Marblehead

Hi All,

There is a "I Am" only BECAUSE it is dependently originated.

I know that this is a popular thought but I suggest that there is an "I am." because there are also those things that are "Not-I am".

This is true only in the Manifest though; in the Mystery it is "We are."

Be well!

I also happen to believe that there is no "ONLY" answer or solution to spiritual quests...there are many paths based on the temperament of the seeker.

Well, Darn! What a wonderful statement. I was beginning to wonder about y'all.

Be well!

--you two are misunderstanding the experience; Marblehead is referring to a different 'valley' altogether. If you're interested, you're going to need to read the passage on that subject directly from the manual, (either translation will do...)

Hi Findley,

Your point is taken. If what I referred to is not what you were speaking of then everything I said does not apply. I guess my ignorance of what you were speaking of showed. Huh?

Be well!

Sounds like a pretty interesting and valuable seminar.

The price shocked me though. Maybe I have been away from real life for too long.

Be well!

Buddhas don't experience the big suck. Which in Sanskrit is called, the Pralaya.

I ... don't ... think ... so. Hehehe. But then, I don't know, you know?

Be well!

Hi Findley,

Just a comment for consideration. The valley, total Yin, is a place of rest. If you are hearing voices that means there is still some Yang present. This would indicate (to me) that you are not all the way in yet.

Be well!

This is really interesting. The endless cycling and the multiple simultaneous dimensions according to each planes of consciousness creation...

 

The actualization of all "probabilities" of existence...a dream with out the dreamer...argh!

 

Can the endless cycling be broken? Or are we to only realize it in order to be free from it...

 

Haha, I think it is leading me to insanity... .....

Hehehe. Yes, this is a difficult subject to discuss logically. But then I consider this:

Even if it is so that all is a continuing recycling of 'stuff' it is only through the living things that the universe is able to experience itself so we are serving a useful purpose. Problem I have with this discussion is that others always want to insert a supreme experiencer (some form of God) into the equation.

Yes, eventually the cycles will end. Eventually all will return to Oneness. The Big Crunch. (I call it the Big Suck.)

(Of course, after that everything starts all over again. Hehehe.)

Be well!

Hi Qigongaddict,

Welcome!

May you enjoy your time here.

Be well!

I've very recently began to think seriously about purchasing a matching curtain and duvet set and looking on the Argos website for bargains.....I know we are not meant to be "into"material things but I cant seem to help it...should I "go with the flow" or fight against it? p.s I live with a girl and think it may be her influence..what should i do???

Do whatever she suggests. You will have more peace in your life that way.

Be well!

Yes, no intelligent design. Buddhism see's cosmos as a deeply ordered chaos, but only ordered by the beings that make up the cosmos, not by a transcendent being, or supreme cause. We are the designers, all of us together, including bugs and animals and microbes... blah, blah.

 

But yeah... yes, everything is everything and it all evolves, though not one, not two. Just endless cycling. I'm sure you were my father in one life or another. What gets interesting about Buddhism, is split mind-streams and having multiple simultaneous lives. It gets a bit tricky and can lead to insanity if one thinks about it too much.

My first thought when reading you first sentence was that you Buddhist have a lot in common with discordians sometimes.

Yes, it is the Manifest that causes the appearance of order in Tao. (I gotta' use my words sometimes.)

Indeed, two primary concepts in Taoism are "cycles" and "reversion".

I might actually be your father - I played around a lot when I was younger. Hehehe.

Well, the only way I could go along with multiple, simultanious lives is if we consider the possibility of multiple universes, which is a possibility in Taoist philosophy (according to Wayne L Wang in his "Dynamic Tao").

Actually, back during my days of searching I almost stopped with Buddhism but something inside me felt that I wasn't yet complete so I continued my search and finally rested in Tao.

Be well!

LOL! Stars don't have past lives other than that of energy in another form.

 

Because you haven't seen your past lives directly doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Past lives is not a lame idea, it's a direct experience of yogi's that is as clear as day and explains a deeper order to why things occur. To think that you are born and you die and that you are just physical, and your consciousness is a mere function of your physicality and not subtler than body is a limitation based upon a limited level of insight into one's own consciousness. To hold up the ever changing science as the new religion that will explain everything, would be silly, because science is as well as matter a function of consciousness, not the other way around. Scientists still don't know what the heck consciousness is and how it really works. Only consciousness can know consciousness, not microscopes and physical tools. They may be able to peel away layers of physical functionality, but consciousness remains ever slippery.

Hehehe. I figured I would get a significant response to that post. There are Buddhists here for at least one of y'all to have caught my comment.

You are exactly correct. I cannot prove that I have had no prior human or other animal lives. Nor can I prove that there is not some caucasian-looking old man sitting in some throne upon high observing everything we humans do and preparing us for judgement.

