TexasNative

What is the point?

FORGIVENESS

Forgiveness may be considered simply in terms of the person who forgives including forgiving themselves.

To forgive someone is to forswear resentment, anger, or other reactions to their having done something that justifies such responses. The philosophical problem is that this is apparently treating them better than they deserve; but how can it be a requirement, or even be permissible, to treat someone in any other way than as they deserve?

The advice of Augustine, that we hate the sin but not the sinner also suggests an objective or impersonal attitude towards the sinner, as if the character of the agent is only accidentally connected with the hatefulness of his or her actions, and it has been argued, notably by Strawson, that this objective stance is inconsistent with full recognition of the personhood of others.

name='Scotty' date='Aug 23 2009, 03:37 PM' post='137392']

I don't really want TexasNative to go back and prove it to me...what a waste of time.

Some of us are aware of when we engage in drama.

You son have no recollection of having done so many times.

['Scotty' date=Aug 23 2009, 01:00 PM' post='137369]

 

This flip flopping you're accusing me of only happened once...so it wasn't "back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, etc".

There are tons of posts to prove you flipped flopped back and forth and even called what Max was doing as being irresponsible.

You whined, and it was okay and reasonable.

Chris heard that I was possibly bad mouthing Kunlun, and asked me what was wrong. I told him that I was having physical health issues, and so him and Max cleared up the issue for me by simply explaining some things.

It was easy then for you to stop whining and move on once Chris and Max helped and cleared up a couple of things was it? Now ain't that a surprise. I am truly happy for you Scotty, some of us weren't so lucky so please forgive us and allow us to take a little more time before we move on.

Mantra68

post Jul 26 2009, 06:33 PM

Post #106

 

Satori is definitely his own guy. He doesn't claim to represent anything other than himself. He is "school free" and "teacher-free" these days, having found his truth within.

 

He knows Max's stuff as well as anyone, but he is one of those people who flat out tells you like it is.

 

He has verbally slapped me a couple of times and while it may have angered me at the time, I realized later that he was dead-on correct.

 

It might sound odd to say, but he is quite accomplished in his understanding of the Tao and is considered more like a contraire or wrathfully compassionate spirit in his slicing-through-the-bullsh*t approach.

 

He does have everybody's best interest at heart believe it or not.

I know I behave like a real ass sometimes but the difference is I always know when I'm doing it.

Max is not teaching anymore but how many instructors and facilitators are? None of this will get to them either, and you said you won't be teaching so I have no other issues with you Chris.

What do you care now if I rant, rave or whine?

You are no longer responsible right?

Whining may "bring balance to the force" , but it does not bring inner balance...which is a goal of spiritual practices, right?

You would know Scotty because this little bit I wrote was about you:

"some can't make up their minds first loving it and voicing praise, then hating it and speaking out against it and moving onto other practices, then coming back to it, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth."

It is up to him to not create unnessesary circumstances in the first place. It is up to him to hold himself accountable - it is up to him to "change the way he does things" if the way he is doing them is creating problems.

 

It is to easy to say to yourself as a teacher when the students have difficulties "well they just don't get it" (not that he has said this). This is lazy thinking. It is an excuse to not take responsibility. Now that is not to say that after a long hard look, some serious review of apporaches that this is the right answer because it just might be - after all some people just don't get it. But to take this stance as a way not dealing with it is simplly wrong.

 

Most students which have had problems are not going to be able communicate in a way which will bring clarity to the teacher - it is up to the teacher to bridge that gap and that can only occur after accepting that they just might be doing something wrong.

 

To say "it is pointless, serves no purpose" is exactly the attitude I am talking about - hands in air - shrug the shoulders "nothing I can do about it". It is lazy thinking.

 

Do I think Max is lazy? No. Do I think he is not aware of the interpersonal dynamics which lead to these dramas? Depends on the day. Do I think he is not aware? No. So why does it keep happening? Commitment - simply not commited to deal with it.

