constant of change, that which doesn't adapt, dies.

This is also an excellent description (in Taoist terms) of what happens with all guru/deity practices. Thank you for sharing the wisdom.

 

Thanks, Jeff. Funnily, I thought about you while writing the last couple of paragraphs 

Is this the same as done by doing Wu Ji Gong form_Primordial Tai Chi?

 

Actually, Wuji energy cannot be absorbed directly into the human body, because the energy is too fine and the frequency is too high, so it can adversely affect the system and shock it. Our Hu Fa Shen also have to step down to interact with some aspects of our human complex. If they just stay in their native vibration, we can't even see them with our eyes and when we can see them with our extrasensory perception they still have to tune down their energy body relative to our level otherwise they will just blind us with glaring divine light due to the intensity of their Yang Shen.

 

In Houtian the progression from Jing > Qi > Shen is among other things, so that the practitioner can begin to tune their energy to match the same vibration of Wuji; this then allows them to immerse their developing Xiao Yang Shen directly in the sea of primordial Wuji to bathe and absorb divine energy directly into their forming subtle immortal body.

 

In Xiao Yao Pai, during initiation we trigger the Shen directly to consciously activate that vibration, then Hu Fa Shen acts as a bridge between Wuji and Taiji to help us step down and transform the pure primordial Qi into Taiji energy that our body can absorb, meanwhile our Yuan Shen which is enveloped by our schools golden aura directly absorbs the highest vibration of Wuji and it begins to condense and become more solid; merging the 3 Hun and 7 Po into one entity; Yang Shen. This is why many newly initiated can see the dancing flowers and falling snow during initiation and start to feel a shapeless vapor forming above their head. This is the start of the Yang Shen beginning to congeal outside the body in the golden cocoon of our school's divine energy. This is often a final stage manifestation referred to as the "birth of the immortal child" in Houtian Neidan, but in our system it happens at the start and we do not have to be afraid to leave our Yang Shen outside of the body after it is born, because HFS protects us and our aura repels any Yin entities, while in Houtian Neidan, the "holy spirit" (hola Yeshua ) that is born for the first time has no protection, no home and no parents. For these roles we have the celestial branch of Xiao Yao Pai and our Hu Fa Shen.

 

So at first the golden aura which surrounds us and wraps around our spirit comes form our school and Hu Fa Shen, but as we continue to cultivate, the ratio starts to shift from: 100:0 to 70:30, 60:40, 50:50, 40:60, 20:80, 10:90, 0:100.

 

On the left of that ratio spectrum our aura's divine energy is called Shen Li and comes from our school and Hu Fa Shen's energy, but on the right of that spectrum, our energy has developed completely and Hu Fa Shen's protective energy has disappeared entirely. Our aura is now called Gong Li; and at this point we can stand independently in Wuji at the level of Hu Fa Shen. This development is correlated with the development of Yang Shen in Xiantian Dao Yin Shu.

 

Moving practices generally cannot absorb Wuji. They are usually a type of Qigong that develops the Taiji energy in the houtian meridians, but because this energy relates to the physical body; after we die, it disperses within this realm and cannot enter Wuji, because its vibration is too low (too physical), so it stays in Taiji and gets recycled based on the law of conservation of energy.

 

To be able to absorb Wuji energy, one first needs to have gotten to the Shen level of cultivation, through meditation, then learn how to transform the energy downwards so it can be used safely in in the houtian meridians that affect the physical tissues or when used during Wai Qi Liao Fa to project it into another persons energy body.

 

If someone is claiming to be absorbing Wuji Qi during a moving practice, it means they have already achieved all of the above and are always "there", always absorbing. Their Yang Shen is developed and conscious and residing in Wuji all the time, absorbing energy 24/7. Then it doesn't matter if you're on the toilet pooping or doing Taiji; the connection is established and conscious, so the process requires no doing and is a very high level Wuwei Gong, however if we sit and pacify the acquired mind; then the process of absorption is augmented and made more efficient.

 

I don't believe that anyone can learn that in 15 or 20 minutes as is claimed by Wuji Qigong Taiji instructors, because Houtian Neidan practitioners spend all their lives trying to get to the Shen level so they can start entering Wuji to cultivate Yang Shen, but maybe I'm wrong.

Lao Tzu and Jesus didn't talk directly about energy or the immortal fetus...

 

Are you sure?     

Alchemy requires a-lot of 'doing' until achieved high level (when no longer normal human), then non-doing becomes possible. For human, its all about doing the hard work to get the result and transform, until then, it's a-lot of doing-youwei. 

 

This is incorrect and misleading. Wu Wei is initiated as soon as our awareness begins to resonate with the stillness of Wuji, even before making direct contact. This is manifested in all levels of Tai Yin meditation (still body, still breath, still mind).

 

If your Jingzuo and Zuowang involve a voluntary movement in either of the three above ie: body, breath, imagination - you are trapped in Youwei and thus cannot go above the frequency of Taiji; therefore, the immortal spirit cannot even begin to be cultivated.

 

Wuwei is not a high level achievement. It is the basis of all Tai Yin meditation (Great Yin), which is the basis for achieving and maintaining a state of stillness in which ones awareness can expand and re-connect with its original nature.

 

There's no such thing as having to be "no longer human" to enter Wuwei practice.

 

There is still "doing" in Wuwei, but it is not active doing. The mind is not engineering, guiding or governing the doing; yet in this non-activity the most important thing becomes active and of its own, self-doing. This is the way to Xuan Guang, Yuan Xing and manifesting the light of the true self.

