-O-

Wow, I missed the free popcorn... downside of having a life I guess. Two thoughts 1) how much do qualifications have to do with authority opposed to quality? 2) does the value of KL lay in the persception of it? I have my own thoughts on 1 - but regarding 2 - if there is a true value, there is nothing that can be said or done to tarnish the teachings (the true value of it - not the perceived value of it)... so why defend it. Unless it isn't the practice, community, teahers, system etc.... but rather the identification to it. And I suppose this is just the opposite of it's goal...??. Having said that it now seems 1 and 2 are different facettes of the same object, tied into and related to each other... I wonder... no I digress. I've had enough popcorn for one lifetime.

Well thank you for clarifying (he says while lifting a heavy head out of his navel and wiping away the tears) .

Hum... I guess I have "flat energy"... are you guy insinuating that I have many accounts, I am getting better at lying(?)... I assure you that I have only one account here... do you really think I'm a liar? ouch. RE:IP's- I do believe most ISP refresh the IP's about every 7-10 days and very few ISP will provide a fixed IP to user accounts as IP's are running out... so if you are seeing a consistent IP week after week it might be a proxy... and the chances of 9 different people accessing the site with the same IP on the same days is pretty rare IMHO.

Keep in mind I am not a KL student - so if there is a concern of unethical treatment of student information then this wouldn't be an indication of that. We all behave badly at times - for whatever rationale fits at the moment. ... here is a sample of bad behaviour and some thoughts on it

I agree with you on Toledo... it was the phone number I was refering to not his name... and that was at the time his private number.

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry137716 ([edited to add] name was gracefully removed by the moderator - thanks ) http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...l=Philip+toledo (original post is quoted here) http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...ost&p=64979 [edited to add] ... notice the original post includes the mans phone number. ( I write essays to keep the NDF's away - as their attention spans seem to be limited) ...now more retoric about the unsubstantiated...

A concrete example would be Mantra posting a private email sent from PH Toledo. So... call someone a nut job - get banned - post private information and communications - nothing? I state this stuff as these should be things the moderators, I feel, should be considering if they are reviewing their standards. I'm sure as long as you are in the KL camp you have nothing to be concerned about.

Taking my name from the login information from the database at the KL forum and posting it here is against PIPEDA laws in canada - being a democracy and not some dictatorship - thus part of the free world. Mal add me to the ban list. Hardg - you are a dickhead.

(Don't see what is so strange with the term)... well you are only refering to Steve, what about Chad, or me or Mantra, or Gloria - all have been "outted" - Regardless of behaviour or malevolent fun - I particularly don't respect the action... any way I was giving it as an example (and now that I read my post it isn't obvious) at a guideline which isn't opened to much interpretation... you post someones name - then a moderator will pull the name with a note that they have done so. ... and also as an example where real damage can be done with these fun and games... generally our opinions are just that, 'ours' and anyone who takes that information can take however they will - so with editing peoples post for that kind of content I find to be close to censorship... however posting someone elses information - like there name, address, what have you is another matter altogether and may warrant a moderators action... same for copyrighted material etc. I find it interesting that people are upset about juvenile tactics and yet gloss right over actions which are illegal in some parts of the free world.

Doesn't mean the person wants their publically published name to be published here. Was it okay for Steve to publish Chads name here although it is on the PA site... It is a matter of privacy. I am an online professional. My name is published in that context. I don't want clients asking me questions about Taoism or meditation when I am trying to pitch business. It is my choice and at least in Canada I have a legal right to protect my identity. If I chose to not have my name published on this site - then I have my reasons and others should respect that... If we are talking about censoring juvenile behaviour - there is a whole miriad of things to be considered like this, which can have far greater consequences then throwing f-bombs and insults at each other.... which makes the task of moderation nearly impossible.... I wonder if there is a legal right to sue either the poster, or TTB if a published name resulted in lost revenue... that is a whole other area of moderation. And if I had the task of defining guidelines and terms of usage - I would start there.... insults and juvenile behaviour is minor. ...so as a user, knowing the wild wild web, I know that if I participate here there is a chance that some D#$khead may post my name - and that is a risk I take on when I decide to post.... just like I take on the risk of being aggrevated or offended... We are all gorwn-ups - doesn't mean we are obligated to always act that - but it does mean we have the option to "be grown up" or "be a d#$khead" - and I would prefer that option over censorship anyday... I would like to have the option of calling someone a D#$khead - if they are behaving that way.

