Iskote

On 4/21/2024 at 5:22 PM, salaam123 said:

I can generate water but still i cant light up the kidney jing. What else do i need?

 

Your mind. 

22 minutes ago, papasaturn said:

No special breathing aside from trying to keep the breath quiet and calm. No particular concentration either unless I feel a point of tension and I try to breathe into it to relax.

I don’t think so about it being a sickness, I feel pretty normal otherwise. Been exercising eating etc. normally. 

 

I see. Based on what you are saying, it doesn't sound like you are doing anything too extreme, then, when you are practicing. 

Definitely the fairly extensive itching and redness and red dots is not within normal types of effects from doing standing practice or meditation practice that I know of or have ever come across, personally. Those symptoms sound more to me like maybe an allergic reaction or some sort of illness symptoms, or something more along those lines. May not be related to your standing practice at all. I of course couldn't say for sure though, especially since I don't know you and your overall situation, and we are just chatting over the internet. Not sure what the cause might be there. Have you had any symptoms like that in the past prior to doing standing practice? 

34 minutes ago, papasaturn said:

I was probably a bit more forceful a couple of weeks ago pushing through some deep tension in my calves but lately I’ve been very relaxed, just sinking into the posture naturally and letting my body slightly adjust itself as time goes on.

 

I usually end up in Zhan Zhuang by the end of the practice, maybe 10 min with hands in front of the chest, it seems to relieve some tension I have in the shoulder blades. I generally come out of the practice feeling refreshed and with some deeper understanding. I believe I am progressing.

 

I will say I used to experience more warmth after the practice but now I actually feel more cold. I am always warm during the practice though. Also the itching never happens while I’m in it.

 

The itching is interesting though. It feels like a mosquito bite in that if I resist the urge to itch it feels less itchy but if I itch it, it feels more so and makes me feel itchy in other parts of my body.

 

As of right now the itching has spread to my neck, shoulders and waist. There are little red dots around my waist and on my lower back. It’s not really that uncomfortable unless I let myself itch it.

 

I will say I’ve noticed the more frustrated I get the itchier I get and the more I itch lol.

 

Assuming this may be a wood/liver/gallbladder issue due to that.

 

 

Just to confirm, are you doing any special sort of breathing while practicing or just doing natural breathing?

Are you doing any special concentration when practicing?

 

The itching you describe sounds like more than just the normal sort of minor itching sensation you can get from such practices. Sounds a bit excessive.

Also talking about seeing red dots on your waist and lower back is not a normal thing in my experience.

I have heard that measles is going around. Are you sure you don't have the measles or something like that?

 

On 3/5/2024 at 3:29 PM, papasaturn said:

Been doing wuji pose everyday for some time now but have recently been getting a lot of itching/redness along the ren mai (under chin, center of chest, navel and pubic area). I don’t feel this during the practice (which is 40 min to an hour), it happens randomly throughout the day but has been pretty consistent now.

Curious what it could be

 

Hello. It doesn't provide a whole lot of detail about what you are actually doing when you just say you are doing the wuji pose.

Are you doing some sort of special breathing practice or using strong focus on certain points when practicing, and that sort of thing?

 

A feeling of itchiness at places in the body is a fairly common thing to experience as a result of practicing meditation and qi cultivation practices. Also feeling sensations like coolness, warmth, heat, and vibrations, are fairly common as well.

Nothing to worry about there unless maybe if it is excessive. 

Redness on parts of your body is not so normal. If you are scratching at certain points where you feel itchy, such as maybe when you are sleeping, that could make it red.

 

Doing intense or very deliberate types of breathing and doing strong focusing on points on the body and that sort of thing is more likely to lead to undesirable issues.

When you finish your standing practice, you can place your hands over the lower dantian area with your palms facing inward for a minute and (gently) imagine excess qi returning to the lower dantian area.

 

I don't know exactly what you are doing, but here are a few general guidelines.

It is always a good idea to practice mediation and qi cultivation practices in a very natural and relaxed way.
You should be coming out of standing practice slowly and gently and you can do a little gentle massage on your arms and legs and body and on your face and neck.

In my experience, being relaxed, being natural, and not trying to direct or force results are the best way to approach these sort of practices. That is the practical meaning of 'do by not doing'.

 

 

 

On 3/2/2024 at 2:53 PM, ChiDragon said:

Qigong is a method of breathing that we practice.

Neigong is the internal strength that has to be acquired from Qigong or martial arts.