 

In our school we don't focus too much on the physical body and Ming. We just keep it healthy and follow a balanced diet. We can also eat whatever we like and have active sex lives. This is due to the source of our energy during cultivation, as we absorb Primordial Qi directly from Wuji during Xiantian Dao Yin Shu. Once this energy penetrates Taiji and interacts with our Shen we then step it down or transform it into a lower vibration which can be processed safely by the energy of the human body to support the Dantien and meridian reservoirs which can distribute the energy as necessary to regulate our Ming.

 

So the difference between Xiantian and Houtian methods in terms of "source" is that in Xiantian we absorb divine energy from the finest vibration then convert it downwards, while in Houtian we begin with the coarse. This is one of the reasons why physical sexual celibacy is often required in Houtian.

 

In Houtian we use force to throw the rock up into the air, because we must move from Jing to Qi to Shen to Wuji to Dao. In Xiantian we just let the rock fall from high and allow gravity to naturally do its job, because we move from Shen to Wuji to Dao, so the part which requires a lot of Youwei ie: building the energy "rocket" to propel the consciousness outside of Taiji, is skipped due to the fact that our spirit is wrapped with a cocoon of divine energy during initiation that encapsulates and replicates this function, while giving some extra perks.

 

During the earlier phases of practice in Xiantian systems, Shen Gong and Qigong is used to calibrate the Ming, but while Ming is being worked on we are always Xiu Xin Yang Xing consciously through the day and during Jingzuo, where our Xing is purified in a natural way (Ziran) to clear and still (Qingjing) the acquired conditioned virtues while bringing forth the radiant virtues (De) of our Yuan Shen and Yuan Xing.

 

All this leads us to become "Xiao Yao" with minimal to no effort. Hence the name of our school: Xiao Yao Pai.

If you want to program yourself with the idea of "hard work", it is your choice, but it is not the reality of cultivation.

 

The only thing challenging about spiritual cultivation is consistency. Everything else is natural.

And if a teacher has achievement, how do they demonstrate this to leave no doubt? Because immortality cant be 'demonstrated' except by out living everyone (self demonstration).

 

Would-be teachers need to lead with RESULTS, otherwise we have NO WAY to judge them or the veracity of their claim to be teachers in the first place.

 

Physical Immortality is one purported effect of neidan in houtian xiulian, but there are many accompanying skills, which a true teacher should be able to demonstrate.

 

I directed this question at AAK some time ago, but have not received a reply.

Here is some background: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42697-yuxianpai-wuliupai-tradition-doctrine/?p=724254

 

Wuliu Pai, as other schools, claim to develop physical immortality and AAK recently stated that the physical body which is houtian jing, qi and shen is converted to Yang Shen; essentially going against what a lot of the Daoist literature claims; in that the postnatal cannot generate the prenatal.

 

So I'd like to ask a very fundamental question and simple question once again, not only to Wuliu Pai, but to all schools who claim that the impermanent physical body can be absorbed into and converted to Yang Shen, so that there is no longer a dying body present, but only the undying immortal body - or that the physical body can be made to last forever (immortality).

 

AAK claimed that they age in reverse and get younger instead of older, never get sick and escape death.

 

Wuliu Pai from my understanding is around 500 years old, again, please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not familiar with your history. In this time, could we safely assume that you may have had at least 250 students, on the basis of around a 100 years of life with 50 students per century? - Maybe you have more students, maybe less. I am just using this as a crutch to illustrate my point.

 

So here is my question:

 

To support these claims in lieu of any demonstrations, in those ~500 years, can you point to any of your masters or their master's masters, whom are an embodiment of these achievements and are still alive today?

 

What are their names and where can we meet them?

 

There are pretty much two possibilities IMHO:

 

1. What AAK says is true and the masters of the school, going back to its inception are still alive today and teaching and have escaped death and achieved physical immortality.

 

OR

 

2. All the masters and their masters died an ordinary death and were either buried or cremated, indicating that the physical immortality claimed in their schools which supports the notion that the physical body can be prevented from dying and decaying, is actually false?

 

How does Wuliu Pai reconcile these beliefs with the history of their school?

Surely at least one of the Wuliu Pai masters must have achieved these things if they are teaching others about it?

 

What sort of argument can you give us AAK to substantiate these statements?

 

Gray hair that returns to original colour?

 

Gray hair returning to its original colour is not an indication of physical immortality.

The person will still die and be buried with their non-white hair.

 

It's my understanding that the IRF4 Gene is responsible for melanin regulation in hair:

http://www.genecards.org/cgi-bin/carddisp.pl?gene=IRF4

 

Gene therapy will soon enough be able to change the hair colour to anything you like without dye; from gray to ginger.

 

Everyone will still die... It is the nature of all things born of Taiji; they are bound by the law of Yin and Yang; and so they are bound by death and decay. This is why in spiritual cultivation we focus on the cultivation of the immortal spirit only by using prenatal energy.

So if you opened it, could you please tell us where is it located?

Trick question...

 

No worries : )

I appreciate that, Pavel. Thank you. I just wanted to voice my opinion of what seems to be an emerging trend; one I don't really find conducive to overall harmony in the forum, but those are just my feelings : )

 

Most of the new Wuliu members that joined recently have a different grade and air about them to those that were previously active here, now temporarily banned I believe, so I'm pleased with your arrivals, especially that of AAK, who has facilitated very productive debates thus far.