And for only a XYZ dollars you too can be paired with your "special being".... I, of course, am not selling you on the idea, because the "special being" has in fact chosen YOU!

Exactly what you leave yourself open to when catering to a reluctance to live in 'reality'. It has also lead to some of the most awful human rights issues in that area stemming from guru worship. Belief is powerful, but the power is yours and giving it away to others is dangerous - whether that be a warlord or a yoga instructor. This isn't some spiritual power - it is preying (whether intentionally or instinctually) on another's ignorance and willingness/need to believe. It is exactly why our society developed critical thinking and scientific method - to avoid the atrocities committed out of the catholic reformation.

I concur - but of course that would mean your ascended masters will vanish as well. (not to mention your aquired skills, master's power, psychic knowledge, spirit counsel, spirit guides, tooth fairies, Santa Claus, Easter Bunnies, conspiracy theories, GW Hockey sticks, Alien friends, reptilian lovers, Alternate histories.... yadda yadda will too) WTF !!!

Well what I meant about the Koy pnd wasn't about a peaceful envirounment... rather, when you drop handfuls of feed, the koy all scramble around and over each other - any context beyond a zen like garden -this would be seen as violent... so I guess I see alot of the nonsense at TTB more like the violence of a koy pond... Like any relationship clear boundaries need to be defined before engagement - and clear means not open to much personal interpretation... I don't think posting pictures of someone in any context is appropriate, that is a matter of privacy - not offended sensibility - but I also don't think posting a persons real name is appropriate either for the same reason... and boths sides of the KL debate have done that... I don't think porn should be posted either... but that is because I don't want my daughter to see it if she walks into the room while I'm on the board....these are all personal preferences and irrelevant to TTB. I think sometimes a persons juvenile behaviour could be seen "on topic" - not in the words they write but in their reactions to others words. This is what raises the conversation beyond intellectual masterbation into a real interaction between "persons" - where the whole "person" is aloud to be expressed - whether positive or negative. So I guess my turn off hinges on that... Anyone can offend without using harsh language or base tactics and anyone can post a seemlingly "on topic" post which is intended for completly different purposes - The Avatar post is a good example of how old school forum trolling was done for marketing and commercial purposes in the 90's. (Maybe Drew can take a note from that page.) Avatar has nothing to do with Taoism and the connection of that to KL is weak if not outright delussional... will that sort of thing be deleted eventually as spam?... So where is the line? It really is up to you, and what personality you want for this board... The thing about trollers is if you don't participate they die off. And when they jump onto a post or start a topic - their posts are given life by those who jump into to defend against them - so the people interacting with NDF or Findley or who ever is considered in that camp are just as at fault for propagating the behaviour (IMHO). These guys may have an agenda (which might be nothing more then to entertain themselves with peoples reaction) - And I think that should be allowed, just as defending or promoting is allowed... Honestly I think just moving the offending topics into a free or all section is appropriate... I find if you treat people like children then they will start to behave that way, if you treat them with respect (even if the don't deserve it) they may start behaving that way. Many have moderated themselves - just as I have delete most of my posts because it offended (or threatened) the KL camp. And in that I was able to decide what I was going to do with words I wrote; to take it all down including the post which supported them (if you can take the critism then you don't get the support)... so I think to some extend people do or will moderate themselves.... But I do have an issue with editing peoples expression - whether I agreed, disagree, or am offended by that expression... I don't know Mal - it's not a job I would want - that is for sure!

I've seen this error come up again in the last little while. Might want to consider lazy loading regarding the db connection... here is a good article on the how toos of it. http://jpipes.com/index.php?/archives/99-M...-Do-Things.html

If you don't mind I would like to add a thought out of left field and a reference... In your contemplations try replacing the word suffering with motivation. And the ego & thought thread touch some of this in a round about way.