 

 

In my understanding, the modern day term 'qigong' is a term adopted in Communist China when the Chinese government began to strongly control what would and would not be allowed in regards to traditional Chinese beliefs and practices, and in regards to how the Chinese communist government wanted to control how Chinese people think about those practices. That's not to say that the term 'qigong' was necessarily not ever used prior to that time period, but I believe the term was at least not in common usage prior to communism taking hold in China. In the rigid Chinese communist government promoted terms, 'qigong' was to be thought of as a kind of healthy 'breathwork' and/or calisthenics like exercises. 

Of course anyone who has real experience with qi and qi cultivation would likely be aware that qi and qi cultivation does not  necessarily at all need to rely on any special breathing or air or any special body postures or movements.  There are various types of qi, and various ways of developing and working with qi. Special breathing is not a requirement in qi cultivation, although some practices do use it or even emphasize it.  

 

In regards to neigong, my understanding is that, yes, this term does come from martial arts traditions in China, and was focused on developing internal power in martial arts. Whether other traditions such as religious traditions also used the term of 'neigong' completely separate from martial arts training, I don't know. Neigong in my understanding was more associated with practices that are designed to develop 'above normal' martial arts skills and abilities. However, one might also be able to use abilities and skills developed from neigong training for healing or health promotion purposes, as well. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Dear friends,
Some time ago I shared the post below on another thread.
I stumbled upon it again recently, and I felt it could potentially help a lot of people.
That's why I'm reposting it now with some edits, as well as an "update" at the end of the original post.

...

 

Not in my realm of experience, but very interesting. Thanks for posting that!

 

On 2/26/2024 at 2:43 PM, thelerner said:

I read somewhere that the GF instructions had an oral component- teacher to student.  I'm inclined to agree.  That there's an ingredient X.. missing in the instructions.  

Course I go back and forth over the years over what is The Light.. metaphor, awareness.. literal.    

 

On 2/26/2024 at 6:10 PM, Cobie said:

@Taoist Texts do you think this is true? 
 

 

On 2/27/2024 at 12:30 AM, Taoist Texts said:

first of all it does not matter. with or without XXX GF is doable only for a select few not an average reader. Secondly, saying that a book is useless without XXX is bafflingly unreasonable. who would write a useless book? who would read a useless book?...idk ppl just keep saying the damnedest things...

 

 

Based on some research, it is thought that the 'The Secret of the Golden Flower' text was created using 'spirit writing', which is along the lines of 'channeling'. Apparently two different groups created the text through spirit writing, with the first group creating part of the text, and the second group taking the text from the first group some years later and adding on to it.

 

From Wikipedia:

"The Secret of the Golden Flower (Chinese: 太乙金華宗旨; pinyin: Tàiyǐ Jīnhuá Zōngzhǐ) is a Chinese Taoist book on neidan (inner alchemy) meditation, which also mixes Buddhist teachings with some Confucian thoughts. It was written by means of the spirit-writing (fuji) technique, through two groups, in 1688 and 1692.

 

Origins

Studies by Monica Esposito and Mori Yuria, provide documentary evidence that the book was produced by the spirit-writing (fuji) groups of two altars devoted to the deified Lü Dongbin: Bailong jingshe ("Pure Assembly of the White Dragon", 白龍精舍), and a branch of Gu hongmei ge ("Old Red Plum Hall", 古紅梅閣) in Piling. Members of both refer to as belonging to the school of Pure Brightness (Jingming dao, 淨明道), associated with the cult of the immortal Xu Xun. Previously, Chung-Yuan Chang had also studied the origin of the text as having been received through the "flying spirit pencil", as he stated in the 1956 Eranos lectures. The Secret of the Golden Flower became one of the best-known Taoist texts in the West as a widespread Chinese religious classic, following Richard Wilhelm's translation with commentary by Carl Gustav Jung, but receives little attention by Eastern scholars. 