 

I think there are already translations, but its always interesting to see new interpretations. Please share.

Scientist???

Not just, Brian. He is also the "greatest" Russian scientist of them all.

I don't mean to be rude, but it seems like there has been an organised consensus among your schools members to register on this board in the past week and open up a new thread every time you want to make a new point on something.

 

Often you will gang up on one person who doesn't agree with your views. What's with that mentality? As if your arguments are stronger in numbers or something?

 

The whole Daoist section is turning into a Wuliu Pai forum, with every other thread being started with the aim of discrediting another member on the board...

 

Isn't it possible for your school members to be a little more organised and use 1 or 2 threads to post Wuliu related things, as opposed to 10?

 

It's easier to keep track for starters.

Now calm down, love. Harmony and balance are the cornerstones of successful practice, remember? Also I feel quite lost when reading your lengthy posts. I personally always try to follow George Orwell's 5 rules for effective writing, i.e. Never use a long word where a short one will do, etc likewise.

 

Let's go back to our sheep - so you state that Awaken has already posted so much and why to ask? Don't be daft! Firstly, I could not find much needed information from her posts. Possibly there are a lot, but I don't speak Chinese. Secondly, why asking a simple question regarding a system and lineage caused such a reaction from you? This is quite odd. Thirdly, why not to share with us this information? - I believe this to be an elementary question, and an avoidance to answer it makes me very suspicious.

 

Dear Awaken, I am a sincere person, and I do have a sincere interest to learn about your school and system of practice. I would very much appreciate if you could share with us the basic concepts of your teaching, e.g. what is important, how to start, is it possible to start online, overview of stages of cultivation, etc. I just feel that apart from criticizing another school you are not writing much about your system and this is really quite bizarre.

What a repulsively conceited response.

Your acting is so transparent.

 

If you're really as genuine as you profess, just join her QQ group.

 

It is evident from awaken's reply to you, that she similarly has no interest to entertain your pointless questions, and for the ones that actually have to do with practice, as she has said: read her posts and you will find the answers.

 

Excluding the Chinese words, incase you're having a hard time with the dictionary or asking many of the Chinese speakers here for help, there is more than enough instructions in her posts that is clear and concise.

@dwai

 

It is time we truly recognize that the era of the hunter is past. This should be a more “feminine” era – an era when women make greater contributions to society. If we continue to devalue what women have to offer, we will continue harming women and continue overlooking and devaluing these virtues that are considered “feminine.” And these are precisely the virtues that the world needs more now.                         ~ 17th Karmapa

 

Not just for women, but also for men to express themselves more femininely : )

An old crazy/wise member (RJ) once stated 'How will your practice help you, after you are dead?'

 

That depends on how you practice while you are alive!

Since we are all like-minded people and have interest in Taoism and Ancient Tradition in general, it is important to understand gender roles in society from traditional point of view. Lets discuss the roles and functions of male and female and how this concept is seen in Taoism. Any views, insights, experience you wish to share?

 

So you want to know how Taoist women treated men and how Taoist men treated women several thousand years ago, so you can apply that to modern life? - How are traditional gender roles "important" to us in the present time of our lives?

 

I'm genuinely curious, lol.

Dear Awaken,

 

I am interested in knowing more about your school and methods. Could you please share with us the basic concepts of teaching, and also name your teacher's name and his lineage?

 

Are you kidding around? She has shared SO much already.

Just click on her user profile and check all her posts on the forum...

 

What is her teacher's name going to help you with?

Maybe she improved on her teachers teaching and what she has now is even more refined?

 

Isn't it better to focus on her since you want to learn from her?

Surely what she has learned from her teacher will be reflected in her own teaching?

 

This is so silly. It is like going to a martial arts class for the first time and asking the Shifu. 

 

"Hey, Shifu, who was your Shifu?"

"My Shifu was XYZ"

"Oh ok, great I will sign up for your class now"

 

Won't you even challenge the guy to a fight first?

Maybe you can beat him already.......................

 

Don't be blind followers people.

This is turning into extremist spirituality akin to a following of religious zealots.

 

Use your wisdom to discern what is NOW. Find the wisdom in what is presented to you NOW.

1) Since all superb Taoist alchemical  ways are  related to cosmology , an arena of  modern physics,  why people don't  pay more attention  to it ? Taoism views human body as a miniature of the much bigger cosmos, so there likely is  somewhat   relation/similarity  in between the Magic gateway ('玄關')  , the most important issue in neidan practice , and the black/white hole ?

 

Dao > Wuji > Taiji

 

Taiji = All physical phenomena, both particle and wave. Planets, Moons, Stars, Galaxies and Universes and Black Holes, are all part of Taiji.

 

Xuan Guang is an opening to Wuji, not Taiji; so material things cannot pass through it, but awareness can.

 

2)  The  highest Taoist  achievement is said to be  attaining  Shen, a special form of Wisdom ,   what is its relation to  AI or other forms of human intelligence , even to  the  iOT ?  

 

It has a personal local aspect which relates to your own personal experiences ie: past lives, memories, talents, emotions.

It has a global aspect which relates to the collective consciousness of the Dao and absolute truths, which can be accessed directly.

It has a foreign local aspects which relates to the experiences of other souls, which can be accessed on request and at the discretion of the respective soul.

