Ramon25

Would anyone know how to integrate performance breathing from scott sonnon and Bruce's water method form of breathing?

Thanks guys for all the responses! I will take alot of it into consideration... I definatley wasn't talking of doing both at the same time, just wondering if they complimented each other nicely. In regards to the article related to the tilted vessel, I have seen that article and consider it full of nothing but Buddhist dogma even when he claims that he is not being dogmatic and I generally disagree with the whole view. Also where can I find those awesome articles from Geoff Dixon?

So My whole physical regimen is based off of scott sonnons work, Things like Intu-flow, ageless mobility and kettle bell work. Anyhow I was wondering if That and Inner dissolving meditation would compliment eachother. Thanks guys!

Its an awesome dvd. Actually seeing the movement of the body happening and hearing it explained is alot more satifying that reading it. You gain an appreciation for how amazing the method is and how much work you have to do until you can do it.

Highly reccomended

bump

Again, you cannot appraise an internal martial art by what it looks like externally. There are more forces at work. It's not just "stepping with toes first", or something like that. A lot more forces at work.

 

Frantzis on bagua stepping

 

He also teaches walking method in "The Great Stillness".

UMM when it comes to walking, yes you can. I dont care what they want to say, anatomy is anatomy, movement is movement. If he is walking that way more forces are being placed on the knees than what is healthy according to modern standards. This is what I mean dude by mumbo jumbo, its just NOT the case, atleast not in this situation.He may do it his whole life and feel nothing, there are are many factors at play as to why he woud or wouldnt feel pain which does not mean that he is not causing damage. Progressive Damage can be done with no pain felt ever.

The reason that it is unhealthy is because walking is one of mans most basic, foundational and essential functions. AND WE DONT WALK THAT WAY and did not evolve to do so. The joints, ligaments and structures of the legs and pelvis are not designed to handle forces in that way. not to mention that if u do that enough your burning those habits into your nervous system which is going to carry over to normal walkiing in some way. So that maybe the right muscles dont fire at the right time durning normal activity.

I value ancient wisdom as much as anyone here but some things are obsolete because of modern knowledge.

Oh on a side note im glad we can al talk without getting upset.

Thanks for all the responses guys!

I like closing my eyes as well.

So when you guys say internal phenomena you mean, sensations, posture, emotions and such?

Also sirius I know I see BK closing his eyes during zhang zhuang, I would also say it is mediation at some level. And if eyes are not closed what do they do in your opinion?

Also can ALL postures like the tiger and dragon and archer from the way of power be done eyes closed or should they be open?

Even if eyes are open, the focus should still all be internal on aformentioned list above?

that guy is walking toes firstf. they hit the ground before the heel. walking in any other way besides heel first is gonna put undue stress in the lower body.

Yes, but how do they work?

 

If they work because some dude has more muscles than you and beats the shit out of you, well.... I don't really consider that to be in the same classification of internal martial arts!

YES! that what I just said! They work, I have never been able to apply force in such a way. Against frinds who were alot stronger then me, I can psuh them around applying some of the principals I have learned so far.

Okay I wont reply to alot of the above because I dont care about his lineage. And regardless they WORK, creating force I never could have dreamed of. I lift weights and have done muay thai which is about power is a very destructive way. So again I dont see what your argument is. Even if he did create them the originals were created by someone. Were they more magical or something? Of course it took them long know more about proper movement now.

Of course working on chi gung is different that hitting the gym AGAIN we are talking somatics here.

Muscles twsiting and stretching for power is bullshit although I knw what he means by that.

Walking as we are designed for it is heel first then toes. There is a whole host of muscles reponsible for stablazing the knee and lower back as we walk and they have to fire in a sequence to be healthy. The glutes and hamstrings play a big roll, and the heel first and toes after is imporatnt so that they can kick and do their job to the take the many hundreds of pounds of force created by walking off of the knee. The tradiional form of bagua is toes first heels after. Which takes the glutes out of stabalzing the force of contact with the ground and places the shear force more on quads than on right muscles. This creates normal malking patterns which will not fire properly, slowly wair out the knee joint itself, put addttioanl force on the lower back and jsut genarlly be bad for posture. hence why many people complain about knee and pain in bagua. Its bad for you. simple.

but see we are going in cirlces here because there are alot of internal training methods in regrds similar to the "lions opnes it mouth" posture in jiulong, Specific to jiulong like the other is specific to yin bagua. I dont see the what we are discussing really

And you keep using the analogy of a figher in another art walking a cricle. That just doesnt apply here. These are bagua palms and palm changes were talking about, not boxing mixed into a circle.