Just to be clear I'm not talking to anyone person or group - I'm not addressing just Kunlun - so the audience - for me- is wider than that. Regarding your sincerity - I stand corrected (deep bows) and Thank you. Peace to all (Purba's face is not always pretty)

_/\_

I don't have a problem with Max. Things are not so black and white. Is it so hard to believe that one can have critical insight without it being born of negative intention? As for love and best wishes - I don't believe you.

Think of it this way - when people in these roles act badly - it leaves the rest of the community in a fix. On one hand here is a person of superior skill or achievement, greater than our own, who we look to as an example of what we could be. On the other hand there is behaviour, if executed by anyone else in our lives, would be seen as simply bad behaviour. It is a tough conflict of information. One where if we accept the former (they are of superior skill or awareness) than how can they behave this way. So we can over look it - ignore it - or paint in the cracks. "He must know something that I don't... there must be something less obvious (or spiritual) going on..." We make excuses for the behaviour to protect what it is they represent to us. This adds more and more tension to the psyche. An extreme case would be - Teacher has died which evolves into teacher has executed the rainbow light body - to teacher is still around in spirit - to teacher is teaching me and my students in spirit. Then one day teacher shows up alive - and the fragile ideal which has been wrapped up in these thoughts is confronted with the reality that teacher has lied. This becomes too much to handle so more perception is created to cover the even bigger cracks - things like - "my teacher would never lie to me" - to "this can't be my teacher" - to this is an imposter. By doing this the ideal is preserved, and maintains a immedaite presence of the ideal in the persons life (in spirit or other dimensions) But the perception does not integrate all of the information - it ignores the possiblity that teacher is very alive and teacher has lied. So the reality of the teacher and the bad behaviour is pushed out... So how do good hearted - kind - fairly reasonable people get to this point? The assumption that teacher is superior in everyway. and teacher could have limitations which are very worldly -meaning they are energetically advanced but perhaps maybe not so good with people, or words, or knowing the impact of words. Well how does this asumption get made in the first place... there is a high focuss on teacher. The word teachings are as much about the teachers life as they are about the practice. This doesn't mean that the person is promoting themselves - they may just want to convey what is possible to you. Or the validity of the practice has is heavily weighed on the accomplishements of the teacher - which is not nessesarily so. An accomplished practictioner might be a crappy teacher and visa versa. This puts a focus on the person and not the teachings. Then community is built around not only the teachings but the teacher... (one of the most absurd phone calls I recieved was somebody asking if we could get together and chat about teacher... teachings sure but teacher WTF.) The validity of the practice is transferred from the attainments of the teacher - which means an ideal of what can be accomplished is the teacher. Then we have to protect that, or our efforts have been in vain. To be disrespectful - or question - or stand up and say that was bad behaviour means soiling our own efforts and our ideal. So we protect the teacher when common sense and critical thinking would state otherwise - and in a far more damaging way, we protect teacher against what our own awareness tells us. This is important to note - it is against our own awareness. (and you could replace "teacher" with community through any of this). So say from the current conversation - teacher has enough foresight and wisdom to know that faking a death will result in an appropriate test and lesson for the students - but yet in the situation that has just past he couldn't tell if the student thought to be out of line was even awaren of what was going on.... and yet this doesn't cross anyones mind. Or Hata's behaviour - accusing spiritual attack and taoist sorcery - weighed against what is most likely jeliousy. By painting in these cracks we damage our own awareness. Then eventually a few become teachers and when faced with circumstance they don't enjoy or are at thier limit of stress - they then claim that what is emotionally driven nonsense to be spiritual awareness. And at this point they are beyond reproach from anyone aiding in thier own testing of reality and intigration of ALL the information (including their own emotions). "But of course teacher could never be emotionally driven because they have transcended their ego - it must be spiritual awareness". Consider that a large part of Hata's motivation is to reinforce his affinity for and association with his "teachers" and that this dynamic is no different than love letters written to your own teacher. The tao doesn't find balance by holding extremes in each hand (that is duality) - it finds balance by constant transmutation. So one one hand you have a very loving community an on the other hand at the periphery of your community there is all this negativity. We could say - that is the balance of the tao... no that is an excuse to not get your hands dirty. The periphery and the love are the same thing - an effort to hold to love in a constant state and avoid the negative (which keeps it in a constant state). This is protecting the ideal. Now there is all this talk about respect - hata is not respectful - facillitators must be respectful etc. But when push comes to shove there isn't any respect for the facilitator - there isn't the benefit of the doubt that there is misunderstanding, or that they haven't received email in a while - it is straight to a demand for compliance. This is to jump to a conclusion written in language of drama and propelled froward by emotionally driven impatience to get rid of the negative. And it ignores any past experience with that very real person - which I am assuming from everyone else in your community would be an expereince of love and respect, admiration. Perhaps tao doesn't draw the line and say below here is negative and above here is positive - perhaps it is one energy in different phases of the same process of transmutation. You will never get to a point of mastery with that if you are drawing lines of positive and negative. It is a contridiction of the teaching - or a limitation in its application. Consider a scenario - a very advanced practioner - who sucks at personal relationships. The relationships are all one sided, superfical (meaning they can't hold up to conflict), based only on their practices & achievements and are highly conditional on being positive only. There is an immediate avoidance and regressive reaction to anything negative regarding personal relationships - how do you think the tao will rectify this? Do you think it would come up through interactions with people? How do you think it would be avoided? Perhaps it will be labeled as powers that be, deamons attacking at the gates. The issue at hand is these limitations are being past down to the future generation. We meet teacher - gather enough information to emulate teachers - repeat teachers words - and mimick teachers actions. We adopt the same philosophy and then find ourselves in the same situation. Perhaps that is why with in one lineage across a few of the 15+ year practitioners there as been - faked deaths, claims of spiritual attacks, claims of energetic vampirism, claims of dopplegangers and I'm sure more that never bubbles up to the surface. It is past down through how the teachings are being presented, how the relationships are being formed and it is propegated by our need to protection our ideal. Max has told you - he is no better than you, he is not a teacher... but I am not sure that you really know what that means, at least for some of you. And that goes for many other communities as well. This isn't exclusive to Kunlun. At every turn there has been an opportunity to transmute these situations to higher states - but what I have seen demonstrated is "stop what you are doing" "I don't care just as long as they stop" "it is just people and their egos" "too much negativity, I'm not going there" "I quite, I retire" "just tell them I am dead" (sorry but it is true). Or when a gnarly finger is raised then it must just be that other person feeling hurt - and saying "hey buddy get over it" from the moral high ground. Or they are just not doing the work - go heal. The healing is in engaging this not trying to stiffle it. Look at how well Mr Demmey is handling this - that is supurb. Anyway this isn't just for the Kunlun community - although I do appreciate the emails from those of you who are open to what I have been saying today - I was supprised at how many of you there are. It's the only reason why I press on. It really makes no difference to my life - I have more concern and emotional involvement with my emerging bald spots (I use to have great hair). (Winpro- love the sharing definition by the way)