 

Human Intelligence is the result of data collected by the 5 senses of the body which generate idea, memory, belief clusters that layer over one another over the years. The first to be created during our formative years, usually 3 to 6 years, are the most important, because once those layers are built up, every other new stream of data that is snapshotted has to traverse through this medium of relative ideas. So the new relative beliefs have to refract through the old relative beliefs. In other words the rate at which we lose our connection to our Yuan Xing is not linear, it is exponential.

 

AI is just AI, you know what that is. It's a product of human intelligence, but it lacks WILL and VOLITION.

Even at its highest point, it will always function as 1s and 0s, no matter how much information it can reference and connect to give the appearance of genuine intelligence. It will always lack the essence of spirit which is something which few people can achieve, talk less of reverse engineering it to infuse an AI. The only way I see that happening is if somehow DNA was manipulated to rewire the seat of a humans organic intellect to that of an AI core and then use that DNA to conjoin an egg with a sperm and let spirit do what it does and develop a biological organism which is a hybrid between organics and electronics. It's theoretically possible. The only problem is that the AI probably couldn't keep up with the amount of information that is being processed by our senses every second of the day. Where would it store it? How would the Yuan Shen upload the information from the AI to record it as it does other former life experiences? Will it be dull and stupid due to its inability to process information quickly enough? Who knows. Science will tell us one day.

 

3)  Taoist daozhan (collection of Taoist classics )  is so huge that to exploit it involves issues of text mining and big data , anybody ever thinks of  talking about it ?  

 

That would be a waste of time to me. At the most it would be entertaining.

 

4) Forever  youth is what Taoism affirms , it involves issues of skin care, regeneration , DNA.. that seldom people here  touch.

 

Modern science is innovating very successfully in all these fields. I reckon in another 50 years, the only thing that will prevent people from living for a very very long time, say another 50 or 100 years on top of their current age, will be primarily money.

 

Daoism stagnated for a VERY long time. I always say that if you look back at the sages. They were always innovating, introducing new ideas, introducing new inventions and EVOLVING culture. That was several thousand years ago. Look at Daoism today. What advances have we made? Still sitting around 3000 years later, discussing the old master's books. What a god damn shame. Then again, if we're so stupid that after several millenia we still can't agree on one thing, we sure as hell aren't gonna innovate, lol.

 

If any of these ancient schools that claim their members never die were so genuine, we would have heard about it in the news and science would have started investigating it. Alas, we know where we stand.

 

At the end of the day. It's not about how much time we have, but how we use it. If we assume most people will have an average life, its more than enough to make some very very solid work in cultivation.

 

5) Acupuncture  nowadays is widely applied on animals/pets  : dog ,cat ..when they get sick ,  but can  it be applied on a parrot , dolphin or  octopus ? What forms of distribution of qi on them ? Say,  how the DU channel runs on an octopus ?  What acupuncture points we should choose when curing a dolphin ?What is its relation to biological holography  ?

 

From what I know it is being done in veterinary acupuncture, even for dolphins. Who managed to map the acupuncture system of these animals and when did it happen? Who knows. It's a good thing the animals can't speak....

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.

 

I wouldn't judge people so harshly, AAK, for not being able to answer.

It is after all a lengthy answer depending on how in-depth you wish to go.

I usually have long posts, but just thinking about starting to explain all that makes me shiver.

 

We don't have to know the details of how one energy form converts to another or how a nuclear reactor operates, so that we can switch on the lights at home or make a cup of tea.

 

Many of these transformations happen because they happen with good practice and not necessarily due to our knowledge of them. We can stoke the fire and miraculous transformations can happen of their own. Do we need to know how exactly, no. Everything has its nature and its way. If we pacify the mind as a form of resistance, all things will follow ziran and express their divine nature, without effort. Yes, I agree there is a time to do and a type to stop doing in practice, but even the time for this can be felt if one refines their sensitivity.

 

I know plenty of people who do know any terminology, cannot recognize any charts or pictures, or know what is going on, but they have made much more progress than those that have spent years studying it.

 

Maybe the philosophy of the Dao isn't always the best way to judge someones level of practical achievement.

Most spiritual experiences are ineffable beyond a point. All we can do to communicate them is reduce them and cram them down into words and symbols so the mind can understand. Even so, the mind does not know what it does not know. All it can do is imagine it until it experiences it directly, at which point, who cares if you can explain it? : )

Another point is that the true teacher has a proven achievement and a traditional line and methods, while reading the book only gives you a huge field of guessing what to do with the abstract practice written or translated by somebody.

 

So does that mean that the true teacher's book which documents his methods is good enough, or did the teacher purposefully give wrong instructions to hurt others? : )

 

If I know that 1 + 1 = 2 and I go to teach first grade maths, I will not write on the board 1 + 1 = 3.

I don't think that the benevolent sages of old, wrote down instructions with the aim of hurting people.

Yes, they used a lot of substitutes and symbols, but the instructions were still accurate and that is why people were able to achieve results.

 

Just like If I said,  Potato + Potato = Potatoes

All that is required of the student is to understand that Potato is in the singular form, then he can deduce that "Potatoes" means 2.

 

I know many people who meditated on their own for a long time and penetrated into the divine realm where they found a spirit teacher to guide them further yet.

 

What you're arguing though is that one cannot even get to THAT stage without a human teacher.

Let me ask you this, ok. It's a very simple question and I want to see if you can answer sincerely from your heart.