All that you talking about is really good structure, body mechanics and proprioception in realtion to specific technique. Thats not mystical, I guess I misunderstood what you meant but modern science gives us alot of that already. There is no need for a lineage pursay, they dont own the patent. Then what if different sects have different internal processes. Which one is bagua?

Oh by the way like I said earlier the way they walk in traditional bagua is a disaster on a biomechanical level. Its a good way to fuck yourself up with time, YET its is taught as if it is beneficial. It is not and does not apply to combat. So tradition to me is shit unless validated in modern science when it comes physical movement.

I know you practice alot of BK's stuff and I know his opinion on IMA's and teachers/tradition. But i disagree as arrogant as it may sound

I agree, and what I have noticed in my experience is that lets say I have a deficiant chakra, or a blockage in an organ or what not. When I get to work on adding energy or clearing the blockage, insight comes with the process, but I do not usually get insight until I deal with the energetic root cause. I know its sort of a chicken or the egg situation, but this is how it seems to work for me. As I add energy to the chakra that is deficient, insight follows and thus I also learn the lesson.

no that makes perfect sense. But not everyone pays attention to the lesson as if the practice alone is enough. sounds good though and again good luck with the process

Thanks, and I don't consider what I am doing as "storage" though. Several of my lower chakras on my MCO are very deficient, and I am using my sexual energy to fill them up so that they function as they should. I consider this more of "maintinece" than storage

In my expirience chackras are not actually energy vortices but metaphors for aspects of life and existence. Either way if they are dificient I would advise to try and look for a deeper cause, either mental or physical for such a defiency. Patching it up may work temporarily but unless the core issue is corrected, whatever that may be, your gonna end in the same place because that the tendency that created it will most likely still be there.

Personally I have several reasons for avoiding sex for now. I am one of those that answered in the poll that I am not naturally celibate, but am now for cultivation purposes. For one I am using the potent sexual energy to clear blockages in my MCO, for healing, and the like. Also since my marriage is strained, and I am separated yet still techincally married I don't want to mess around in that realm for now, and even if I were not married right now, yet recently divorced I don't want to go through all the rebound drama that is so typical of people who have recently ended a relationship. I want to rather use this energy to help me to adapt to my new circumstances in a healthy and well adjusted way.

Well thats fine, sexual energy is the libido, the drive for all things really. It can help, but dont strain, either to supress or store. Sexual energy is our most powerful source. If too much stores you go BOOM but is suppose what you are doing is temporary and goal orientated, so goo luck and be careful

That sucks man, I wish you luck and it is my hope that the money will appear somehow so that you can afford it. Just pay attention for it

Its moot because the distinction your making is way to subtle and like i said "mystical" for me to see any real value to it. I do not belive that there is some sort of ABSOLUTE truth when it comes to the Internal arts, chi gung ECT.. to me it ALL related to somatic psycology and archetypal influences. So there is wiggle room, If it looks like, feels like and fights like bague yet doesnt contain some really esoteric notion related to traditional lineages of bagua, i really dont see how that matters in my view of what all this is. Its bagua by the very spirit of it regardless of what small internal distinctions are present. It bagua because the internal and external are one and not separate. Jiulong is a modern interpretation, the internal world of modern man is different now, so too must be the practices and somatics he expriences. ALL things must change to remain true.

Of course having sexual attraction is natural, what is not so natural is when sex becomes problematic. You don't see animals in nature looking at animal porn, or becoming animal sex addicts. If you really want to use nature as an example you could look at it in a couple of ways. First of all most animals only mate at speific times of the year (mating season). Second a lot of creatures of the male gender die after they mate.... so what does that tell ya?

But since animals usually only mate at specific mating seasons and don't waste their jing, you don't tend to see animals in the wild with cancer and all the health problems we humans have in our society.

