johndoe2012

Anybody got experience in both Zhan Zhuang and Flying Phoenix chi kung? Which is most effective? The effects mentioned in this thread seem impressive for such a short total practice period.

Maybe one should read Meditation Works to get an "objective" view of different meditation styles to end this Buddhism vs Taoism debate once and for all.

His book looks interesting.

It cannot. That's why I see eg. the mission in Afghanistan doomed to fail. Lack of personal interaction is the main issue in internet forum. It is too easy to be non-compassionate against someone on the internet. Well, Lao-Tzu and Buddha left some traces for humanity that we are still working on to integrate in our lives. The question whether we have more peace now than a hundred or thousand years ago is difficult to say. In the end it makes it even more important to cultivate oneself.

"Vitality, Energy, Spirit", p. 233. Liu I-Ming, Commentary on Yin Convergence: "A sage said: 'If for one day you can master yourself and return to considerate behavior, the whole world will return to humanity.'

I think it is written that way so outsiders couldn't easily understand the practices and that oral transmissions were/are necessary. Sometimes I wonder how far Taoism would have gone if there were a "straight-forward" approach like the eight fold Buddhist path.

Alan Watts in his "Tao: the watercourse way" also believes that both Chuang Tzu and Lao Tzu were of the mind school and not energy/immortal school. I'm not sure whether the mind school like Completely Real Taoism (I think) or the Hsien School (Immortality) came first. CowTao: I think Taoism is a (almost) complete path if you read a bit more than Tao Te Ching. It seems that the sages were naturally at ease with the thought of death both to yourself and relatives. It is a just a transformation (returning to the void) and not an end so there is nothing to worry about. The only thing I have found missing in Taoism is the lack of focus on compassion. Regarding the mind versus energetic practices I have recently begun to wonder if it all is in the mind and whether energetic practices are absolutely necessary - maybe these are just different path to the same goal and for some people energetic practices are better in that you "get out of your head" and get better "rooted".

Yes, I understand perfectly. I own an apartment as well. That's why I wrote "part" because tax laws wary in different countries. The interest is still a part of the mortgage. So why should this be deductible? People without food and shelter, that's poor - economically. They may be rich in other ways.

Why should you be able to deduct a part of your mortgage? You bought a house/apartment and this should not concern the state. I don't like either that people are not paying taxes. However, poor people are generally socially outcast from mainstream society and lots of them are wrecks emotionally, so I don't envy them.

Of course my comment about food and a bed can be interpreted as selfish, but in the end would it not be better if people cultivated instead of worrying about economics and creating a super-efficient capitalist society? Can you really do anything about how the world goes around anyway? Welfare in all so-called welfare states includes everybody in that society including the president, ministers and also rich people in tax deductions which poor people cannot take advantage of. Work smart, not hard. In an office you only work efficiently about 4 hours a day (I read this somewhere), so why are people working more than 4 hours per day?

How can you know if you are doing the microcosmic orbit correctly? What are the feelings involved? Can you have blockages up the spine and still have vibrations in the third eye? (this has happened to me, I think).

I don't think money will collapse. In the end all countries are dependent on each other. Eg. if the US collapses China will collapse also because of much less market demand. So all countries will try to avoid collapses and chaos but of course inefficient economies means less money for you and me - which is a real problem. Some libertarians are trying to create floating cities http://seasteading.org/ which looks like a great idea to avoid big government but it has its share of problems as well.

Once I worried a lot but if you see it as a cyclic phenomenon, it is expected. What goes up comes down and maybe a taoist approach is just to watch the "flow" as it changes. Here in Denmark we will have less money to spend - however I still have food on my table and a bed to sleep in, so in the end, what's the big deal? I am slowly getting used to not to read news that often and that helps a lot to lessen worry and anxiety.

Well, I ordered the Cleary translation of the Secret of the Golden flower the day before lifeforce started this thread. Hopefully, I can benefit from the method as well.

Can anybody tell me if this standing set is more powerful in opening the meridians and gather chi than the Zhan Zhuang from "Way of Energy"? In Way of Energy there is no use of mind, you just stand there. In this set - as I tried it one time - you use intent to guide the chi - to your hands in one of the positions.

I don't think this line of thought is leading anywhere. It focuses mainly on others and their morality while you should focus on what you have the power to change. Stop watching the news and you will feel a lot better, I am sure. Start asking yourself what you really want and focus on small changes everyday. You will feel more powerful and the surrounding society will not matter much.

Better than just standing? Zhan Zhuang is working great for me

It seems Dr Bingkun Hu has a video on Primordial Qigong: http://www.drhuqigong.com/videos.htm "12 Treasures for Beginners". I wonder how the chi feeling from Primordial Qigong is different from Zhan Zhuang (which I practise)?

Anyone with a scientific background and a honest and humble attitude towards life will acknowledge that what they are seeing or knowing is very small part of life. My background is chemical engineering. Everyday we try to model something that seemingly cannot be modeled correct - even then we try. I am honest and will testify that we are sometimes working with something that seems like magic. You believe science is the best way to judge life but what happens when scientists themselves cannot explain everything, like where how was the universe created, what happened before the big bang? Everyone is delusional because what they are seeing is an interpretation of the brain. Just think of 1000 years ago and you would laugh of what people believed in. Science moves on all the time, everyday. Maybe you should try to open your mind more, be scientific about it and experiment with your own body? Science cannot explain why light sometimes behaves as particles sometimes as waves - but you choose to judge science as superior to anything else.

Proving The I Ching "proves" I Ching using mathematics. Regarding shuffling cards, professionels use machines to get a "random" sequence. I'm not sure it is totally random, depends on the implementation.

This is a good topic. Funnily enough, I was thinking of posting a thread here regarding science vs spirituality. There is a real need for scientists to explore spirituality because that's what science is about: exploring nature and document it. I have just re-started my spiritual journey and I see a lot of crap, misinformation and also blatant lies regarding qigong and internal alchemy. This needs to go away so we arrive closer to the truth to enable more people to gain enlightenment or living closer to Tao. You know people will change their habits if they get scientific proof. Also if Kundalini experiences were better documented, maybe people wouldn't lose their mind but we would be able to help them. Many so-called spirtitual people or new agers think science is bad, while it is the morality and values, i.e. the people behind that are abusing it. The scientists in the West need to learn from the Chinese and pay attention to spirituality. Maybe with the opening of China, documentation of Qi-effects etc. we can get Western scientists aboard.

Nice site and definitely needed. I am a beginner in Taoism and I think your site will be valuable in finding the Way.

Li TaoRen, I would like to know too. Seriously, there should be public information for ex-Falun Gong practioners to clean them self from this and guide them to real cultivation sources. For wanna-be practioners, the guide for real cultivation would be useful as well. Regarding Li Hongzhi, I saw a documentary on youtube where one of his partners from China said that he didn't write Zhuan Falun himself, which I think is reasonable based on his ramblings where he cannot explain high level content. Maybe he went to evil masters who created the Falun for him?

hyok, I am a beginner in Tao "cultivation". Could you tell me how you use I Ching, practically?