Thunder_Gooch

Oh, how I so completely disagree with this! Ridiculous,...just ridiculous.

care to explain?

I am am curious.

Not exactly.

Care to answer straightforward as the questions were posed?

Dorian,

I'd say it's safe to assume any teacher who refuses such a question hasn't attained any real abilities. I'd also say any teacher who claims to have abilities and doesn't submit to the rigors of a thorough scientific investigation is a fraud.

"How long has your guru been teaching?"

 

"Well, uh, over thirty years."

 

"And how many of his students have achieved enlightenment?"

 

"Well, uh..."

 

"That you know of personally?"

 

"Well, uh, I never..."

 

"That you've heard of?"

 

"It's not"

 

"That there were rumors of?"

 

"I don't think..."

 

"What is it they're doing, Martin? The recipe for enlightenment they're promoting - what is it?"

 

"Uh, well, meditation and knowledge, basically."

 

"And in thirty years they've never held someone up and said, 'Look at this guy! He's enlightened and we got him there!' In thirty years, they don't have one? Don't you think they should have, like, an entire army of enlightened guys to show off by now?"

 

"Well, it's not..."

 

"After thirty years they should have a few dozen generations of enlightened people. Even with only a quarter of them becoming teachers, they should have flooded the world by now, mathematically speaking, don't you think? I'm not asking all this as a teacher myself, mind you. I'm just asking as a consumer, or a consumer's advocate. Don't you think it's reasonable to ask to know a teacher's success rate? The proof is in the pudding, right? Didn't you ask them about the fruit of their teachings when you started with them?"

 

"Well, that's not..."

 

"Don't you think it's reasonable to ask? They're in the enlightenment business, aren't they? Or did I misunderstand you? Do they have something else going?"

 

"Nooo, but they..."

 

"If Consumer Reports magazine did a report on which spiritual organizations delivered as promised, don't you suppose that the first statistic listed under each organization would be success rating? Like, here are a hundred randomly selected people who started with the organization five years ago and here's where they are today. For instance, thirty-one have moved up in the organization, twenty-seven have moved on, thirty-nine are still with it but not deeply committed and three have entered abiding non-dual awareness. Okay, three percent - that's a number you can compare. But this organization of yours would have big fat goose egg, wouldn't they? And not just out of a hundred, but out of hundreds of thousands - millions, probably. Am I wrong?

- Jed McKenna - 'Spiritual Enlightenment:The Damnedest Thing'

mjj,

money talks and bullshit walks

mjj,

For all your years of searching and training what exactly do you have to show for it, besides meeting people and traveling?

Not exactly.

Care to answer straightforward as the questions were posed?

I am also curious about this. Have you developed any abilities?

I notice you teach both reiki and tummo. Is your tummo system based of what they call "reiki tummo"?

mjj,

get over yourself.

we don't care about you nearly as much as you think we do.

afaik you have nothing to show for all your years of "advanced" training.

It's third eye breathing basically. Even if max's practices are legit though, he isn't.

This raises an interesting point...anyone have any experiences with any teachers on this list? (besides Mantak Chia) I know one of them, but I am not his student and have never studied with him...just wanted to make that clarification.

 

http://www.daoistcenter.org/teachers.pdf

 

Anyway, if living the life as a hermit is what you feel is your calling, I say go for it, see if it works for you. I practice a form of Christian cultivation. It does not make much sense to me right now because all of the books are pretty heavy, but it's interesting to get a new spin on stuff I've studied in the Gospels.

 

I wanted to live a life that allowed me to practice some type of cultivation-- I guess I'm lucky to live in a place that considers itself a Christian nation in that it allows me to fly both above and below the radar. I am going to Seminary to become a Pastor. My school of cultivation does not advocate monastic life or living as a hermit. Actually, our goal is to attain siddhis to benefit humanity. I guess it would be like a buddhist who's goal is to become a bodhisattva. Of course the initial goal is to understand the ego, so that one does not misuse anything gained through their practices.

