VCraigP

so the fire cultivation method is to move kundalini energy up your spine

 

water cultivation aka kunlun is to move energy down your spine

 

which is better, easier, faster?

i'm pretty sure you don't even have the distinctions between "Fire" and "Water" type practices even properly defined in your head.

Also FWIW Winn defines his and the Healing Tao systems methods as Fire and Water.

Beyond that...

I really like what Sean said.

It is always difficult to advise someone what they should pursue. What are you drawn to? Do you have sufficient discernment to determine for yourself what is a good path? Do you have sufficient intuition to feel what is right and wrong for you?

I would re read Winns discussion about the Fire Water dichotomy which Frantzis poses, and I would advise to read the interview with Frantzis recently published here by Sean. Just for starters.

Whether Kundalini as a phenomenon can even be classified as Fire vs Water method I am not even sure.

To me the main distinction is that so called Fire methods involve taking conscious action in the process, where Water methods just allow the process to unfold without "making" anything happen. I once had a teacher who insisted that doing "inner smile" practice overheats the heart because you are making something happen. This was not my experience by the way...

The subject of whether Frantzis perspective about Water method vs Fire method as being completely different paths is still an open question. The idea of purely allowing, dissolving, etc vs engaging with the process and consciously interacting with it is a big distinction which is not limited to just Winn and Frantzis.

Finally, if anyone can tell you what is "better, easier, faster" they are both wrong and they don't know what they are talking about.

Craig

INteresting that you didn't stay on the Vic for 49 days. According to my teacher this is the amount of time it takes for a new regimen to become completely entrenched and replace old patterns. Looks like you stopped the drugs just in time :-)

Craig

No, I was thinking more about lines (that are produced with negatives) and pixels (digital). Just wondering if the brain responded any differently.

I don't think it matters. What matters is intent and ability to make the connection on a Shen level. The photo or image is just a jumping off point.

I dont understand.when you first came here you maked a point of how high level cultivators you and satiago was.full awakened kundalini and so on.you also said in an argue that you could "see" my level was low,funny girl.then you suddenly making posts about you have been at jenny lamb seminar and learned from her and beeing very impressed.and now you get transmissions from a sifu dan.Where is the end of all this transmission bullshit.you offer healing and kundalini transmissions to others,but you need to get transmission yourself from this guy sifu dan.I redally do not understand,please explain.This sifu dan shouldnt in any way be a money charging friend of yours?

Wow

Many teachers study with other teachers in this day and age.

You seem to be expressing a very narrow worldview, and/or you are just a hater.

As long as you are a living breathing human you have the potential to learn and grow. It seems to me this is what Shaktimama is doing. Why should this detract from her? Giving and receiving.

I don't know why I bother.

Shaktimama. Looking forward to your next report...

Craig

Suppose killing gives someone pleasure and happiness. Even if he is insane (most serial killers are not), can he be considered a taoist if he believes in its basic premises?

Never have a been so close to using the IGNORE function

What's fire type?

 

My question about measurement hasn't been answered. How did Chinese practitioners of this even REALIZE that hypertension existed, considering that sphygmomanometers were only invented about one hundred years ago?

Measurement is not relevant. There are ancient mind body practices which can and do reduce hypertension. The fact that such tools of measurement did not exist at the time doesn't mean anything. It's really more of a side effect anyway. No one was sitting around saying "wow, your blood pressure is too high, go do this qigong set"

It is just simply that certain methods and practices designed for broader purposes have the effect of reducing hypertension in a way which IS measurable.

How can that be? How can you have Taoist techniques that don't fall under TCM? That's what he's asking.

Blastolio

I know you are all about precision in communication so how about this. I don't care that he used imprecise language in his question. what I heard is the title of the thread, Can Taoist practice cure primary hypertension.

dont care to pick apart the rest of what he may or may not have asked.

Frankly I think you are being silly in focusing on that little piece of how he phrased the question.

Craig

Primary hypertension is known as the silent killer as many who have it don't know they do. Its etiology is unknown yet it leads to so many other health problems. So not counting traditional Chinese medicine, are these any Taoist practices that can treat it?