 

To say that people knew they where not getting a teacher because he said "I am not a teacher" does not negate the fact that he has taken on that role. Saying "I'm just shareing - I'm not a teacher" is a means to get out of being responsible for the role - to rationalize the lack of commitment. I did that too - gave lectures; made sure people where fully aware of my limitations - simply shared as a "friend that is simply a step or two further down the path". It is a convenient place - but it does not get out of the impact you are having on others lives - both positive and negative. I am sure he has received many thanks and much gratitude for the many poeple who have benefited - if you take the gratitude then you gotta take the critizism too... again if the teachings are of non-duality then both come hand in hand. With great highs there are great lows.

 

I was refering more to this type of outcome.

 

************************************

I have had some experience with this. My mother, whom all my life was always somewhat very emotional and not always rational... I introduced to a teacher of mine. I was learning allot about mind and the mind/emotion relationship from some esoteric Tibetan practices and found myself coaching my mother through her regular emotional tidal waves. I thought I was over stepping my bounds, as I was still in my infancy with it all. I felt an introduction to my teacher was appropriate and requested if he would talk with my mother. He agreed and she began studying the same techniques. Over the following few years I watched her on one hand gain some substantial "sidhas" and on the other hand seen her emotional extremes being justified by these new abilities. Eventually my teacher couldn't deal with her outbursts and episodes and refused to communicate with her. Needless to say this aggravated the situation more.

 

In the end she had extreme hallucinations of all sorts. My family was doing their best to try to help her through - although she denied that there was a problem. At one point she had a brief "moment of lucidity" and said "I think there is something wrong with me" at which point my sister drove her directly to the hospital. For weeks they watched her move through 5 distinct "personalities" (and identified up to 16 in total). She would scream out that the doctors where raping her in the night. Prior to that she felt the whole town she lived in where conspiring against her. There was problems with the police - claims my father was trying to kill her - she attempted to kidnap my neice - as she felt her daughter (the mother) was dangerous. It was not pleasant - it was extreme and lasted for years before she got help. She is now medicated - living on disability - has the mind of a 12 years old girl.

 

It seems to me that as we do our practices we are stimulating and activating areas of the brain - which if we have not "healed" our physical and emotional issues - these activated areas will turn against us on many levels. As I watched her go through this she continually avoided looking at the emotions which rose - she would blame others, make excuses, rationalise away severe behaviour as enlighten awareness - rather than "let it go", remain in the center, surrender. And do this added more and more pressure against the ego which eventually broke.

 

I believe this path is broken into two areas - two primary intentions. For some it is to heal, for others to evolve. To evolve we need to heal first. If we push forward to evolve and ignore healing then this can happen.

 

At the end of the end of the day we are training the mind - and clearing the way for the mind (energetically) for the mind to be able to distinguish the ego from consciousness (ego as in the boundaries of our reality, constructed from deeply held belief- not the personality which is one object within the boundaries of ego) . This is not an easy task. Now add in physical problem with the brain (whether genetic, from prolonged situational stress, or an emotional injury which has festered for years). We then need to be able to distinguish consciousness from ego from illness - a nearly impossible task.

 

These distinctions are important. The brain is partly a sensory organ. It senses; not light, touch or sound, but existence. And as the brain opens up, the processes for processing sensory data (like light, touch, sound) are used in conjunction to reconstruct awareness of objects which exist beyond the physical senses. If there are underlying intentions which we are not aware of then as the brain opens - these underlying intentions, illness begin to express themselves in ways where the person is unable to ever distinguish what is of the illness and what is of awareness.

 

This lack of distinction is not just extraordinary but very mundane as well - I could have a conversation with my mother and moments later she would be talking about things in the conversation which never happened - and I mean seconds. I would watch a topic come up which I knew would be a sore spot for her and see a palpable shift in her face and demeanour and she would fly off into some mystical diatribe about angels and ascended masters and everything these "masters" where telling her was what she needed to protect herself from the topic. It was/is heartbreaking.