Nor can I prove that fairies don't exist.

BTW The bolding above is mine - I wanted to highlight what you said.

Yes, there is much more to it than just being born, living, and then dying. However, ...

to suggest that my concsiousness lives on after I die is a little too much for me. Or even the thought that my soul or spirit lives on after I die and it is placed into some new-born at birth is a little too much for me to handle.

I won't argue about the ignorance of the scientists because I really do understand that there is so much about the universe and even of man that is still not understood. But, what is understood should be acknowledged by all else we are not only wishing to remain ignorant but we are also showing our stupidity for holding to disproven answers to questions. That is the main thing that bugs me about the people who support Intelligent Design. Not only have they chosen to remain ignorant but they are being stupid in trying to justify their ignorance.

Now, if you wish to discuss the concept that "Everything that is, is, always has been, and always will be although it takes different form over time" I would be happy to discuss this concept from that point of view.

Be well!

Well, now that we all have totally misunderstood one another, What's Next?

Listening without prejudice?

Be well!

That's not the kind of suffering I am referring to! I am referring to the suffering that is directly caused by pain even if people don't pity themselves. It can be decoupled with enough effort.

 

I'm claiming you can even disconnect the suffering of suffocation from the pain of suffocation, and block the desire to breathe while still feeling the effects of oxygen deprivation, though it is more difficult than other kinds of pain.

Hi YawningMind,

You know, we are saying almost the same thing except that we view the concepts of 'pain' and 'suffering' differently.

In my mind, pain is physical, suffering is psychological. Holding one's breath is not suffering as they are doing this knowingly and willingly - no suffering, only pain (resulting while trying to prevent the body from performing its natural processes).

One never has to suffer, never ever. What you mentioned in your first post touches on this. One will experience pain, however. You are walking barefoot and smack you toe against some hard object. Ouch!!!!! Pain!!!!! Am I going to suffer psychologically because of my inattention to where I was walking? I don't think so. Will I feel the pain for a while? Sure. Will I forget about it over time? Of course. (Unless the pain doesn't stop or gets worse which would indicate that I had broken it then I would go see my doctor.) (Actually, for that I wouldn't go to the doctor because all they will do is tell you to keep off of it for a while and give you pain pills. I don't use pain pills under normal conditions and I already know how to sit down and stay off my feet for a while.)

But, to speak directly to your initial premise, yes, we can control our pain through mental practices. Different practices work better for some than for others. We find what works for us and use it.

Be Well!

I love seeing two Buddhist disagree. It is so non-Buddhist. Hehehe.

Be well!

It might be a little more complicated than that. Let's say you close your mouth and wrinkle your nose (or close it with your fingers) so you can't breathe. Try sitting like that for a few minutes. You will want to open your mouth because you are suffering from lack of air. I don't think simply analyzing it is enough in this case. In order to defeat this sensation, you have to completely clear your mind and accept the state of suffering you experience It's a little harder than conquering most kinds of physical pain in my opinion, though personally I got a little spooked and took a breath anyways after I managed to conquer this one. Just because I don't actually want to suffocate myself.

In your above example there is only pain, no suffering. You have tried to prevent natural operations of your body - there is something wrong - you feel pain.

Yes, we can hold our breath for only a certain amount of time, after that limit is reached our instincts overpower our conscious efferts and we will be forced to take a breath.

I agree with you - controlling suffering is a lot harder than controlling pain is. Pain is physical; suffering is psychological.

Sure, but the suffering still exists after merely realizing. We still have to look into it more to try and rid ourselves of it.

That's a deeper aspect of the subject and I didn't speak to it in my post. I agree with you, if we have allowed ourself to suffer it is difficult to eliminate the suffering. Afterall, feeling sorry for ourself is soooo self-gratifying.

If your mind can conquer itself, then it is a lot better than medication. No side effects, no withdrawal, no medical bills. Of course it is a lot harder, but that is why I brought it up.

I totally agree with you. Of course, the first thing we need do is attend to the "cause" of the pain - there is something wrong, it needs to be fixed. The pain will continue during the healing process. Controlling the mind can reduce and even eliminate the pain. Sometimes, however, the pain is too great so we should use medications until the pain is manageable mentally.

I broke my hip a few years ago and I can tell you this, during the first three days I never would have been able to manage the pain without the assistance of medication. But as soon as I thought I could manage it I made the medics take me off the morphine and I took nothing after that.

Be well!

Excellent subject YawningMind.

Pain and suffering. Pain is physical, suffering is mental.

Pain is good. Okay, hold on. Let me explain.

Pain is an idicator that there is something worng with the body. Pain allows us to become aware that there is something wrong so that we can take action to correct what is wrong. From this point I will agree with you in what you said in your initial post regarding the reduction of percieved pain (pain tolerance) so that it will not cause suffering.

