Marblehead

I almost feel sad for the mild-mannered Taoist and others here who are trying to learn something about Taoism when they feel they are being overwhelmed by the aggressive Buddhists here. It is Taoist tradition to reject none. To reject others would present ourselves as thinking that we are better than others. This would not be Tao. On the other hand, it is not fair for anyone to corrupt a Taoist discussion solely for the purpose of advancing their own agenda. This would be very not-Tao and even not-Buddhist. So all I will say (and I think I have already said it once) is that I think it is only fair that if a subject of Taoist philosophy or religion is being discussed and a not Taoist wishes to engage the discussion that they at least mention the fact that what they are presenting is their own belief system's view on the subject so not to cause anyone to believe that Buddhist doctrine is Taoism. Be well!

Apparently they have been smoking way too much pot and popping way too many pills. If it is so that the Self continues after the body dies I would really like to talk with one of them. The seers you speak of are obviously blind to physical reality. It sounds so much like Greek mythology. Thinking is a function of the brain. Period. The mind is a receptor only. There is no self without a functioning brain. That is science. Wrong. It is only when you are 100% immersed in wu that there is no duality within your mind. And then, if you ever attain 100% wu you have lost your mind. (I think some Buddhists have attained 100% wu.) Yin and Yang (the polarities of Chi) effect everything in the Manifest and the Mystery. It is the effect of Chi on the Mystery that creates the Manifest. Chi (Yin and Yang) is a component of Tao. All is Tao. Everything! Everything, every event, every phenomenon, everything is subject to the laws of Nature. Nothing, no-thing exists or comes into existence on its own accord. The process of cause and effect applies to everything and every non-thing in the universe. Even the processes of Tao are in accordance with Tzujan. Self does not exist without a body and a functioning brain. Self being conscious self-recognition. No, there is no such thing as a body being born and then some pre-existing Self being thrown into the body. That is poppy-cock; ancient mythology. How can one look at the physical world, read up on new scientific facts as they are acquired and still believe something like that? And besides, it is totally illogical. It is like saying that 1 plus 1 equals three. No, I have not mistaken the limited identity for the Self. I am being realistic. I am considering the obvious. I am considering what the sciences know about life and human life in particular. What you have described would be supernatural. There is no such thing as a supernatural event. Never has been, never will be. And please don't come back and tell me that you remember such and such an event that happened to you in a previous life. If you do that I will have to ask management to create a SyFi forum here so that stuff like that can be discussed. Regardless of what our belief system is we need to stay with what is real and verifiable else we are just fooling ourself and causing others confusion. There is no such thing as magic - it is illusion. There are no such thing as ghosts - that is delusion. Be well!

Of course I was joking. Actually, that is from a story told by Chuang Tzu to emphasize a point with a tale of three elderly friends discussing what might become of them after they die. Be well! You Buddhists sure have some fantastic imaginations. Actually, Dr. Wang, while not directly suggesting it, left open the possibility for parallel universes in his introduction to his translation of the Tao Te Ching "Dynamic Tao". Be well!

Hi All, I think, therefore I am. Yeah, I know. Somebody else said that a few years ago. I feel my 'self' is my unconsciousness, soul and spirit, if you will. However, without this manifest body there would be no 'self' would there? Be well!

Yeah, well, like I said, I am not imprisoned so I need no liberation and to the best of my knowledge I do not need saving for any catastrophe. Surely my creator knows what is best for me. Why should I assume to know better? You might have your info confused here. The most recent revelation in this regard that I am aware of is concerning meteors in our solar system that are older than our sun. These are likely debris from the star that exploded allowing for the creation our sun and solar system. But, allowing for a fudge factor, there may well have been some debris left over from the previous universe that was not consumed by the giant black hole that created this present universe. Science would have to be able to accurately date the material to an age greater than 13.7 billion years though. Be well!

Hi Xabir2005, Okay. Let me start of by saying that we are really not that far apart as to our understanding. It is just that you use such funny words at times. However, this is not one of the areas where we agree. Hehehe. If what you say is true there would be no reason for the Manifest at all. I do agree that all arises spontaneously (but, consistent with the processes of Nature which are the guideposts for the Manifest) because of the process of cause and effect. Well, okay, almost consistently - there are variances from the norm. (But even this is within the realm of the natural.) Thing is, there is no 'sound' if there is no hearer. Yes, there are vibrational waves but no sound. The same with sight - there is no image if there is no receptor, only variations of the frequency of light waves. Therefore I suggest that the Manifest is very important as it is through the Manifest that Tao experiences itself. PS You will never convince me that "I" do not exist. Oh! This is another area where we don't agree. Hehehe. Chuang Tzu expressed it very well in the "Butterfly Dream". There is a state of wu where one becomes a non-descript observer and one may even see themself in the scene. But everything that is seen is of the Manifest nature. I will agree with you that the Mystery is non-descriptive. And that is because the Mystery is "potential", it is not yet Manifested. Okay. I cannot become bamboo nor can I become a pine tree. I may become either of those after this manifestation. I may have been those prior to this manifestation. I do agree that all Manifest eminates from the same source - the Mystery. But the purpose, in my mind, for the Manifest is so that Tao can have its various experiences. Everything is dynamic except perhaps Tzujan. But at this point in time I am one of the seers, one of the hearers, one of the feelers, physical and emotional, etc. And a pine tree is a pine tree. It cannot be me in this , its current manifestation. Yes, the tree can be cut down and the timber used to build a house and the cuttings used to make a fire. This is the transmutation of things. In this case man caused the transmutation but over time transmutation would have none-the-less taken place. I just can't imagine myselfg being a bamboo back-scratcher. Sorry. Taoist use words like that sometimes too. Except that they are making reference to one looking inside theirself, not trying to se themself as something else. Yes, we all must stand naked one day. And we will have to say, "This is what I have become." I do like your "... only a naked manifest awareness is present". (I will probably use it at some point in the future.) Be well!