 

In the end the teacher was talking about breathing energy directly to sustain the body and only needing a little bit of food and tea everyday to stay alive. Because of her new found skills my mother felt she no longer needed to eat or sleep very often and after three years of eating only toast & tea, once a day she suffered a serious protein malnutrition problem which caused brain damage. And this lead to more extreme delusions and hallucinations.

 

Truth is meditation experts are not psychiatrists - are not versed in diagnosing mental illness and the mistake I made was sending her to a person which did not have the clarity, skill or awareness to be able to tell what was really going on with her - I sent her to a lama when I should have sent her to a doctor. And when these delusion would rise the teacher would encourage it not knowing what was happening underneath it all. The catchy point was - she had developed some abilities and I saw some fairly amazing things happen - but never with clarity. Even if there was some awareness there- it was always distorted by these underlying issues. Because I knew her and her history I could sometimes tell the difference. I assumed the teacher, with all of his acquired skills would see this better than I would - I was wrong.

 

********************************

 

Is Max responsible for my Mom's illness? No. She was ill before. Did he have a negative impact on it. Yes. My mother twisted many of Max's words to the will of her illness. But to shrug it off and say " I can't control how people take my words" simply does not cut it when you can "plug the holes". There is way too much latitude a mind can take with the way these teachings are given - and then add on top of it absence of any interaction then of course some people are going to spin out of control with it. Ask youself why a teacher wouldn't modify the approach to avoid the dramas and potential damages this latitude allows for. If there is something that can be done about it then it should be done - to not do it is irresponsible. To state this does serve a purpose - the purpose is not to get Max to change his ways it is to get YOU to THINK. None of this is about Max.

Most students which have had problems are not going to be able communicate in a way which will bring clarity to the teacher - it is up to the teacher to bridge that gap and that can only occur after accepting that they just might be doing something wrong.

What exactly has changed now? Max or those representing him have never admitted that he might be doing something wrong. It's only when you started writing about how people had been hurt that everyone started to consider it as a possibility.

It is up to him to not create unnessesary circumstances in the first place. It is up to him to hold himself accountable - it is up to him to "change the way he does things" if the way he is doing them is creating problems.

What real change can there ever be if the teacher assumes no responsibility? You've mentioned that this same pattern will filter down to all the instructors and facilitators. If there is a problem won't it continue to get bigger? You pointed out that Max likes to disappear when things get bothersome. Chris has pointed out that Max has done that as a test to see what the students do, some survive or damage their minds, others look for help with other teachers, some can't make up their minds first loving it and voicing praise, then hating it and speaking out against it and moving onto other practices, then coming back to it, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. The worst scenario is that some consider themselves teacher material and pass the teachings along to others.

This has all been bullshit and needed to be fine tuned before taking it on the road.

I figured it out!

 

TexasNative is actually Oceanside who is really MGD posing as WYG disguised as Spirit Ape channeling Starjumper7!

 

No way! One big whiner!

 

One bad seed who is going to bitch about what the world owes them at the top of their lungs FOREVER, refusing all explanations and shit the same stinky shit all over every topic they can.

 

Dis is F'd up man!

 

Reasonable answers don't WORK!!! It's brain is broken!

 

Om mani padme om. Om mani padma om. Om mani padmi om. Damn, I don't know which one of these is right but will one of you please get me the hell out of here! Om mani pad...Screw it! Come on ol' standby, don't fail me now! Mele kalikimaka, Mele kalikimaka, Mele kalikimaka!

Well now...I'd like to thank all the whiners for their courage in the face of the repeated abuse. I think Oceanside said it best when he said that Kunlun/RP was the path to madness. Amazing ain't it what you have to do to shed a little light.

Chris/Satori you behaved like an insane egotistical vile and vicious S.O.B and your mother as well as your teacher should be ashamed. I've come across rattlers with better manners. I wanted there to be peace yes but as for forgiveness well, I'm just not feeling it yet.

To -O- thank you is appropriate, as well as sorrow to hear about your mother. I'd still be harboring a good deal of hate about that and wouldn't be able to speak or recommend a teacher or his methods if that had happened to someone I loved, you are a better man than me, even if turns out to be that you are a woman.

