Marblehead

Hi Xabir2005, Indeed. This is a key difference between the two. As long as we have a body and consciousness we will continue, at some level, to remain in the Manifest (the physical). We cannot excape the physical. Without the physical there is no consciousness so there is no reason for life. Without hearing there is no beautiful music hear; without seeing there is no beautiful rose to see. I do agree that manifestation is spontaneous - no reason, no purpose, no great goals to accomplish. However, I suggest that it is the experience of the manifest that is all-important. That's what life is all about. I almost agree with your second paragraph except that some of your words carry connotations that are not acceptable to me but that's just my personal opinion. Yes, I can imagine in my mind a point prior to the big bang where nothing existed - even to the short-term past to where "I" did not exist. I can even imagine a point of time when "I" will no longer exist. But this is speaking only to the manifest. Everything that "I" am existed prior to there being a "me" and everything that "I" am will exist after "I" no longer am. So, basically, our consciousness of 'self' is attained in the Manifest. Our understanding of 'no-self' is also attained in the Manifest. 'No-self' is realized in the Mystery. But we can't stay there else there will be no further attainment. (Sorry, that [attainment] was the best word for me to use to this point.) Be well!

Well, just to pump the ego of you two individuals, my IQ is rather low but I do try to use logic in everthing I say. Sometime I fail at that because, hey, I have a low IQ. But my heart is big. I am still watching for the opportunity to discuss something with Ralis. Be well! Is that a trick question? Hehehe. Of course I agree with you. (But don't let that go to your head.) That is one of the reasons we all have our own illusions and delusions. Some people are even limited to the 2 dimentional level as describe in Plato's cave. The reasons for the differences are very muliple and complex. So much so that there is no standard theory for it. No only perception and experiences apply but our perceptions of our experiences alter our understanding. But we must keep on trying. Be well!

Thanks. I would be interested in seeing other input on this subject. Anyone? Be well!

Very nice post ~jK~. Thanks for sharing. Be well!

Hi Blissmusic, You know what? That was probably the hardest lesson for me to learn. I had always felt that I could overpower and destroy these negative emotions. It was a recurring fight. What helped me out a few years back was a little book titled "When Things Fall Apart" by Pema Chodron. Now I am tippy-toeing into Native American Spirituality and that helps as well. Thanks for sharing your work! Be well!

Well, I don't recall ever feeling any emotional sensation in my liver or middle toe of my left foot. (Just messing.) Hey! Hey! Now that second question could end up being a serious discussion. I am limited in my knowledge of this subject but I will do what I can. It is my opinion (I have no scientific fact to back it up) that not only do we have a brain but that we also have a mind which includes the brain and all our other receptors. I phrased it that way because this is the only way I can explain the concepts of inspiration and deja vu. This, in my opinion, has to do with the energy of universal Chi (what I feel science is now referring to as 'dark energy'). It has been said by some that there is knowledge in energy. So, if this 'dark energy' contains knowledge when it does permiate my physical essence wouldn't it be possible for some of this knowledge to be recieved and interpretted by my personal Chi? Well, when I see a really beautiful, sexy female there are emotions displayed in one of my other 'vitals' but that's as far as I can go with that. However, I know there are many members here who have great knowledge on these other aspects of the subject. I think this is mostly the area of alchemy and I am ignorant of the subject. Be well!

(It's actually more complicated than this explanation) Really??? Who wooda' noed? Matter had to go through it's evolution before it could become ready to host sentient consciousness which was existing in subtler, less dense realms even prier to the big bang of this physical universe. That's an interesting thought. Maybe I'll think about it. Ah, you know I meant free from the body, not from from the body... good. I had to go back and correct that. Hey, I make lots of typos. Most I don't even go back to correct as I figure the readers will understand what I am saying. Be well!

Yes. That is true. This would be the Mystery. It is empty of 'things' but yet it is full of 'potential' all things. It is out of wu (the Mystery) that yo (the Manifest) emerged. Looking at it from a comical point of view, wu is the trash can where all the used up matter goes to be recycled. Be well!

Hi Vajrahridaya, Thus there is no difference between attending to the body and being from from the body. Yes, that is what I would call having one foot in each state (of awareness). Kinda' like looking at yourself through someone else's eyes. Be well!

Hi Brian, Sounds good to me too. But I think it is more at the brain sends signals to mainly the heart and lungs and it is there that we actually 'feel' our emotions. But I really like the thought of all my cells loving all the others. Be well!

AAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! People!! The moon exists whether Vajrahridaya sees it or not. If you don't believe me just look up in the sky when the meteorologists say it is going to be visible in your area during such and such a time. Matter existed for over 14 billion years before there were any humans on Earth. (Of course, we don't know yet if there are any conscious beings on planets other than Earth.) Be well! (And don't forget to breathe.)