 

Were you born with the idea that you cannot achieve it without a teacher, or was it taught to you?

Ah ok here is what I meant to say.

 

By the body I mean more of the alchemy process where the essence of the spirit and body meat in the middle dantian (creating the vajra in the heart) and the golden body manifests that way for us. Now from that point we work on absorbing divine energy and the spirit world.

 

Now it seems that the taoist neidan approach is more of cultivation the body jing qi shen via mco breathing techniques etc and projecting the spirit body and cultivating in the spirit realm then bringing the spirit body back in and attaining the taoist gold body of light that way.

 

So my question would be do you spirit project out in your training and cultivate in the spirit realm directly if so do you feel that this way is a faster way of serving the earthly and heavenly realms?

 

You will have to wait for AAK's answer on the first questions, as his tradition is more familiar with that I think, because I see that you are saying we need to project to create the spiritual body, then come back into the body again for something else?

 

Ohh.. wait I understand what you're saying now.

 

So In houtian when the immortal child is born, what we call Xiao Shen (baby or small shen), we usually have to bring it back in to protect it, just like a new born baby. Especially because it is still unintelligent due to our not completing the fusion with awareness yet. So it is naive and susceptible to attack. So yes, it must be withdrawn into the body to continue the process of maturation or melding with our awareness.

 

In Xiantian the Xiao Shen does not need protection because we are wrapped with divine energy, so we have no reason to withdraw it, but projecting the Xiao Shen is not fully synonymous with entering Wuji. Just like the energy of the Ren and Du meridians can change its property to synchronize with divine energy, but the meridians don't have to move. Nevertheless, the projection or birth is important, because it is part of the maturation process of the Yang Shen. Just like a physical baby cannot begin to live until it is delivered. 

 

There is also a difference between someone giving you a rubber hose to use to give yourself water (divine energy) and jumping in the sea.

 

So, what im trying to say is that, whether the Yang Shen is outside or inside the body, it is always connected to Wuji. We can absorb divine energy inside the body or outside the body, but for houtian practitioners its safer to recall it back to the body to protect it while it matures, but they still continue to absorb divine energy from Wuji, just a little more differently.

 

The frequency of our awareness is what allows us to channel and sustain the state of Wuji through which we absorb divine awareness. So its not an ability triggered by the Yang Shen, but by our awareness. That's why during initiation we trigger the Shen in the apprentice, so that there awareness can tune the radio to the right frequency immediately, then we just wu wei.

 

So there is no need for the Yang Shen to MOVE in a physical way, because it is beyond space-time and inter-dimensional. So by being here, it is also there simultaneously. Our awareness and our soul also has this property, so actually a part of the human is always connected to the divine 24/7, even before they begin Neidan, even just after we are born, but our conscious awareness of this is what triggers our interaction with it on a practical level. So houtian builds a trigger to activate this, while xiantian methods start with the trigger, we just pull and fire.

 

For houtian practitioners, after the Xiao Shen is born, they cannot abandon the body, they must continue to cultivate for a long time until it is mature and aware. That's why houtian also places such a big emphasis on the physical body, because they need it to live as long as possible to finish the process, but in xiantian in XYP, after our energy congeals into Xiao Yan Shen, even if we die, HFS just guides us and protects us in the divine realm so we can continue to cultivate there and absorb divine energy. This is why in xiantian in XYP, we don't focus on the physical body beyond basic health. We have no diets. Nobody has to be a vegetarian. Eat what you like, do what you like, drink what you like. Like Lu Dong Bin eh? -  It does not affect our spirit work. That is naturalness (ziran). No rules. The Dao is the way without a way. That is why the moment we trigger real Neidan, it's wuwei from there on. The mind has no business at this level : )

 

In essence, after our Yang Shen begins to fuse with our awareness, it is like our awareness is delivered from the mother Earth (Taiji), that granted us the experiences necessary to evolve our awareness trough lifetimes, and into the spiritual world (Wuji), then it must mature (transfer/upload) together with the developing Yang Shen to become one.

 

PS: If breathing is involved with the MCO, it's still Qigong, because the breath is needed to support the movement of Qi. Later when the awareness integrates with the Qi, breath is not needed to fan or move it. Just mind.

I'm curious about the notion of Buddhists developing the body. If we're speaking of the two major forms of Buddhism, IME from living in monasteries and meeting bikkkhu and bikkhuni, that have been practicing upwards of 30 years in the sangha, I had yet to find one that was not feeble bodied and weak and there was never any body cultivation, only awareness and wisdom cultivation, but that lacks the development of the divine vehicle with which the awareness fuses: Yang Shen. In fact they even advised against doing physical exercise to enhance the body as it "attached" our awareness to the the body.

 

My issue with most Buddhist practice is that it is forming:

 

You have, the 4 noble truths, the 8 precepts, renunciation, completion and generation stage practice visualization etc.

All these have sets of rules to be followed, which help to point one in the direction of detaching from worldly life.

 

Do not do this, do that.

Do that, do not do this.

Visualize this, not that.

 

It is forming, and the form that those rules create tune the mind to a certain frequency; that is why the mind of a typical Buddhist has a form; the Buddhist form, fashioned by their many rules and literature.

 

This form has its own frequency which supposedly takes one to the highest goal, but the highest goal is the Dao and the Dao is formless, so how can the conceptual form of rules synchronize us with the highest goal, and how can form take us to the highest which is formless?

 

Kong = emptiness.

Empty, but not void. 