Okay, I am goig to respond to this before reading the next post - it looked like someone was beating me up. Hehehe. You speak of levels and I speak of states. I actually don't see any significant differences between the two philosophies with this subject. Welcome to my world, the world of Tao! But we Taoists need no liberating, and we especially don't need to be saved. Yeah, Yeah. We both know that but none of it can be proved. It is only supposition. Totally agree. It is the individual who decides if they are going to put 100% of themselves in the Manifest or find some comfortable position between the two. I prefer a nice harmony; the ups and downs; the wonderous variations of my emotions; letting my Yany hang out and then getting slapped aside the head by my Yin. Be well!

Well, let's don't get too intimate. Your lady-friend might start wondering about you. Be well!

Thanks Leon. Be well!

Wait! Please go back and read my post again. Yes, there were some of the ancient Taoists who did that but they were a rare breed. The normal Taoist Sage was always willing to help others. Be well!

Yep. I have been there and done that. That is why I have a little bit of a feel of where you are coming from. I hope you continue being active here but whatever decisions you make concerning your journey I wish you the best. Be well!

Regretfully I have to agree with you on this point. Yes, we will never-mind that. Be well!

Hi Positiverep, I can't offer anything to your question but I can offer a welcome to you to the forum. I am sure someone will come along to address your question. Be well!

Hehehe. Be well!

Hi Nac, Funny. No, I won't be joining any Buddhist forums. I'll take your word for it. Be well!

Hi Magitek, Agree. I don't know your age or where you are along your journey so I will make a general comment. There are time when we go into overload when we begin walking a new path of our journey. Sometimes is is best to just stop and let the information settle. So we can pick up another interest for a while and let the philosophical information naturally sort itself out in our brain. When the thought start returning on their own during our daily activities we can sort through those thoughts and hold to the ones that are useful and discard the rest. I will suggest though that you have made progress because you are questioning and doubting. Continue your journey and find the real you. It is there, I promise. (I don't make promises lightly.) Be well!

Hi Wtm, Just to comment on myself. I have turned to Native North American spirituality for that part of my life. I feel is it the most compatible with my Taoist beliefs than any other form of spirituality out there. Be well!

Damn! I have to agree with something a Buddhist said. Be well!

My opinion. Spirituality is real for each and every one of us. Some choose to ignore it, others hold it closely in the conscious mind. Spirituality lies in our sub(un)conscious mind. It includes all those things we know that we thought we didn't know. It is the source of all inspiration/intuition. No, I cannot prove what I just said. But it has been proven that we have an unconscious mind. Be well!

Hi Magitek, I disagree with you. So there!!! Hehehe. First, you do have words and thoughts to share with others that will cause them thoughts and that is a good thing. Secondly, Taoist philosophy have everything to do with real life and solving our everyday problems. There is so much to be learned and shared with others about everyday life while discussing philosophies and even religions. If nothing else the discussions can help you clarify your own thoughts and beliefs and be guideposts for you during your journey. Be well!

Okay. Let's look at this chapter in its entirity. (Henricks translation) Chapter 56 1. Those who know don't talk about it; those who talk don't know it. 2. He blocks up his holes, 3. Closes his doors, 4. Softens the glare, 5. Settles the dust, 6. Files down the sharp edges, 7. And unties the tangles. 8. This is called Profound Union. 9. Therefore, there is no way to get intimate with him, 10. But there is also no way to shun him. 11. There is no way to benefit him, 12. But there is also no way to harm him. 13. There is no way to ennoble him, 14. But there is also no way to debase him. 15. For this very reason he's the noblest thing in the world. The chapter is speaking to the attributes of a Sage. A Sage cannot explain how one becomes a Sage so he/she does not talk about it. Those who talk about it really have not attained Sagehood. The "Profound Union" is the attainment of wu while still in yo. The Sage speaks (teaches) through his/her actions/non-actions. Yes, they do give guidance as far as pointing the student in the proper direction but they would never say something like, "You will become a Sage if you do such and such.) Be well!

So what the hell did you guys do with my Lord, the God of Taoism? Seems to me we need to find her and put her back on her throne. The Valley Spirit never dies; It is called the Mysterious Female. The Mysterious Female is the gate To the roots of Heaven and Earth. (Sorry, although from the TTC, credit to the translator is not possible but acknowledged.) Be well!

Oh, poppycock. The only ghost I believe in is Casper The Friendly Ghost. Be well! Now see! There really is logical intelligence in Buddhism. Be well! Hey Nac! lol you can't get away from doctrine. Oh yes I can. Watch me! Yes you can. But it will be difficult if you are not a philosophical Taoist. Be well!

I think there will always be members who never post. Some will join and lurk for while then never come back. Others will just lurk but never make comment as they feel they have nothing to add to the discussion. That's the beauty of free will Hehehe. I agree that everything should remain as is because there truely is a lot of excellent information is some of the threads that have died. I am fairly active here but there are some threads I don't ever read because I do not have interest in the subject matter. But I understand that there are others who do have interest in them so it is all good. Be well!