Well I see what your saying but we are like those animals because the human animal has sex year long and is a very horney little critter. Infact the animals that we are most realted to genetically and socially is the bonobo which is a VERY horney animal. It has orgies all the time, year long, male and male, female and female. There is no distinction. just lots of sex. So the animal analogy doesnt really help here. The issues that he has should be looked at holistcally and not with the guilt he presentig with. There is a disturbance, so why is it there? instead of a practice to abolish it he needs to understand himself and the energy present. He need not feel so bad about having sexual desires which are perfectly natural and are not a spiritual sin in the least.

If you really dont want to be a man and have a sex drive which is part of being in HEALTHY body, cut off you testicles so that you can get rid of all your testosterone. That will take away your lust!! um for the record sense taoism is about nature, having lust is natural...

It's not the principles you use- it's HOW you use the principles.

 

Running backwards is yielding. You are yielding to the opponent's strength. But that type of yielding usually makes you lose. Is that the yielding of tai chi? No, it is not.

 

You have to know the methods of tai chi which allow you to yield and still win! These are specific, and have been refined for generations. If you do not know them, you do not know tai chi.

 

You can do the form, you can repeat the principles. But if you don't know HOW to apply them, you aren't doing tai chi. If you do kick boxing as soon as you get into a fight, you aren't doing tai chi, even if you do solo form practice your entire life.

 

That was my point.

 

This jiulong bagua guy might know how to fight. He might be trained in fighting. He might have a lot of students who can kick the crap out of a lot of other styles' students. They might walk in a circle, and apply circular techniques when they are fighting. They can dress up in robes and carry around the I Ching. They can say, "we have no forms, you need to flow with the ever changing energy of the situation". But that doesn't mean they know, or are practicing, bagua.

 

That was my point.

 

Glad to hear you're looking into the phoenix system Apparently that was the favored system of the late Dr. Xie Peiqi, who was the lineage holder prior to the current one, He Jinbao.

For the record, I think its bagua and the distincion your making is a moot point, But we all have our own perception for a reason. And I respect you.

Yeah the phoenix system is the one that calls my name the most. I think its beautiful Which one do you practice? I bought the dragon one but it hurts my back

Because there are various methods of INTERNAL training that compose internal martial arts. Methods of conditioning the body, both through standing and moving methods.

 

Look at some of these videos: here, I suggest watching the second one, because he dives right into some standing exercises. He does a great job of illustrating, right off the bat, how two postures that look the same externally can be doing two radically different things. Also, there are processes going on inside the body which are nearly impossible to see (such as how the ribs/side are being stretched in a posture).

 

There are processes of training the body which are quite subtle and hard to see unless you know they are there. Even if you copy the movement, you might not even been engaging in the processes that the movement is doing.

 

The website he provides does not give enough evidence that he knows any sort of internal processes, knows any methods of training specific internal processes, or has ever had a teacher which knows them.

 

Again, this does not mean that he is incompetent, that he can't fight, that he can't teach, or that he is inexperienced. It just does not necessarily mean he is the inheritor of some bagua lineage.

 

 

 

Because it's not just principles that determine the art!

 

A principle of tai chi, for example, is yielding. But if you watch a fighter who is scared, and backs up into a corner, and gets the crap beat out of him, you'd say he just got run over. But you could also say he yielded. Does that mean the art of tai chi is running backwards into a corner and getting the crap beat out of you? NO!

 

There are SPECIFIC methods of tai chi which teach techniques, and training to build your body to carry out those techniques. If you do not know these techniques, you do not know tai chi. You just can't know the form and say, "yield, remember, yield!"

 

You are either going to get the crap beat out of you, OR, if you are trained in other styles (karate, boxing, judo, etc etc) you may revert to using those techniques with the "flavor" of tai chi (as in, it looks like you are doing tai chi just before, and just after, the fight, but not during). But those do not mean you are doing tai chi!

Like I said earlier, sitting and standing meditation comprimise the first year or so of his system. Just because it isnt on his site doesnt mean he doesnt do it Anyways Im also gonna buy soon, as per your recomendation a while back, the phoenix system in the yin bagua

The edit you made above on the principles comment made no sense man

anyways its bagua

Ramon, you can believe what you want. But just because you believe something is a certain thing, does not make it so.