 

Since blood pressure was unmeasurable over two hundred years ago, I doubt that there'd be any scientific validity to any such practices, if they exist.

The answer is unequivocally YES.

Next question please.

Craig

I started feeling something yesterday with the standing FP! I just emptied my mind. It felt like flowing water in my whole body. I was very pleasantly surprised.

 

I'll try focusing on the Tan TIen... but wouldn't that restrict the energy flow? My understanding is the breath sequence is to distribute the qi to specific areas of the body... maybe Sifu Terry can chime in on this.

For Sifu Terry to chime in might I suggest to ask a question in the FP thread. My impression is he barely has time to respond in that thread and is unlikely to find your query in this one.

Recently I heard a teacher say that if you feel any sensation at all "that is a qi sensation". Not sure how useful that is. But perhaps what I mean to say by that is also about releasing expectations. Qi is both mundane and sublime.

Emotional stuff coming up is not at all unusual, and I believe a sign that things are happening. When things come up you should stay with the practice until they clear. This is how to release and peel back a layer of the onion. then you get to bring up more buried stuff from deeper layers :-) Often in qigong practice if not emotional stuff, then feeling sick can come up, and again it is important to practice through this in order to clear it out. IF you stop when you hit such a barrier you have wasted your effort.

Good luck in your practice.

Craig

Hi Blasto,

 

I have a question, I have a simmilar mindset like yours (critical thinking and all that jazz), yet I don't know what to answer to those that question me regarding my beliefs in Qi, Shen and unseen 'realities' in general. I mean how can we find a reasonable / rational ballance between the two?

Maybe you've explained it in other threads, if you did, please point me at them

 

Regards

 

L1

Why do you have "beliefs" about Qi, Shen and unseen realities?

I advise to discard labels about phenomenon. What have you actually experienced of Jing, Qi, Shen.

If you have an experience, do you have to believe in your experience? No.

Don't believe anything, explore and experience. By now I would think you would have many experiences of Qi at least to convince you of ... something.

If I want to or am compelled to believe in something, it sounds like religion to me. I suppose I could believe in the Jade Emperor if I chose to, but this would have no real relationship to my experiences of Qi, or even what I might label as experiences of Shen.

Tao practice is a grand experiment in my view. Your experimental explorations should yield information useful to yourself at least and you carry on refining the exploration from where that step has taken you.

To return to the OP subject I find that one can apply critical thinking here and it is important in order to avoid self delusion about the outcomes of ones experiments, explorations and experiences therefrom.

TTFN

Craig

Hey,

 

When Stig writes that he is not a Taoist, and then Marblehead writes that Stig is in fact a Taoist it becomes clear that this is not a philosophical debate but one of linguistics. As such it cannot be resolved due to the elusive nature of that thing through which humans write and speak. Until there is a universally accepted definition of the words Tao and Taoist then the debate that has taken place on this thread is nonsensical. The first chapter of the TTC (seminal to the context of "Taoism") indicates that by its very nature the Tao cannot be defined...it is by definition impossible to define. So without the ability to define Tao, how can one define Taoist within the boundaries of the context of Taoism? This reduces the problem from one of philosophy to one of marginally intellectual entertainment.

 

 

Now I think I understand beter why my teacher likes to use the term "Chinese Wisdom Traditions" for his transmissions of Taiji, Qigong, Calligraphy, I Ching (yijing), Qin, Xinyi etc. All of which seem "Taoist" but may arguably not actually be, depending upon your definition of course.

I AM A TAOIST. My definition is my own and I allow no one to correct it! I am a follower of the way. I am ignorant, and yet I seek.

Earlier in this thread someone mentioned seeking "the root" and they were talking about texts. These are not the root they are not even the branches but maybe the leaves.

The philosopy is not the root. The practices are not the root. The Religion is NOT the root.

I seek the way, therefore I am a Taoist.

I have learned something about tools to help illuminate the way, but it is not this, not this, not this.

I am a seeker. Right now I seek to release my attachment to stories about myself, labels which obscure my true being.

I think the best thing a Taoist could do would be to disavow being a Taoist. Not this , not this, not this.

But rituals, labels, costumes, forms have a certain romance to them. Hard to let go.