 

For me, it works. I enjoy having conversations about spiritual things. I grew up in the Church, but I don't tell people they will go to Hell outside of the Church. Yes, there are things I have to adhere to...dogmas, rules, and policies passed down from my denominational affiliation, but what is important to me is that people seek something more fulfilling than just pleasing the base desires.

 

So this is my story, I guess...sorry for messing up your thread! But yes, I want to spend the rest of my life meditating and cultivating. For me, the way to accomplish this is to become a minister. I get to help people, I get to console people in need of a friend, and I get to work with young people--all things I enjoy. I get to teach, although I don't claim to know much. I get to study. I meditate, I do exercises that are similiar to qigong--well it's breathing exercises, so I guess it is qigong! I'm not currently studying martial arts, but I will resume when I finish school.

 

What is important is that you find the best way to accomplish this--some days people get on my nerves, other days I love having people around me. I'm no guru when it comes to meditation, but I think as you progress with your practice, you will come to have some compassion for those folks that annoy the hell out of you right now. Good luck with what you're trying to do!

Prince,

In all honesty your the first Christian I've ever met that sounds like a Christian. I mean that as a compliment.

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

Mohandas Gandhi

I spoke with an attorney this afternoon regarding this idea. I was advised it would be a huge liability, and due to the super Christian conservative population in my area I would probably be looking at constant vandalism, and harassment. I guess he is probably right.

It was an interesting thought however.

I proposed an old and rich lady not for the sex but for the money.

This, to use your words, would "speed up the process"

 

YM

Couldn't do it. I really don't like the thought of being a jiggalo. Thanks for the advice however.

All of this just to leave the world and seek liberation? It's starting to sound like liberation isn't the actual goal here, and it's more of a laziness thing.

 

Why not just work a normal job, instead of conning people into giving you money for doing nothing? That way you will make money in an honest way with which you could buy land and build your retreat place. It'll probably be quicker and less troublesome, too.

Well if I form a group and get them involved in fund raisers once a month or every two months or get them to help me place donation cans at gas stations and other businesses all to get a center built, I don't see how this is being lazy on my part.

You may call me lazy for only wanting to work 2 days a week and spend the rest of my time meditating. But the path to that goal is going to be a lot of hard work.

I don't see this as conning anyone out of money as long as everything is handled legitimately and legally. I plan on seeing a property lawyer about this next week. As long as I offer weekly services to the public, and I really work hard at making it worth their time, I don't see any of this as unethical.

Who knows this idea may not work out, I may not be able to attract a large enough number of people to make it happen. In which case I either come up with a better idea, or someone else here does, or I continue working until I can afford my own property and home.

Opening a center i.e. setting up a business in a field of one's own interest is of course a legitimate thing.

 

Trying to avoid life responsibilities and doing only what one feels like by way of raising money from donations ("donations" for what, to set up a business ?) to buy lands under one's own name (but wasn't he intersted in meditating ?) and pretending to be a non-profit in buddhist/daoist fields (subjects of which he clearly has no clue) but of course maybe he will get a "Qigong certification" if necessary ...

 

LOL

 

YM

My end goal of meditating all day would be realized faster if I had help, why is this a bad thing? I can see a large range things I could do to make a legitimate living. Selling books, incense, and tea. Accepted donated possessions for an ebay thrift store. Offering qigong classes. Most likely I would still need to work 2 days a week to cover my personal expenses but I find this acceptable.

Why do you think I have no clue in buddhist and taoist philosophy? I may be an asshole, but I don't think I am ignorant.

Funny how you openly admit being lazy.

Actually more sad than funny ...

 

Move your ass and get yourself a job like everybody else instead of wasting people's time

 

YM

 

PS: as an option, since you seem to be young, find and old and rich lady to marry

I am celibate and have been for a few years, I don't get along well with other people. If I need sex bad enough I'll drive to Nevada and pay for it.