 

So something is missing there.

 

The immortals I know are happy, laughing, enjoy pleasure and delight and love to experience and appreciate existence.

This type of attitude is very different to the principles of Buddhism which encourage detachment from senses and abandoning the world to live a holy life. Even Nirvana means to extinguish or blow out (the fire of the three poisons), but In Daoism we grab the bull by the horns and jump on it's back and enjoy the ride. We are here to experience. It's very different.

 

We embrace the world, while Buddhists tend to look at is as illusory and avoid it. 

There is no illusion, the world is very real and our experience here is also very real and very important.

 

Why come to Earth, this beautiful planet teeming with life, creatures and experiences waiting to be had, if we were to simply hide away from it and seclude ourselves?

 

Daoism began by following nature. Nature does not hide away from itself, it embraces all.

 

I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.

 

This is how Buddha discovered Dhyana. He described it as being born of seclusion and convinced himself that we must move away from life to achieve it. Later when he left the palace for the first time, this further developed his idea that life was Dukkha and we must "escape" it. 

 

I'm sure that If I was kept in the palace all my life, fed grapes, got 8 hand massages from pretty ladies all day long, and pleasure and delight was all I knew of life, SURELY, when I left the palace and all I saw was sickness, death and old age - I would quickly develop an aversion to the reality of "life". That is why Buddhism looks at life so bitterly. It all stems from Buddha's initial reaction to reality and the idea about life as being something we must escape from, because his basis for this comparison and the conclusion that he established thereof was his privileged and lavish royal life.

 

If we look at the story of the three vinegar tasters, we see that:

 

- Kongfuzi said it was sour, because the world was imperfect and laws and regulations were needed to "correct" it.

- Buddha said it was bitter, because the world was filled with suffering and a method was needed to "escape" it.

- Laozi said it was sweet, because the world and all things had their inherent harmony, and rules only caused resistance against this natural flow, which needed not any "way" to be achieved, because we are already it, and so he looked at life positively and as having a sweet taste.

 

What is the purpose of spiritual cultivation?

 

To develop the spiritual body that can fuse with our awareness so we have a vehicle to traverse the spiritual realms.

We cannot create a spiritual body in the physical realm so we must first SHIFT our awareness to move from the physical realm (Taiji) to enter the spiritual realm (Wuji). The awareness actually has this multidimensional property.

 

Once the awareness has shifted into Wuji, we can begin to create the spiritual body (Yang Shen).

Then when we fuse the awareness to the developing spiritual body, we can slowly begin to operate it.

It's like we transfer our consciousness to it so it can absorb it fully, but it's not immediate, it is gradual.

 

That is why in some books they say that after the spiritual child is delivered from the top of the head into the spirit realm for the first time, it is still dull and stupid (just like a newborn baby) that has to absorb data through the senses to develop it's intelligence. The difference is that our intelligence has already developed as adults, so we just transfer it and fuse it into one body, then gradually the Yang Shen becomes operational. This is why, even though we get access to our former live's information and talents, immortals project themselves in the vision of their final earthly body and its corresponding awareness.

 

That is why it is SO VERY important to develop your intelligence and wisdom on Earth.

Here is where we can do it, because there are also OTHER PEOPLE here.

 

If we were alone, there is no way to advance, right? - Because we cannot interact with anyone.

Nobody can challenge us to make us angry, or jealous or anxious.

IF nobody or nothing is there to make those imperfections come up to the surface, how can we know they are there, waiting to be refined?

 

Can you see the importance now of entering society and being a part of life, vs leaving it to go into seclusion?

It is like shooting our potential for wisdom in the foot, but also for karma resolution. So we must live life as much as we can, it's for our own benefit. The spiritual body of the Dao itself cannot be inflicted with pain. That is why some theories claims that the Dao was so great and perfect, that it could not fully fathom its own perfection and infinity, so it spiraled down into physical existence so that through the imperfections and limitations of the physical body it could know itself completely, know its angers, know its frustrations, jealousies and pains - and then through that experience perfect them and rise above them to realize itself as Dao, in essence knowing its perfection through knowing its imperfection. It's an interesting theory : ) 

 

IF, we don't develop this intelligence and wisdom so we can refine our awareness and negative Yin characteristics, when what happens when we begin to develop the spiritual body and meld our awareness to it? I think you guessed it already. It cannot develop past Yin Shen level... Because we did not refine the Yin qualities.

 

I know monks who have been in the monastery for a looooooooong time. Longer than my time on earth.

They thought they had overcome all their negative characteristics, why? Because in the monastery everybody follows the rules, so nobody makes you angry, everybody is kind and compassionate. It is like trying to find a virus in a medical cleanroom; its very hard. So how can you know to refine your negative traits if they are never aroused? When they leave the monastery for the first time, they fall apart because the first person to insult them triggers them immediately and their whole wall of achievement crumbles in front of them.

 

The best swords are made in scorching fire, beaten between the anvil and the hammer, sparks flying.

 

So, the idea in Houtian is to raise our awareness from Jing to Qi to Shen after we reach Shen, then we are starting to push the membrane of Taiji - when we break that membrane, our awareness enters Wuji for the first time. HERE. We can begin to cultivate the immortal spiritual  body by absorbing the divine energy of Wuji into the spiritual body to solidify and strengthen it, just like the fetus absorbs the mothers energy to develop.

 

So, in Houtian we begin to build a bridge from one side of the cliff to the other.