 

At the beginning of the Qing dynasty, there were followers of Xu Xun who received texts on contemplative alchemical practices (internal alchemy) and self-cultivation through spirit writing. The Secret of the Golden Flower was initially received incompletely in a first group in 1688; it remained unfinished when seven of its recipients died. In 1692, it was continued by the other group. It is claimed that the teachings of Xu Xun were transmitted by intermediate spirits, such as Lü Dongbin, Qiu Chuji and Chuduan. As Xu Xun's writings had disappeared for generations, the text was considered by Pure Brightness members to require the founding of a new Taoist sect, which was called the "Ritual Lineage of Great Oneness". Pan Yi'an (彭伊安), one of the recipients of the work, describes the initial composition process of its first part:

 

    "As I remember, it was in the wushen year [1668] that our holy patriarch Chunyang [i.e., Lü] began to transmit the 'Instructions.' The seven people who made a commitment to him bowed deeply and obtained [his teachings]. None but these seven received this transmission. The most profound teaching was [expressed in] no more than one or two words. It could not be put into words and letters. Afterwards, the seven questioned the Patriarch in detail. As our holy patriarch spared no mercy in giving clarifications, [his teachings were] compiled for days and months. Eventually they composed a volume."

There are six different remaining editions of the text, and it was fundamental to several lineages of Taoism. It became a central doctrinal scripture of the Longmen school canon through popularization by Min Yide (1758-1836), who attributed to its importance as a "blueprint for healing of the world."

"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_of_the_Golden_Flower

 

 

 

I think we should not lump all standing meditation/zhan zhuang practices into one thing.

There are various different approaches and postures and practices out there from different sources and traditions which can also have different purposes, and which may well bring different types of results, that can loosely fall under 'standing practice'.

 

I have practiced the zhan zhuang 'wu ji' standing posture daily for periods of time such as for several month stretches with daily practice in the past.

I usually stand in the wu ji standing posture in one standing session for about 30 to 60 minutes or so.

I don't do any special breathing or mental concentration.

I just stand as naturally and relaxed as I can and keep a relaxed awareness on what I am doing.

My experience with this particular standing practice is it very noticeably builds and circulates qi, and can therefore help with some types of health problems and can help to improve one's overall health and well being, in general.

It is the most effective 'qigong' practice that I have personally come across over many years. Please note I said 'personally'.

That is my personal experience with wu ji zhan zhuang practice. 

 

In my experience and view, for males, at least, you need to be celibate to get the best results with such practice.

Younger men may be able to have sex occasionally and still get half decent results; but, for older men,

in my view you would need to be pretty much celibate to get noticeable results beyond just strengthening muscles and such from this sort of practice. However, your mileage may vary.

 

A side note: Regarding the term 'daoism'. In my experience and understanding, there is no one coherent thing called 'daoism'.

There is a wide array of practices and traditions that may fall under the broad umbrella term of 'daoism', and those

many different practices and traditions can vary widely in regards to viewpoint and actual practices.

I always wonder when people say 'daoism holds to this or daoism holds to that', as that is just not how it is in my experience.

IMO, not only should you narrow down any statement about 'daoism' to a very specific tradition, but really you need to narrow it down to a specific teacher/practitioner when saying this is how they see or do things.

Just my point of view.

All the best.

21 hours ago, Alpha said:

I just wanna know that it's real or not or just I'm wasting my time on internet this whole month??

 

Yes, in my experience qi is very real. I feel it all the time in my own practice, and I have also felt the strong effects of qi when emitted to me from a few different skilled qigong practitioners. 

 

One qigong practitioner was able to emit a strong qi field from the palm of his hand. I felt it as a strong field sensation even though his hand was two feet or more away from my body, and it had a very noticeable effect on me. 

 

Another qigong practitioner I visited could emit qi from his finger tips into an acupuncture needle when giving acupuncture to me. It felt like an electric current sensation coming from the acupuncture needle where it was inserted in my body. I don't believe he was using any trick. 

 

Another qigong practitioner could produce very strong 'electric' qi, and when he touched me with his hand I felt like I was getting a strong electric shock. 

 

Another qigong practitioner I went to see was able to generate a lot of heat from his hand when emitting his qi.

 

All the best. 

 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 12:55 PM, Gerard said:

Stay away from:

2. Methods that focus on bogus practices like Microcosmic Orbit

 

 

No, 'microcosmic orbit'  can be naturally occurring and also can be a result of certain types of qigong/neigong/meditation practice. 

Also, in my experience, what is called 'microcosmic orbit' can be defined differently in different schools and be different at different stages, in regards to the form of energy circulated and how it is done. 

 

Beware of those who make blanket statements and who don't provide any details and clarification about what they are saying. 

Those who speak from real experience and with real knowledge and wisdom are rare to encounter.  

Taking everything with a grain of salt, whether it comes from forums such as this, or from books, or from 'teachers', and 'masters' is always a good idea.   