Next up, I work full time at the moment. I bring home about $1500 a month of which about half is usually saved. In my bank account right now I have $900.00 I buy gold coins and keep them in my safe deposit box, as of today I own over 8 ounces of gold, in a few more months I will own over $10,000.00 in gold coins assuming prices do not fluctuate wildly. When I get home I am required to do my chores, cook some food and socialize a bit, then I head off to meditate a few hours before I sleep, and then I wake up and repeat this process.

I don't plan on wasting peoples time. I believe I can offer a great service to people in my community and neighboring communities. I believe it would be a symbiotic relationship, and not parasitic as you imagine.

I plan on working until I have enough to buy land and build a house which is going to be a long long time. Having volunteers help me with fundraisers and donations etc would drastically speed up this process. Of course the catch would be I would have to run a legitimate service to the community at least once a week.

I fail to see what your issue with this is. Most likely unless I brought in enough money from qigong classes I would still have to work a job 2 days a week after the land purchased and the building built, and every other detail taken care of.

Maybe then call it a Taoism & Buddhism Center? Or a Taoism & Buddhism Group? something like a more recreational feeling?

 

That would be better than calling it a "temple" which means it have to hold rituals, ceremonies, and do things for people etc,. Which for sure is religious based. Which is not what you are looking for.

Thanks.

Also perhaps I could get certified in some simple qigong system like spring forest and offer classes a few days a week, if the center ever gets built

Are you a taoist or a buddhist?

I do not believe in all the Taoist and Buddhist rituals and superstitions, so in a religious sense I am neither. Philosophically however I guess I would be both. I don't see any inherent contradictions in the two philosophies.

Hello Bums,

This afternoon I am in a better mood, after much contemplation I envisioned a possible solution to my problem. I would like your input, advice and idea's. Please feel free to shoot my idea down, or tell me what you think even if it is negative.

In my area there are no Buddhist or Taoist temples for a 100 mile radius. So here is my game plan. Run newspaper ads in all the local papers for all the neighboring counties for a taoist/buddhist/qigong/meditation meetup and discussion group. I plan on having us meet every other Sunday at my counties community center, maybe even creating a group on meetup.com I am sure that it would attract a large number of people as it would cover at least 4-5 counties.

If all goes well, and I can attract a large following then perhaps we can start placing donation cups at all the local gas stations, and doing fund raisers. Local churches and forming churches use the same methods to pay for their expenses. I am thinking I could form some sort of nonprofit org and keep all the funds raised in a savings account. Eventually I am sure we would have enough money to buy land and build a temple.

I am not sure if it would be legal to have the land in my name or not, but if so then I would be guaranteed a home, and a livelyhood for the rest of my life. Even if this may take many years, it would still be faster than me working alone full time to afford a land and build a home.

I've been this way now for more than 10 years. I've always been a hermit, and that isn't likely to change any time soon. I enjoy life best when I have lots of free time alone. Time to read, meditate and relax, and keep my house clean. Ah, sounds like heaven.

THE REST OF YOUR LIFE!?!?

 

How old are you? Do you think that perhaps in 20-30-40-50- years you will be the same person with the same goals!?

 

Please, if you are young try to keep your options open for your self, do not close ANY open doors that are now offered to you

 

By assuming that you will always want/need/expect to live what seems an ideal life with your current life view and perspective...you may trap your self in an "ideal" world that was not in your actual best interest as a seeker or just a human being - to become attached to...

 

Being a spiritual seeker/practitioner can become pretty escapist for some folks and that is just too bad, so be mindful of your real intentions and goals before closing off opportunities that will not be offered in the future.

 

In other words the life you describe seems more ideal for an old timer rather than a healthy choice for a young man...

 

but you may be ideally suited for it right now - meditate on this more would be my advice-

 

love to all-Pat

Tease!

 

Any hints? As in Buddhist, Taoist, etc?

All belong to a different taoist school, not all are religiously taoist however. Also I am sure all of my teachers have been discussed in length here on TTB, and other forums. I am just not allowed to discuss my training in the systems.