When we get to the other side, we then start to cultivate the spirit by absorbing divine energy into the spiritual body to feed it and sustain it, so that it can develop from the spiritual sperm and egg (outer and inner medicines) to the zygote (great medicine) and from there turn into the embryo, then the fetus, then the baby (Xiao Shen Xien), then the baby is delivered from the top of the head to continue its growth. So before we can begin all this, in Houtian xiulian, we must ACTIVATE the Shen and breakout of Taiji, then we can start to ABSORB the divine energy from Wuji directly.

 

In Xiantian xiulian, we skip the building of the bridge entirely. During initiation our SHEN is activated on day one. Then through our assigned Hu Fa Shen tunes our awareness further so we start to absorb divine energy from Wuji from day one. Our spirit becomes wrapped with divine energy like a cocoon. That is the golden aura that wraps around every Dao Yu during initiation. Then when we sit down to practice and invite Hu Fa Shen, he guides our awareness to stay in Wuji, so we continue to absorb divine energy and our Yang Shen just develops naturally. So we enter Wu Wei in our Jing Zuo from day one. Then the transformation just happens automatically, no You Wei necessary at all.

 

The reason I say that our awareness is guided by HFS even after our SHEN is activated, is because your awareness cannot adjust in just one day after the initiation. We are used to having our awareness focused on our acquired earthly mind, so in the beginning stages of Xiantian practice, Hu Fa Shen will guide our awareness, and keep it in Wuji until we become conscious of its ability to shift between Taiji and Wuji, then we can independently MOVE it without Hu Fa Shen's guidance; and we just reside in Wuji and absorb divine energy so our Yang Shen grows.

 

This is why during initiation many people describe seeing the falling flowers and dancing snow, which is usually something you experience around the final stages of Taiji practice in Houtian when the immortal body breaks out of the head for the first time.

 

So the key is in the divine energy and absorbing it so that we can cultivate Hun Shen to Yin Shen to Yang Shen.

 

As someone who has practiced both systems, one of my greatest fascinations is connecting the dots between Houtian and Xiantian in terms of alchemical procedures, sequencing, timing, energy routes and meridians. 

 

I want to try and connect it as much as possible. My masters have no interest in the idea and I don't blame them, because when you have something that is working, you just go with it, but I feel like I have my feet in both of these ways, so I will do my best over the years to keep finding new puzzle pieces and putting together the grand picture so we  can find the subtle points of both approaches to spiritual cultivation for the benefit of all : )

 

Many people think that Shen Xian or Tian Xian level is it. Like that's it. There's nothing more after that, but that's not the case.

The Dao is infinite. So we are always always refining and Xiu Xin Yang Xing and preserving our Yuan Xing.

 

I'll give you an example:

 

Hu Fa Shen can see the future, but there is never only one future. Every given moment in the present can lead to multiply potential timelines and outcomes. So even though HFS can see what is going to happen, we as the student have the final say, because we have the power of free will. So that means we have the power to change our mind at any point and alter the future. So Hu Fa Shen can see one timeline and say, this is the most beneficial one for him, I will give him some small advice. Then because we are stubborn, we don't believe HFS, and say no, it can't be. I will do something else instead. Then after a while we realize we made the wrong decision and our life is a bit harder now. Then HFS facepalms.

 

For them it's tricky because they cannot really interfere with our life significantly. At the start they help a lot. If you slip your HFS will hold you up so you don't fall, but later as your wisdom matures, they just "watch". If you slip, they just watch to see if you will correct yourself so you don't fall down. If you do fall down, they just "watch" to see how you will pick yourself up.

 

So HFS, even though they are Yang Shen and already Shen Xian, through teaching us, also refine themselves be continuing to cultivate their Xiantian Wu Jing Shen. For example If Einstein was speaking to one of his colleagues, he could probably speak very easily at a very high level, but if you put a 10 year old in front of him, regardless of his wisdom, Einstein would be forced to find a way to communicate his wisdom to the child in a way he understands. That would help him refine his patience, his compassion, his understanding, his kindness and his flexibility.

 

So even with the Daoist Shen Xian, it is the same.

I am cultivating. My masters are cultivating. My Shifu is cultivating. My Hu Fa Shen is cultivating. Tai Shang is also cultivating : )

I think that only the western point of view in this matter is not enough. 

We have spoke about sexual orientation and gender but so far we have not spoke about energetic interactions inside the bodies. And I think that chinese devised a whole branch for females due to these energetic interactions. 

Besides, I don't think it is right to state that neidan is about formless spirit, we begin with the body and the body is form and polarity.

 

This is correct from one point of view, but there is another dimension to your answer which you have not introduced.

 

The process of creation is more akin to this:

Dao > [Wuji] > Yuan Shen > Yuan Qi > Yuan Jing > [Taiji] > Jing > Qi > Shen

 

So while from a human perspective, it's correct to say that we start with the body.

In reality, we know that we are not the body, so we can see that by the time we get to post-natal form (Jing), there is already quite a lot of transformation or spiraling down from the energy of the Divine Dao.

 

So the question is, after that has been said, does the spirit begin with the body or does the body begin with the spirit : )

 

The soul is at the center, always. The beginning and the end. 

 

The minimum necessary vessels for Neidan to happen are the qijing ba mai. In our tradition, in particular, not even all of them are needed, but only the first two which form right after the soul fuses with the zygote at the moment of conception; & these are Ren and Du. Again, perhaps this is in the differences between the starting point of Neidan in XT and HT. I cringe a little to call Xiantian Xiulian Neidan, due to where we start the process of spiritual cultivation, but it's a word which communicates a clear enough meaning.