Yes I did consider and contemplate and meditate on it being an intentional lesson - for more years then you have most likely know him. The death had little bad feelings on me - it was emotionally driven actions later that were different. A lesson only... think about what you are saying - it is also a deception and a lie - is this the best example to others. Haven't been warned - I respected every request of Max's without question until he behaved very badly. As for coyote's... my first and longest teacher was lippen apache. Being a coyote is not an excuse to be flippent in your teachings or the well being of your students. An example of a coyote teachings is... "Elder I want to learn about the owls" - "your not ready for owls, go study the mice" and while you study the mice you learn - indirectly all about the owls behaviour (because the two are intertwined). This trickster mentality from the mountain you are using as an excuse is highly distorted my friend. Max has said himself, he is not better than you or I. You guys are not defening Max, you are defending an ideal you hold in your minds which he represents. You are limiting yourself - specifically in bringing the insights from your practices to the rest of the ordinary world - where faking deaths, publically airing credibility issues, claiming people are dopplegangers or energetic vampires is considered to be juvenile and irresponsible. Stop making excuses for these people just because they represent something to you. It is not only preventing you from moving into greater awareness and applicable skill - it is also preventing them from doing the same. There is a serious heuristic issue here, where any thought that runs through the mind is considered to be a spiritual reality and as they progress to teachers themselves the flaws in awareness go unchalleged and even supported by the loyal. All of this has happened before. The teachers intention has shifted from teaching back to the his own evolution and all of this is back in spades. Excuses... nonsense then more excuses... Again the gnarly fingers are an effort to help - your current community hasn't faced this. Face it or make excuses - I will not make excuses for this type of behaviour. It is not a matter of harbouring bad feeling - forgiving and moving on does not mean ignoring the consequence of the actions taken - or worse yet making excuses for the perpetrators. The actions have had their manifestations - my stance today is one of them - not out of bad feeling but because I have learned from the experience and can now comment with some validity.