-mpg

Kun Lun

Standing meditation

inner smile

microcosmic orbit

wild goose qi gong

 

etc

 

seems every time I chat to people or search the internet i fnd or hear about yet another practice, makes me wonder how many are actually needed. should you choose some complementary practices or should you devote yourself to just one?

 

what is the general opinion of people out there?

Wenwu,

Define your goal for your practice. Search for teachers who have accomplished your goal, and listen only to them. If you want to learn how to be a mechanic you wouldn't become an apprentice to an electrician. The same applies to spiritual pursuits. Most teachers like Max the kunlun guy are just newage douchebags who are in the business only to take your money. Be careful who's teachings you buy into. Try to find teachers who have actually accomplished something, besides certificates on their walls.

 

You need to study and figure out it is is you actually want.

Check

You said you want to stop the birth and death cycle? well first of all how do you know that this cycle even exists

If there is no such cycle that would imply either an atheist world view of oblivion after death, or a theistic world view of an eternal afterlife as a spirit. Either of these scenarios is acceptable.

let alone that you can stop it?

We can only do our best, I'll do my best and thats all I can do.

if you have 3 masters I don't know what you're doing here. you should go talk to them about it.

I didn't come here for any spiritual advice, I came here to ask real world advice, on changing my lifestyle.

neigong is the only 'validated system' ?

what have you been smoking my friend? have you not look at all into other traditions? the Tibetan system is very complete and powerful, validated by the many realized practitioners. there are also systems of Vedanta that are very powerful, and the West have a powerful arsenal as well. I prefer the Tibetans, they know what they are doing.

 

You need to study and figure out it is is you actually want. enlightenment is just a word, people have different definitions. You said you want to stop the birth and death cycle? well first of all how do you know that this cycle even exists let alone that you can stop it? furthermore who is this "me" that wants to stop the cycle? does that "me" exist?

 

if you have 3 masters I don't know what you're doing here. you should go talk to them about it.

I don't believe I said neigong was the only validated system, only that I had only seen a few systems validated. Tummo is a validated practice, more so than neigong even.

You have to admit that most of this information on the market is just newage bullshit, written by space cadets and charlatans to turn a buck.

If you want to learn any discipline in this life, you start by studying the techniques of masters of that discipline. I want to achieve liberation, so I seek masters who are they themselves liberated and can prove such. Seems reasonable to me, if you find a flaw in my logic please point it out.

I'd be interested in hearing about your experiences of masters in china and what schools they belonged to.

What do you mean by validated? Validated by a book? By a teacher? By personal experience?

 

Do you have the foundation of a strong, energetically sound body and mind? Do you have a teacher?

 

If you don't other opportunities may present themselves, and if you're not inflexible, you'll be able to take advantage of them. Other techniques in Qigong, Taiji, Yoga, and meditation can help you build a foundation which will later prove essential for neidan inner alchemy.

 

What is your goal? Are you motivated by dissatisfaction or passion?

My goal is stopping the death and rebirth cycle. I am motivated by dissatisfaction.

I have a strong physical frame, physically fit aerobically. I have no physical health issues. I cannot sit in full lotus, only half lotus. I have stopped training my legs and stretch daily before meditation for a few minutes, hopefully withing a few years sitting in full lotus will be possible.

I have a mental issue, but have an otherwise sound mind. I have recurring hypnagogic hallucinations of being paralyzed and having cold hands reach into my dantein, this is a common occurrence nightly usually. I have not decided if it is a recurring observation or a hallucination, in either case it seems mostly harmless and unavoidable. I am not willing to consider medication for this issue.

I have three masters at the moment. I can't discuss this issue more however.

This newage hippy spiritual scene is filled mostly with charlatans who literally just make shit up and deem themselves masters to sell books, and courses. Kunlun being a prime example.

If you have any recommendations on any other schools or systems I am willing to listen, if you feel they are valid. I'd like to know their success rates also. For example if lineage promises liberation, how many students have achieved liberation? Are they themselves liberated? Do they have any evidence to support such claims?