 

If the sperm and egg conjoin, but the formless soul does not infuse them. Life cannot be produced.

 

If you haven't started working with the pre-natal energy then it's not Neidan yet. It is just Qigong.

If it's Neidan then it's only necessary to work with the qijing mai.

 

The physical body is for physical energy cultivation and the spiritual body is for spiritual energy cultivation, but the spirit cannot be cultivated with post Jing, Qi and Shen, which is why after actual Neidan starts, Wu Wei takes over and we simply reside, doing nothing and everything gets done.

 

If we are still doing by way of the body, then it's still You Wei, which means we have not touched Wuji yet.

If we have not touched Wuji yet, then we are still cultivating the body.

If we are still cultivating the body, then our awareness has not broken out of Taiji yet.

If our awareness has not broke out of Taiji yet, then we have not began work with the Qijing Ba Mai.

If we have not began work with the Qijing Ba Mai then we are practicing postnatal Qigong.

 

The Qijing Bamai don't just disappear after we are born.

They are there, in the background, but to access them we have to tune the frequency of our awareness to that vibration again, the vibration we have when we are still in the womb and just after we are born.

 

There is always Qi flowing through them. It's not like they suddenly open up when we begin to practice Nei Dan. IF they were not functioning we will die. Ren and Du are always working. Some people get confused when someone says, we have to open Ren and Du. They are already opened, but what changes is the state and quality of the energy that is flowing through the Qijing Bamai to produce a different effect to that of the post-natal Qi that primarily takes care of our organs and biological functions. So it is like we access a different dimension of these mai that post-natal Qi cannot touch.

 

If we set up the body initially, so that it is healthy. It is so that it will not disturb us during Neidan.

But setting up the body is not part of Neidan, maybe something like a foundational or a preliminary phase.

 

Nei Dan is about producing Da Dan.

Da Dan is formless and the basis of Yang Shen, which is also formless (Wuji).

For the heavy karma like death, there is no way. We have to come back and repay it with death to close the karmic loop and neutralize the relationship.

 

BUT

 

If during your life you focus on cultivating the subtle immortal spirit to the point that when your physical body dies you can leave Taiji, and you only have minor karma left to repay. THEN it's ok, you don't have to enter Taiji again for a new natural birth to live life as a human again. You can sign up for a duty and become a helper or a guardian or a teacher and pay your debt off that way through guiding someone in their dreams, or appearing as a vision or giving them subtle advice about life.

 

OR... OR... maybe, you can even become a Hu Fa Shen to the person/soul you didn't manage to meet during your life (ie because you hid away in a monastery) and repay the karma back through teaching if it corresponds with the weight of the karma.

 

It's not linear. There are different options.

 

The best option is to:

 

1. Cultivate our subtle spiritual body (Yang Shen) 

2. Be a part of life so that karma can unfold and we can meet our karmic soul-counterparts to collect and pay debts.

3. Generate Gong De through selfless deeds.

4. Develop our wisdom and intellect.

 

Then we can guarantee at least that when we die, if there is any heavy karma we have left to repay, like death, we can post-pone it for as long as we want and cultivate in Wuji before we have to enter Taiji again to repay the karma of a natural death.

 

It also guarantees our wisdom will allow us to go deeper into Wuji after we die, instead of getting stuck at the Yin Shen (awareness only) level and being forced to eventually reincarnate again.

 

AAK. This was in reference to what you said before.

We have the same principles in our school also.

 

Awareness + Yang Shen = Xian Shen (complete attainment)

 

If we cultivate awareness only and wisdom without a subtle body that can transport it in Wuji, then we can't go deep into the Dao, because we lack a spiritual body to transport us (Yang Shen).

 

As one of my masters says, awareness is the light that is projected by the lamp, while the lamp itself is the body, which can either be Yang Shen, Yin Shen or Human. All determine how deep we can penetrate into the Dao.

 

It is the same on earth to move our awareness around the earth so we can experience life, we need a physical body.

Effilang,

yes you are right about getting out of Taiji for immortals, however something still would be different for man and woman on high levels. Yang Shen would have specific abilities different for man and woman (saying that based on open Russian articles of WuLiupai disciples).

 

And I'm not talking about hohomosexsuals in practice, because this need investigation. And I don't have any info on this topic. I have my own opinion, but I would keep it, so not saying empty words. 

 

My point was that spirit is not asexual. 

However, A.A.Khokhlov expressed it better than me in point 2

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

 

Well I have never seen any difference in the product of practice between women and men in spiritual cultivation, both develop Yang Shen and I say this having have far more women in our school that we do men.

 

Yin and Yang collapse into Wuji. There is no woman is different from man here because there is no more man and woman.

 

Today I am a man, yet I have been a woman in my former lives, but also a man.

I have been homosexual and heterosexual in those past lives too.

How is it possible if spirit has one sex?

 

Do you think you have only been a man through all your lives?

 

Don't mistake the appearance of a spirit with its actual form.

One is just a projection the other one is Yuan Xing.

 

Again, I feel like our discrepancies here may be due to the differences in Xiantian and Houtian xiulian.

 

I think it's very interesting to try to make those connections and find out why one is different in yours, but not different in mine. Then we can draw a complete map.