Let me remind you, as someone who has had to live with some of the consequences of Max's choices. He told an entire "community" he was dead - for whatever rational that lead to this action - it was a lie and had no regard for the people whose "...heart is full of love, appreciation and respect for you, Max Christensen. " We all have acted badly - and although I point gnarly fingers at people - keep this in mind in regarding Hata - who might be dealing with physical or emotional issues beyond his immediate control.

The point is that there is a flaw in how all of it is all structured which leads to these issues. The issues really are no different than what a franchise or or nation organization with a large distribution chain would expereince if it is not structured properly - and in those cases, those organization do not last... so regardless of this as a "he said she said" arguement - there is the longevity of Kunlun as an organization at stake. Where will it be after Max is gone - where will it be in 10 years. Will it go the way Theta has, of Malchezidek... I am trying to bring to light a larger issue which has more to do with the managment on a brand and a service. For example one flaw is the intial promotion of Kunlun based on Max's reputation and acomplishements. This down the line leads to a number of thing - people motivated to come to 1) see the amazing teacher 2) become like the amazing teacher 3) gain abilities like the amazing teacher 4) Leaves the organizations reputation vulnerable to the man's reputation (which is what happened here - call Max a fraud will then discredit Kunlun.) This is just a few examples which all have a myriad of possible negative outcomes. Also you have no real means of action to deal with this nor has there been enough thought into how a situation like this would be handled if it did come up. Right now the only means of holding facilitators or instructors accountable is to remove them from a list and hope that not being held in good standing will hurt their feelings enough to have them fall in line. You are blindly walking down the same path to obscurity and eventual failure a many, many very well intentioned "schools" have in the past. So let me ask you this... how the school is structured now, will it be around in 10 years, 50 years, 200 years? Have you thought of a way of organizing it so that it can be around in 10, 50, 200 years. Kunlun is essentially a global presence - but is handled in situations like this - like a local, small establishment. As an organization you have left yourself open to this and many other problems which could also manifest over time. You can take responsibility for this now and ensure the survival of what could be a very important teaching for humanity - or you can be stuborn and lean on the usual PR approach you have in the past Let me ask you... how much time was spent in fact checking before acting out in rectify in the situation? Do you have a review process in place for, not punishing or controlling your representatives, but in reconcilling all of the information? Could you simplly walk over to a file cabinet - pull out the facilitators signed agreement and say "yes they are not in accordance with this as stated in line..." I bet not. You have a knowledge base that is wide open to being molested by the egos of others (both internally and externally) - you have a brand which is wide open to being devalued by situations just like this... The thing to keep in mind is that breakdowns like this are not always so black and white. This one is easy - Hata has fallen off of his rocking chair and is unreaonably & irrationally motivated. But the really sticky situations to work out are when you have good people on both sides of the case, each sincerly doing what they feel is the right thing to do... its just, what is the right thing to do for two parties sometimes is diametrically opposed to the other. And how is that going to be handled - have you already thought of, defined and communicated what is allowable uses of the term "Kunlun nei gung" - (I know you haven't because you haven't registered the trade mark). You are wide open and at risk. I may put your nose out of joint by pointing this out - and will surely jump on the ad hominem attack - but I am pointing this out, because on some level I do care.