I have to add this too, you wrote that your mother was ill before you introduced her to Max. How had the practices affected your judgment by that point so you couldn't see that what your mother needed was a doctor instead? How is it that Max couldn't see that either?

I asked TexasNative, in the other kunlun thread, if he could describe to me, as elaborately as possible, the changes he has undergone as a result of his Kunlun practice. What have been the consequences of your practices, will you kunlun'ers share?

 

I do have respect for the simple practice. I would like to hear what those who have spent some serious time practicing have to say.

 

Please?

The Kunlun Poll thread gives a good overview. You called it a swamp, yes there is lots to wade through that the practices brings up. As is, and especially including RP I can't recommend it to anyone.

I'm gonna do a two-step out of here now.

Coldness in the body, heavyiness in the head are signs of external energy (prana) building up - this happens as the crown opens and is a sign of good progress - however...

 

There are some things to keep in mind when this occurs - it ussually happens for a few days but I have had it happen up to six weeks.

 

Must keep relaxed - keep the focus of the eyes soft and relaxed. Anywhere you focus the energy will coagulate up.

 

Mouth breathing will build up too much energy in the chest and causes feelings of frustration. Normally I would say belly breathing however if too much energy is acculumating you may feel nasueas. So just naturally through the nose.

 

The heaviness in the head is because external energy (prana) has a "weight" to it and your head will feel heavy with lost of sensations. You may also feel like you want ot relax or "sleep" or want to feel sleepy. The energy accumulation in the head will "pull" the mind into subtler awareness - trying to relax focus etc and if we resist or fight it then the energy coagulates around that intention and may cause feelings of confusion; rambling, rapid thoughts etc..

 

Staying soft with attention and relax into the cool feeling when you can will allow the energy to dissipate. This is all consistent with your statements around loss of drive. If you feel... best I can discribe it "mucusy" or flu like in the body then this too is too much energy accumulating.

 

Essentially your body and brain is adjusting to the energy. Don't meditate as this will also accumulate and focus more energy (even stillness meditations). Stay relaxed in body and mind - eyes soft and it will normalize on it's own.

 

I know you don't want answers from me so you can take it or leave it.

The question was answered by -O- on page 34.

Besides...

 

Presenting the information in a book addresses point 2)

 

There is no talk of craziness in the book - addresses point 1)

 

And now after seeing this - these are non-issues people will react based on the truth or their heart and level of sincerity. Those that respond with issue - don't think there is anything that can be done... which is most likely why Max simply stops responding. Any other repsonse will eventually be twisted by the ego anyway.

The books may be "crazy" free but the seminars and forums, Kunlun as well as The Tao Bums are not.

I edited my previous post. Please read it.

This is the reason why training/preparation with these powerful practices is important. Teacher and student both run a risk of having difficulty determining what is happening.

The reccomendation I sent was simply two things

 

1) no talk of the extraordinary until people have experienced it themselves as these topics the ego tends to attach to quickly and distracts people from there sincere intentions - this is particularly important for the unstable or those that have a tendancy/prediliction to instability because they become excuses for the ego to be justified in their assertions and avoidances.

 

2) I believed that the teachings on their own are the teachers and if presented in a way - with the right context - the technique will stand on it's own. In terms of how to set the context is not is what is being said but in how. Specifically any wording that the ego can grab onto it will, just as above reach for meaning and begin to use as excuses for its assertations and avoidances (see my posts for examples of this). That the western mind will crave explaination and these explainations can be used to sabotage the ego's efforts to get in the way. That interaction of the western mind with the teacher leads tends to place the teacher forefront and those with tendancies to instability will attach strongly to the interaction - the practice will become about the relationship to the teacher - not the persons dedication to their own path.

 

Yes he said I was negative and disrespectful - and what you didn't include while quoting me was I said this was true. What I didn't include in the statement was in Max's response he stated that he left Hawaii for Arizona and spent three years re-evaluating his past teachings and addressed this technically as the tibetan and thunder practices directly use the mind to manipulate the energy and that this was leading to the issues people were having (too direct with the mind leads to accumulation of energy in the brain which can lead to this behaviour).