Still on the way, as are all.

Craig

Awesome interview. Also check out his podcast interview with Lama Tantrapa which I mentioned in the "Free Wisdom" Thread.

Plus I find it a personal triumph that he pointedly refused to answer my question about Lineage transmission.

Mr Frantzis, if you are reading this, RESPECT. It was a question born of curiosity of how the melding of these Eastern traditions into the West are happening. You have every right to refuse to answer as it is indeed HIGHLY personal.

Thanks again to Sean and Bruce Frantzis for bringing this quality information.

Now I must go dig some more shallow wells...sigh.

Craig

I am just speechless. Thank you for posting this, because I'd never have known and you are really lucky to live so close to the source. Those silly Mayans indeed! Unfortunately this is a calendar conflict for me. I have an appointment out at Area 51 on the 21st. Do you think They'll take a raincheck? Oh sorry...a Soncheck?

 

apologies... to any offended....well sort of.....

Sorry

It already ended on March 2nd. Didn't you notice?

Heaven, Man, Earth.

aka - The three treasures.

Each has it's own three treasures.

Heaven

Sun, Moon, Stars

Earth

Water, Wind, Fire

Man

Jing, Qi, Shen

A trinity is a seemingly universal model.

Also agree that man is seen as the itermediary between heaven and earth.

Which means that Man can be viewed in that trinity as having more to do with Qi than Jing...interesting.

I suppose our energy body IS important.

Craig

since we're on a taoist board, what about medical qigong, tcm acupuncture, or chinese herbs?

Qigong, acupuncture, external Qi healing treatment and herbs, probably moxibustion.

Also Serrepeptase is a good suggestion not only for pain but for healing.

See TCM Doc for ways to help DETOX from vicodin. I promise you your Liver is not happy about it!!

Good Luck

Craig

PS - I never understood the claim of use of Herb for pain management. I figured people were just using it as an excuse to acquire medical MJ with symptom which is hard to prove objectively.

PPS - Hello rationalization...

Hi all.

Lately I have been spending my free time listening to Podcasts of interviews performed by Lama Tantrapa.

He has interviewed so many great teachers in his series running for a couple of years now entitled "The secrets of qigong masters"

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/qigongmasters

It has been wonderful to hear the words of wisdom in these teachers own voices.

Tremendously inspiring....AND FREE!!!

Some of my favorites have been

Dr Jerry Alan Johnson, Kumar Frantzis, Ken Cohen, Chunyi Lin, Roger Jahnke, Gary Clyman, Effie Chow.

So many different experiences. So humbling and so mind expanding.

I highly recommend it to one and all.

PS - Yes Lama does plug his own material on almost every show, but he is certainly entitled and it is a small cost of admission to the minds of so many great people.

PPS - More enjoyable then reading TTB so TTFN.

PPPS - Can anyone recommend other great Podcasts??

Craig

http://www.masterwu.net/articles_taijiqigong.html

above is a link to Master Wu's DVD. This is the 8 move "mother form" for Wudang He Taichi. Also known as Zhaobao Taichi.

fwiw

Craig

There has been an increasing trend over the last 5-10 years that seems to be hitting epidemic proportions and I have seen this trend increasing exponentially on this forum over the last couple of years. It's what I am calling Internet generation syndrome... This trend seems to apply to teenagers and young adults who have never lived without access to cell phones and internet. I am seeing a very different mindset from this upcoming group of people that marks a huge shift in thinking from when I was a kid.

 

As a teacher, I have been getting more and more inquiries from students who want me to explain everything to them ahead of time over the phone or in email before they come to a class. I just got a phone call today from a local student who wanted me to "meet him and give him a couple pointers on breathing." When I told him that I would be happy to set up a time for a private lesson, he said he was having money troubles and asked if I could just hang out with him and maybe we could work something out... I then suggested if money was an issue that he come to my group qigong class. He wanted to know how many classes it would take before he would learn enough to do it on his own and if he didn't like the class, would I offer him a refund.... I felt as though he believed he was talking to a customer service rep... I gave him some options and told him to think about it and get back to me... I was polite, but needless to say, I am not very interested in training that kid... I don't think he would learn anything until he changes his perspective... I'm also not angry with him because I have seen enough to know that he is not alone. It is a very common mindset of his generation. Years ago when I was starting out as a teacher, I rarely got these kinds of inquiries. Now I get two or more a week. A few weeks back I got an inquiry from a local person ( 10 minutes drive) who wanted to know if I would do skype training with her because she didn't want to make the drive to my studio.....So, something is changing and I don't think it is for the better.