Suffering, on the other hand is a result of our feeling sorry for ourself for being in pain. If we understand that pain is good there is no reason to suffer. Sure, you will still have the pain. Hehehe. But there are ways to reduce the pain even if one needs to use medications to do it.

Be well!

I wish to speak - so I will. (Exercising my free will, you know.)

Specifically to the concept of cause and effect.

Many things have happened to me during my lifetime that I had absolutely no control over. But they happened none-the-less. I do not see where anyone can suggest that this is because some supposed 'other life' I had is paying me back. Personally, I think this is very lame.

Why did the star explode? Oh, it did something naughty in a previous life. That's BS!!! It was a direct result of cause and effect (the laws of physics - the processes of Nature - Tzujan).

Regarding the deformed newborns, it is not because of some evil they performed in some previos life, the cause can be directly identified using the scientific method of inverstigation for almost every occurance.

Karma is a term that is very misused. In many forms it is used just as the term 'miracle' is used in Western thought. There ain't no miracles either! Cause and effect rule - science has replaced the terms 'miracle' and 'karma' (as it is used to replace the concept of cause and effect.

As we speak of things today we must speak with the knowledge that is available today. Science (observation as the early Taoists taught) today answers many more questions today than it did 2 or 3 thousand years ago. Don't hold tenaciously to old invalidated misunderstandings.

Be well!

Hi Ya Mu,

Nice post.

Hi White Tiger,

Excuse me for not fully comprehending what you speaking of. Could you define what you call the ego. Not to be judgmental or anything but we are talking about false ego compared to a healthy ego to survive in daily life right?

I agree with you. Chuang Tzu told us to lessen our ego, not to try to eliminate it. We need ego for self survival. The concept is spoken of differently when you are speaking from the Buddhist perspective than it is from the Taoist perspective.

Be well!

Hi Oldman,

Nice post.

Okay, I was brought back here so I will make one additional comment to Resonance's post.

I feel 'not knowing' is fine.

I totally agree. However, I would like to point out that this is true as long as one understands that they do not know. When one 'does not know' but thinks they do is a flaw.

Be well!

Hi Oldman,

Welcome!

May you enjoy your time here.

Yes, I wish you luck in getting settled down here and able to post and do all the other neat thing of the board.

Be well!

That was interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Be well!

Hey Mikaelz!

That's a pretty fired-up machine you have there for being a laptop.

My machine is 1 1/2 years old and I installed Vista on it as soon as I got home. And honestly, I have never had a crash because of Vista. Microsoft upgraded my IE to version 8 a few weeks ago and I have one issue with it but maybe that will be resolved soon.

My Media Player looks exactly like yours (I keep it current with the updates).

Have fun with the new toy.

Oh! Karma made your fan start working properly again, it wasn't Windows.

Be well!

However please do not try and fallaciously assert that Taoism is a philosophy and not a religion and that the religious aspects of Taoism were in some way a denigration of the philosophy. Unless of course you can provide irrevocable proof from authentic sources to prove your statements. I am always willing to adjust my perspective in the presence of conclusive evidence and so far all I have seen is personal opinions.

Ah! Now I see what twisted your string. I dearly do apologize if you got the impression that I was trying to denigrate the Taoist Religion. I honestly never meant for anyone to get the impression that I was trying to do that.

I will be one of the first people to stand up and support the right of anyone to choose whatever religion they wish to follow or if they wish to follow none. (I do not support the teaching of religion in our public schools though. I had to include that.)

I was arguing my own personal experience and preference and opinion. I would never knowingly even try to convert anyone from one philosophy or religion to another.

I do not preach Taoism to people I meet. If they bring up the subject of religion I will mention my Taoist belief - if they wish to discuss religion I will talk with them but I will speak from my own perspective.

I have no intention of trying to change anyone's mind here, least of all a good discussion partner like you. I can't even say what might be right for another person - maybe leaving, say, Christianity and becoming an Atheistic Taoist like myself would be the worst thing that could happen to certain individuals.

We each must find our own path.

But, in a generalized discussion, all I can do is speak from my point of view; I can't speak from anyone else's viewpoint, just as I cannot walk in another man's shoes.

Do you understand me a little better now?

Be well!

Hi V.,

We've experienced more change as a global humanity within 1 hundred years than we have in thousands upon thousands of years put together. There has been change, but not nearly as intense as recently I think.

Indeed. It is obvious (in my mind) that the NAs have not be able to adapt to the rapid changes that the Europeans brought with them to the New World.

It would be interesting to see what the effects of all this rapid changing of humanity will be, say, 500 to 1,000 years from now. (I'll miss that show, I guess.)

Be well!