 

On 6/14/2022 at 1:52 PM, Lidolon said:

Coming from a very analytical but open mindset (I’m a mathematician by training, after all, and in maths any set of axioms is game, provided they are coherent), I’m both extremely curious and slightly baffled about the energetic phenomena that define qigong, neigong, neidan, etc.

I’m curious to see if I can experience them, and  then if they can be useful, as it is said they are, for health, longevity and cultivation of the mind (I’ve no interest whatsoever in martial arts). 

 

 

 Here is one very simple qigong practice which I believe is safe to practice at home without a teacher, if practiced as described. 

Here is a link to a post I made in the past describing the wu ji zhan zhuang practice

It is the most simple and effective qigong practice which I have personally experienced. 

You should begin to feel effects of qi developing within a few months, but everyone is different. 

If you are interested, click on the link below which states "Iskote replied to a topic" to see the description of the practice. 

 

9 hours ago, 鞏三孝 said:

 

While observing the development of this discussion, I have a feeling that the topic of hsuan kuan is slightly out of reach for many people. It is easy to discuss some notions on the distant boundaries of this topic, but it seems that it is difficult for people to cut directly to its core. Is it an issue of affinity? Interest? Destiny? I don't know, but it is fascinating to observe. 

 

Maybe hsuan kuan will always be a topic that a small minority of people who like Taoism can go deep into. If this is the case, there is no need to force people to deepen their interest, and such an effort probably would not succeed. People with karma or affinity or destiny related to hsuan kuan will naturally encounter the teachings. When the time is not yet ripe, it will likely only remain distant and obscure. 

 

Hello 鞏三孝, 

 

Since hsuan kuan is an abstract concept in neidan, it is likely many people won't be able to comment much on it, unless they are very familiar and experienced in neidan. Neidan is really about the practice and experience and results. Since many people here probably do not practice neidan, it really just seems an abstract concept. 

Also, you put the topic as '玄關/Hsuan Kuan/Mysterious Gate', but in your original post you commented about wide differences in daoist views and practices and how daoists tolerate different schools, and about correct and incorrect practices, etc. That opened the door for for a much broader discussion.  

 

8 hours ago, 鞏三孝 said:

 

Actually, the method taught by Mr. Yang in the video also includes the need to focus on the lower abdomen.

...

 

By the way, usually teachers will teach students to just let those “all kinds of worldly matters and imaginings” or physical discomforts just come and go, then， go back to the method. But sometimes this is easier said than done. No wonder practice is not a matter of a day or two, it takes a lifetime.

 

 

Hello 鞏三孝. 

 

Well, what Yang Hai said was: "Just be aware of the lower dantian area, and keep your mind relaxed."

I personally differentiate between "be aware" and "focus on". 

For me, the first involves passive awareness. 

The second involves active intention. 

It may seem like a subtle difference, but in my experience it is not the same.

One is passive and one is active. 

 

Regarding the worldly thinking mind, yes, I don't think at earlier stages, at least, one can ever stop it, but in my experience we can become somewhat disengaged from the chatter and imaginings such that even though it is going on it becomes more 'distant'.  Like it is in another room some distance away.   As for shifting around,  I will move a little if something becomes a bit too uncomfortable, but teachers I have learned sitting meditation from have advised to aim towards full stillness, so that is the long term goal.  

 

All the best...

 

1 hour ago, 鞏三孝 said:

 

Thank you for the sharing. And what do you think about the video?

 

Hello 鞏三孝.  I did comment on the content of the video, but in an abstract way.  

He explains that there are various different interpretations of the concept of 'xuan guan', and gives his own view on it as well, as well as gives his view on the traditional idea that such knowledge should be kept secret. 

I am familiar with this man and his videos. He is also an internal martial arts teacher, and he has many videos on internal martial arts as well. I think his videos are interesting and informative, but I am also aware that there are various other points of view, as well.  

 

The more I learn about neidan and related, the more I become inclined towards the approach of sitting (or standing or lying down) and 'forgetting'. Sitting is usually the 'traditional' posture for such practice, however. He mentioned in the video, that, in his view,  when you reach the stage of 'xuan guan', the primordial energy cultivates itself, or to that effect.  

To reach the state of xuan guan, he said that you basically 'just sit'. In other words, actual wu wei. 