There is no such thing as selfless flow in yo (the Manifest). This is experienced only in wu (the Mystery). Yes, it is true that many Taoists do live with one foot in yo and the other in wu. However, the selfless flow will never happen when we are in any aspect of yo because we will naturally (There! I said it for you.) try to swim if we feel we are sinking. It is only the rare Sage who can attain total wu for any length of time (more than a couple minutes). Yes, there are Buddhist who can do this too (I am sure they call it something else). But we must attain to our bodily functions and this can be done only in the yo state. However, the slant toward Buddhist thought entered before your first post so I wasn't pointing to you (nor to the moon either). Be well! Edit to add. Yes, you entered after someone (Leon?) mentioned Buddhism as a means to contrast a thought. Presonally, I don't mind including the Buddhist perspective. I just feel that we should point out that this (whatever) is a Taoist concept and that (whatever) is a Buddhist concept.

What a nice comment. Thank you. And I must say that you have been likewise kind. This really is important when we know that we will have differences where there is little room for compromise. Okay. Back to my attack mode. Be well!

It is my observation that this discussion has turned suspiciously Buddhist. We should not confuse the two philosophies. Just my opinion. Be well!

Well, I am gald that someone (2 actually) has been keeping Vajrahridaya occupied while I was gone. Be well Y'all!

Sure. Why not? You do, afterall, need to know that you are you and not somebody else. Be well!

Hi Leon, Let's see what I can do here. Is Tao a Living Organism? IMO, Yes. There are actually many scientists who consider the universe to be a living organism Tao/Dao on the other hand, seems that it could go into any direction one chooses. Is this a correct assumption? Yes again. Tao is compatible with almost any belief system (Hate cults would be one exception, I think.) Personally, it seems that Tao is non-existing, but at the same time, it is everywhere and is everything. It is only in its manifest state that Tao is observeable. All the other aspects of Tao we cannot define even though we can speak of some of its assumed characteristics. Be well!

Simple wisdom. Thanks Scotty! Be well!

Actually, I just started using that tag when I joined this forum. At the time I was listening to a music group called Seatrain that was formed in Marblehead, Mass. and I do have a lot of marbles in two display areas of one of my fish ponds. Be well!

Now see? There you go talking about reincarnation and karma, two concepts that I do not hold to so it is really impossible for me to discuss them. And if these long-lived gods were the first-borns who supposedly taught the new reincarnated humans how to live properly either they were very ignorant or they did a very poor job of showing us the way. Be well!

Hehehe. Actually, no one has ever said it to me face to face. Be well!

Hi again, Actually, philosophical Taoists (me, at least) do not believe that the mind stream lives on after death of the body. It is our personal Chi (and all other essence of what I am) that lives on, but Marblehead will no longer exist in any form. When this body of mine dies Marblehead will no longer be. His essence will become something else (maybe) at some other point in time (time period unknown). Yes, it is my understanding that I am supposed to live my life to its fullest potential. Early death in not Tao. Therefore I will do everything I can to prolong my life so that I may add as much as possible to the experiences of Tao. Be well! As I stated in that other thread, crop circles and gods are man-made concepts. They do not exist naturally in the universe. When man is gone these will no longer exist. Be well! It is my understanding that change is the only constant in the universe. All things, all non-things including Tao are subject to this process. Be well! Hehehe. You were sufficiently clear. I was just picking on you. I don't hold to the concept of reincarnation so I really cannot discuss the subject. Transmutation is the word I use. You were very correct in your expectations. Be well! That is one of the many beauties of Taoist philosophy. A Christian can be a philosophical Taoist. Many Buddhists are. (Hey, you were drawn to this site!) Philosophical Taoism has no dogma therefore it is never in conflict with any of the dogma of any of the religious belief systems. Be well!

No, No, No, No, NO. And I will say it once again just to make sure it is understood: NO! My words and thought: "Everything that is, is, always has been, and always will be. Things just take different form over time." The cause is Tzujan. I know nothing about 'first cause'. The effect is the changes that Tao expresses. Be well!

Hi Vajrahridaya, So is the Tao just the continual process of recycling infinite cosmoses with no static "I" ness or beginning? Exactly that, in my understanding. Buddhism explains how this current universe came into existence based upon the end of the previous universe. There is no primary cause at all... it's just a cycle of endless causes and conditions, from formless multiplicity to form filled multiplicity back to formless multiplicity over and over again. You just expressed my Taoist understanding except that we don't try to explain it because we weren't there to observe the event. BTW Your rationale for the existence of a god (first cause) is faulty, IMO. Be well!

Please don't feel I was looking down. I was only making fun. I sometimes make fun of myself for no other purpose than to cause someone to laugh or smile. Oh, my philosophy is very dynamic. I even change my mind now and then. Just watch, you'll see. (I actually agree with Buddhists more often than I disagree. I am just setting a standard at the moment so that my willingness to bend with the winds can be observed.) Be well!