Very good -O-.

It's important for everyone to know what can happen with these practices.

Teachers and students need to be aware and prepared/trained properly.

then please PM me and I will do my best to hopefully, finally answer your question and clear all of this up.

This question needs to be answered publicly for this all to come to an end. This is something that all Kunlun students should know. Then all the questions will be answered and there will be nothing left to say.

What would be nice too is to reimburse the course cost to those who have been ridiculed.

I think that would be fair and very fitting don't you?

Ah there it is again. How you humiliate and ridicule. Did you for a moment give a thought and consideration to your students that you continue to ridicule and humiliate. You aren't sure who I am. As no one is now sure you aren't and haven't always been Satori. What if I'm not them? There is that possibility you know.

Things were progressing here but then -O- suspected oceanside of insincerety and all progress stopped. Suspects. Instead of students. Ridicule instead of immediate help. How many ignored emails have their been? It's been explained that if they aren't answered then they don't deserved to be.

These are all diversionary tactics to avoid answering questions, you take pleasure in sacrificing your students and ridiculing them and creating argument so all discussion is destroyed. You've illustrated that here. The start, progress, rise and fall, effective at halting all discussion, perfected with repeated use. This forum is littered with such conversations where the provoker Satori (an egotistical SOB) did a nice job at it. Those 5 or 6 students who have spoken up and voiced their concerned could have been prevented. You still haven't answered the question and all the other valid ones asked here. Why didn't Max heed -O- recommendations? Why didn't you?

As a student of Kunlun I have a right to my anonymity, please respect that.

Consider also that maybe Kunlun allows everyones courage to grow so finally, finally, they too can start pushing back.

Ensure to me that you will prepare the students better for the Max practices and provide immediate help for all health issues and I will stop posting.

One day you will understand.

Be a good person. I understand it now.

Now is what is important, not one day.

I've watched you do this to countless people, on the Kunlun forum and here.

You keep focusing on just a few, saying it's just a few but there's been more than that.

People stop practicing because they can't fix their health issues and because practical and technical knowledge is lacking. They move onto other teachers for help.

That stops them from completing this path. You do want them to leave.

Be a good person. Make the effort. Don't let this happen to anyone else. You can prevent this from happening to anyone else.

Chris/Satori, Eileen thank you for showing everyone what kind of treatment they can expect in the event they should need some guidance/help with the practices. How you responded throughout illustrates perfectly the treatment they will receive and what oceanside and I had become accustomed too.

My thanks to -O- for being the only voice of reason. I hope the Kunlun crew learned something from you. I noticed in some of their responses they gleaned heavily from your wisdom. It's been sorely lacking in the past. I know you helped them too.

Why would anyone tell you who they are so you can bad mouth them, humiliate them with personal information that was given in confidence? That's another thing that you've established a pattern with. You are not GOOD people.

YOU miss one of the most important elements. YOU ARE NOT GOOD PEOPLE.

To protect a student who has been trying to obtain help from you I would send you and recommended they send you on a wild goose chase all over the world.

You have illustrated perfectly the regard you have for your students.

Why would anyone risk this kind of torture speaking up?

You ridicule and humiliate them and take great pleasure in it.

YOU SET A BAD EXAMPLE.

YOU ARE NOT GOOD PEOPLE and that filters down to everyone.

YOU INFECT EVERYONE you profess to love and want to help and lead to enlightenment.

you guys keep pushing "he" as the anon of Oceanside.

 

Ocean said that "He" Is a friend of mine and that "he" is going to see me around, and is looking forward to it

 

Texas, you said that you went out to see "him" That means to The Bay Area California.

 

Kind of long drive for a conversation eh?

 

All that Ocean side wrote in no way coincides with any male practitioner in Northern California

 

I know all of them that started 2 years ago.....all

 

you are both completely full of shit.

 

Texas, you stink like Seattle.....

 

BTW Tex which seminar did you attend?