 

As I have said, the guy looks like he's trained and experienced. Is he experienced in the martial art of bagua? Did the people he says teach him actually teach him? Did they even exist? Were they where he said they were when he said they were? The details surrounding his story seem to be suspect. What he teaches seems to be suspect.

 

A boxer can step into a tournament and beat the crap out of a lot of people. He can even beat the crap out of a lot of traditional and internal arts practitioners. But if he says he teaches bagua, and walks in a circle, is he really practicing bagua? Even if he says, "I channel the energy of the trigrams into spontaneous, circular movement", is that really bagua?

 

 

This guy is suspicious to me because I can't find any real content on HIS style, just a bunch of generic keywords and phrases that can be found anywhere. When I was a kid I got suckered by a lot of teachers that looked, acted, and quacked like a duck, but didn't have the goods. So I'm fairly critical and intensive when looking at new people. And this guy.... is not promising in my humble opinion. That's not to say he's not a healthy, effective fighter. I just don't know that he teaches bagua.

 

Unless you have some evidence to the contrary, that isn't just copied and pasted from wikipedia or generic enough to fit EVERY style of bagua.

I just dont understand dude I have read and reread your post and all I can come up with is just becuase it looks and acts like bagua doesnt mean its bagua because of some unknown reason that you havent clarified. If you want to know the style pick up a book.

I laso have these books

http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Pa-Kua-Chan-Vol/dp/0865681724/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1290374315&sr=8-5

http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Pa-Kua-Chang-Shui-Tien/dp/0865681732/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1290374315&sr=8-8

I cant really see much of a difference between the two. Not in priciples

I guess not, then nothing really does except for some Mystical mumbo jumbo. You dont even know what internal priciples the art teaches. yet you say SOME, as if you know. WhY? because you are already biased in this situation. Which is fine. My perception of what constitutes legitimate practices is very different is suppose. I like to use the lens of science and the a westen perspective to adapt eastern practices to my life. The traditional psuedo explanations are not very important to me.

if LOOKS like a duck, ACTS like a duck and QUACKS like a duck is what I said. Your reading and seeing what you want here sloppy

It walks in a circle, uses the same palm shapes and PRINCIPLES as traditional forms of bagua. I can assure you what I have learned WORKS in the REAL WORLD. If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like one, its probably a duck. The reason it may not have looked like "bagua" is because jiulong is a principal based art and techniques are simply applications of said priciples. So really it creates an infinite amount of applications, yet there are none really set in stone pursay. These books are some of the most detailed i have ever read for ANY martial art. He also explains the art itself though physics and physiology, very little "mystical" talk is used. As far as I am concerned, if people dont consider it bagua, they are stuck in the arachaic idea of tradition in place innovation. But to each his own. He even has knife and gun disarms, which again make a style that speaks to modern man. Oh also one of the reasons they probably didnt learn much is because the first 6-12 months at his gompa is spent on sitting and standing meditation and ONLY that. Then basic steeping and exploration of each palm shape is about another year before the real meat is added. Its not a mcdojo.

So what do you do with the eyes? gazing foraward, unfocused, closed? Ima little unsure and cant find any clear info, thanks

Too easy. Lazy man's walk. Bagua has too many details to be learnt from a book. Also good Bagua involves HEAVY LEG WORK in order to get all the benefits. In TCM theory leg strengthening promotes a better and higher Qi flow.

 

Start working your horse stance like this:

 

 

 

To walk like this:

 

 

And in the circle, like this:

 

Lazy mans walk Combat situations are very unpredictable and sponateous, hence no set form,I dont have much expirience in formal training on the chinese arts but I have alot of expirence in COMBAT focused disciplines, excessive preset forms get in the way of being in a fight. and Also the traditional way of walking the circle from a BIOMECHANICAL perspective, you know SCIENCE, destroys your knees and puts pressure on the lower back aswell. not to mentions that walking that way in a combat situation is extremly stupid and undavisable. Plus its a REALLY detailed book. I agree though a teacher would be best. But its comes back to the Good, better, best hierchy. best would be a teacher, but the book is is good

Sloppy, why do you say fishy?