 

The internet generation syndrome exhibits a mindset that assumes that everything can be made instantly available, cheap and refundable. Just like products on the internet or on ebay... Internet generationers ( I think because they have grown up on TV internet, texting and video games) also believe that they can intellectually understand everything beforehand and they demand to be told everything there is to know before they will put forth any effort into learning. Internet generationers seem to believe that it is THEY who are doing teachers a favor by studying with them. There is a tendency among some of them to seek for a personal friendship relationships with teachers. These ones are particularly sensitive about paying any money. They believe that their friendship is more valuable than any money and therefore, they should not have to pay the teacher for his/her time.... This indicates to me that parents have abandoned their kids to TV, internet and video games and so there is a huge hole in these kids' guts and so they project their desires for parental love onto spiritual teachers... No wonder there are so many false gurus out there promising enlightenment in a weekend seminar...

 

On other threads, other fellow TTBs have proclaimed that they don't have the time or money to travel and meet teachers. Many have only learned through books, forums and videos.They often complain about not being able to find a reliable system, yet they have never taken the time to physically seek out any teachers. They often complain about the amount of money spent on "materials.' Some are college students who claim they don't have time or money to go seek out teachers... You think it was different when I was a kid? we had to go to college, have part time jobs and we still found ways to save money, pile into cars, sleep on the roadside or in the back of cars or take buses on weekends or semester breaks. You don't have time because you are in college? I understand. Sometimes we have to make choices. Sometimes, you may need to choose college and forget about training. sometimes you take a semester off and work and train... Maybe you need to choose between college, a relationship or training... Sometimes you have to make choices and sometimes you don't get everything you want... Complaining about it accomplishes nothing except to reinforce a childish sense of entitlement. Complaining doesn't help you get the knowledge you want. Only action will get that for you...That's called life...

 

Sacrifice is essential to spiritual learning...

 

When I was younger, it was assumed that in order to learn anything of value, one had to scrimp, save and sacrifice to learn anything. It was assumed and understood. I am amazed when I hear the internet generationers complain about how much money they have spent buying books and DVDs as though they should get a medal or something. I have no idea how much money I have spent over the last 20 years traveling around and paying teachers to train me. Perhaps because I did not grow up in the internet age that I didn't assume that everything was readily available and so I wasn't angry if things didn't work out. I assumed that failure was part of the process. In fact, I took it as a sign that I was making progress and that encouraged me to keep looking until I found what I was looking for... Guess what 20 years later, I have finally found my niche. If i expected to find it within only a few years, I would have given up and lost out big time...

 

So, I am going to make a dire prediction here and I would be very happy if I am wrong.... But here goes... I believe our current way of life is going to change drastically very soon. I believe that the internet will go down, Petroleum will become difficult or impossible to get, people won't be able to drive cars or get their food from giant grocery stores and our economic system will completely break down and return to a locally based system of bartering. Those who are not able to adapt and provide for themselves will have a very difficult time surviving...

 

For those who have never lived without having everything instantly available, who don't know how to sacrifice and adapt, those who complain about feeling they deserve everything according to their requirements... They will not survive...

 

Spiritual seekers... If you truly want to learn spiritual disciplines, you have to grow up.... You have to be self-sufficient... One of my first teachers told me... "The Universe is not interested in excuses. It is only interested in results." He was right...

 

There are a growing number of old timers on this forum who are silently leaving this forum in droves because they are tired of the trend that I have outlined here. As it is now, there are only a handful of us (that I know of) who post on this part of the discussion forum who have actual experience in real lineages with live teachers. I think that is sad. If we all leave, you will only be left with threads about aliens, nagas and semen retention techniques from books...