You are big on conspiracy theories winpro. Check this site it's littered with them. I'd get help with the paranoia. Oh, that's right you have to come here and ask "what do you think"? Do they ignore you on the Kunlun forum, ignore your emails? You may be going GDB and need some help. I'd get that checked out.

I figured it out!

 

TexasNative is actually Oceanside who is really MGD posing as WYG disguised as Spirit Ape channeling Starjumper7!

 

No way! One big whiner!

 

One bad seed who is going to bitch about what the world owes them at the top of their lungs FOREVER, refusing all explanations and shit the same stinky shit all over every topic they can.

 

Dis is F'd up man!

 

Reasonable answers don't WORK!!! It's brain is broken!

 

Om mani padme om. Om mani padma om. Om mani padmi om. Damn, I don't know which one of these is right but will one of you please get me the hell out of here! Om mani pad...Screw it! Come on ol' standby, don't fail me now! Mele kalikimaka, Mele kalikimaka, Mele kalikimaka!

In the end, we all pretend. We all pretend that any of us know a damn thing.

Well now...here's the sad thing, breaks my heart. You people care more about badmouthing the students that have had problems than you do with finding a way to stop it from happening in the first place. There's a pattern here that you've all illustrated with that, you blame the student for health issues that result that causes them to leave your practices.

You don't see a problem with that and how it reflects negatively on you?

Enlightenment may bypass you this lifetime, work on seeing first. You are blind driven by a dream, that could work but you're too egotistical to get out of the way to ensure that it does for everyone.

I was under the assumption that it was a much higher percentage (like 20%) and coming to TTB showed me that it really was only a handful out of many many students.

PLEASE NOTE:

QUOTE(winpro07 @ Apr 12 2009, 01:40 PM) *

 

99% of Kunlun practitoners are never on TaoBums

Don't go back to ass kissing now, you were doing just fine. Chris still hasn't addressed why he lied yet. It negated his post completely but he hasn't addressed that yet.

The (not so) funny thing is that the 5 or 6 people out of that 3000 plus who did not have a good experience have been extremely vocal about it and they have done so on Tao Bums.

Consider that if Max had heeded your advice there wouldn't even be those 5 or 6 here on Tao Bums.

You answered oceanside's question. YOU. After 2 years of trying and having to come onto another forum YOU helped him.

On another note... I write the following because of a comversation I just had with my four year old daughter.

 

A few people have stated gratitude for the time I've spent here - although I never know what to do with this - I ask if you do feel this way to send it to my daughter as she is the one that has made a sacrifice for this activity over the last few weeks.

I forwarded your advice to oceanside. He told me to thank your daughter.

Oh and -O- I think the Kunlun exiles end up here. Those that don't get any kind of help with their health issues don't have a choice, they have to give up the practices.

....in the end it is only hurting yourselves.

Or it may just save a life. I am concerned about it. These people don't know what they are doing. There isn't enough experienced help with these practices. I would greatly appreciate it if they prove me wrong and no one ever gets hurt as a result.

That isn't actually true. I am humbly offering that I can take you through everything i have been through (which is a lot) and give you expert advice as you experience the things I did. However, should you experience something I have not; something foreign to me, would prefer a story or would you prefer that I let you have your own experience and figure it out yourself, like I had to?

 

So to clarify, until I have the ability to freely tap the Tao for answers, or have seen every possible situation a person could experience, or have my third eye open completely, I will not present myself as a teacher.

 

As to what the others are doing out there I don't know. I am not involved with that program.

As to what the others are doing out there I don't know. I am not involved with that program.

Well now...it's just been part of your job to pump em out and ship em out and then....and then you wash your hands of them right? You of course are in no way responsible for what they are doing right? Of course not, hell no.

Sweet Jesus.

None of you know what you are doing.

Well now...could have timed precisely the arrival of the troops. You can't distract anyone from the truth anymore

Chris. None of you know what you are doing. It's illuminated brightly. Shiny bright.

Read what you wrote, then read what I wrote, none of you know what you are doing.