 

If you really want to learn this stuff, especially the high level stuff, you will need to learn about the kind of learning that can only be given through personal, physical and verbal transmission. No book or video can adequately give this... Unfortunately, that may mean that you may have to make some sacrifices, get up from behind the computer screen, meet some teachers and train old school style... Or you can continue to sit behind a computer and complain... and you will get exactly what you have now...

 

Anyway... just wanted to share some thoughts.... I hope this forum doesn't continue to disintegrate. I think it is a very valuable resource...

5ET

The trend towards instant gratification was begun with television. The idea that a problem can be presented and solved in 1/2 hour or even an hour is part of that programming which our TV civilization has internalized. this has become even more profound with the internet generation which is instantly gratified in so many more ways.

What is gong? as in gong fu or Qi gong.

Hard work and diligence performed over a long period of time.

is this the absolute opposite of instant gratification which you describe? Yes, absolutely.

My teacher has a simple Chinese expression - Heng teng.

Heng, loosely means Sacrifice. Teng means connection.

In order to make a connection you must make a sacrifice.

In our school this relates directly to making the Heng sound in various techniques which basically helps you connect to the Tantien. making the Heng(sacrifice) creates the Teng (connection), in this case the connection with your own center.

But this phrase has deeper meaning as well. Perhaps it also applies to Ming. I dont remember the phrase, but I learned it on TTB. It means having Ming with your teacher. Ming roughly means destiny or even Karma. I believe it is necessary to make the sacrifice and have good gong fu in order to achieve the Ming necessary to make connection with higher level instruction.

Therefore, apply gongfu to WHATEVER information you have available to you. I believe this will result in the old adage "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear"

5ET the problem with modern communication is that so many students can now contact you, but in fact THEY are not ready for YOU, even though they were able to make the phone call or more likely email. Despite making this superficial connection they have no desire to make the proper Heng (sacrifice) to make a real Teng (connection).

Thanks for your essay, I believe you are right on.

Craig

PS - 5ET and I are much nearer in age than the younger folks here (I'm in my late 40s)

TTFN

Well sloppy

I don't know how fast you type, but your replies were posted exactly 31 minutes after 5ET made his post.

How much reflexion did you actually take. How much time did you take to think about his perspective and not just react to how he didn't get YOUR perspective.

Yes, things are different for sure. Things change, for sure.

You seem to think that anything you can imagine can be had by open source on the internet. Maybe you are wrong! maybe the live interaction with a teacher who has actual experience can do something for you which books and dvd's and youtube videos cannot. I posit that you do not know what you do not know.

Your reactions to 5ET seem like just that, defensive reactions. Your sophistry is obviously highly developed and you have constructed quite a castle of rationalizations to avoid most of the points which 5ET is making.

The terrible truth is that the realities which you describe may be true, ie school, money, time employers expectations, and they may FOREVER proscribe you from any achievement in the arts you profess to be interested in. Sorry.

PS - One of my good friends who is only 10 years older than you travelled all the way from the east coast and transplanted himself on the west coast SOLELY in order to study with a teacher he had found out about. He continued to live near that teacher and eventually studied classical chinese medicine in large part because of this teacher. He achieved a lot by committing to this course of action.

Craig

I think you want this one from Shazi Daoren.

 

http://huanglao.org/neiye.htm

 

I have read 2 Chapters of it in the Harold Roth version and gave my thought.

To not taint my observation I will comment and read first the Harold Roth version

and then later read the Daoren Version to get a more insight and get my conclusion.

 

Q

Thanks That's the one.

Maybe even more polished than when I picked it up.

I too had noticed the Algae energy concept some years ago and had heard nothing else about it. This sounds really promising.

Thanks for the optimistic report.

Will be watching this and researching more.

Craig

My translation is by someone named Shazi Daoren, a pseudonym perhaps?

I find it often more direct and better than the Harold Roth. However I only just began to compare the two today.

Wish I knew how to link to this original text so I could properly attribute it.

Also, there is commentary by the translator on all 26 verses.

Craig

Hi all

Found it.

18 page Word Document. The link to this was posted at some point and I downloaded it.

PM if interested with email and I can email it out.

Craig