No movement, no intention, no direction. It comes about eventually when you stop all intention and movement and just sit. Of course, to do that (release all conscious intention and control) for most people may take many years of 'laying the foundation'.  As simple as it may seem, most will not be able to do it so easily. The mind will be running over all kinds of worldly matters and imaginings, or one will feel inclined to be shifting around and be unable to stay still for very long, etc. 'Laying the foundation' itself is probably interpreted in various ways as well by different people and in different systems.  

 

 

Yes, we all have different backgrounds and experience and different viewpoints, so we all interpret and see things differently. Each person will go with what seems to work for them at any point in time. Sometimes we look back on things we have done and think what a complete waste that was or how wrong that was, and wonder why we were so foolish to have wasted so much time on that, or wonder how we could have been so wrong and not realized it at the time, etc.  It is because our views and understanding are always evolving that we are able to look back and see things differently. Whatever seems to be working for us at any point in time is still a learning experience, even if we look back later and see it is wasted time or wrong actions. Sometimes we may learn very slowly, or sometimes we may learn quicker. It just depends on where any given individual is at any point in time in their life, and their background experience and views. Likewise, there are all sorts of systems and practices out there with widely different perspectives and goals. What seems like bad practices or wrong views to one person may seem very attractive to another person, and both people's point of view may possibly change at a later point in time on the matter as both people's perspective and understanding changes over time.  

 

Is there good and bad and right and wrong in this dualistic world? 

Of course there is. This is a dualistic world. 

However, most people realize that clearly defining good and bad and right and wrong in every aspect of various things in this world is not always so straightforward. Not everything is clearly definable as completely good or completely bad, or clearly definable as clearly right or clearly wrong. There can be many different factors to consider in making such judgement calls.  

 

Nevertheless, in my view, I would say a good rule of thumb is, based on any given person's best judgement,  always try to act in a way to do that which does not do harm to others or to our self, as best as the individual can determine.  As our views and understanding changes and grows over time. hopefully in the long run we are moving in an overall 'positive' direction and making better decisions and gaining a better perspective on things.

 

So, in regards to different practices and differing views and interpretations in different systems,  it makes sense that there are going to be potentially widely differing views and interpretations and different practices out there, and also makes sense that different people will be 'attracted' to different things. 

 

A person may have direct experience with or knowledge of a given practice or system or viewpoint, and, based on their personal experience and understanding they may view that practice or system or certain views associated with that system as bad or wrong. In a case where a person has such direct experience or real knowledge with something, I see nothing 'wrong' with that person expressing their view about that practice or system, as long as they do it respectfully, if they truly believe that it is harmful or incorrect and want to warn others. However, to continue harping on that same point over and over is probably not going to be productive, and may well just lead to increased strife with others who may disagree. I think most of us can agree that strife and negativity are not good for anyone, so when it arises, it is time to move on. 

 

In the end,  all any person can do is go with what seems productive and helpful or right for them. We can't force others to gain a better understanding just with words, so, if someone is not open to a different point of view, then there is no point wasting energy on the matter and falling into conflict and negativity. By all means, share your experience and knowledge with others if you like, and if they are open to it, but letting it go if conflict and negativity is starting to arise is probably a wise decision.  

 

P.S. On a somewhat different note, I think working on being less egocentric, and working on improving one's overall perspectives and focus, and working on improving how one interacts with others, etc., might all be classified under "xing" cultivation. While working on your body health and qigong and neigong, etc. is associated more with "ming" cultivation. That may not be entirely 'correct', however, and, as always, different traditions out there probably have differing perspectives on this, as well. 

 

Yes, hard tp put one's finger on traditions that traditionally kept their actual practices secret, and which only passed on the teachings orally to a small select group of students from generation to generation.  

 

I think traditional neidan is not really so suitable anyway for most people who live a 'normal' family life and work a full time job, etc., since neidan requires a real commitment to probably at least a few hours a day of regular daily practice, and the traditional neidan practices I am familiar with require the practitioner to be celebate.  I think for that reason there are probably not that many people out there in the West who are really truly committed to practicing neidan on a daily basis, unless you consider systems like Mantak Chia's system with sexual practices included to be 'traditional neidan'.  I think some might consider that to be more of a 'left side road' type practice, but I really don't know how such practices fit into the big picture. I am also differentiating here from some practices which some people call 'dan dao' these days, as it is not clear to me at all if such 'dan dao' practices may really be closely related to traditional neidan practices at all, and whether such practices are not just something created in more current times but which 'market' them self off of the 'internal alchemy' theme. A traditional system should actually be able to trace a clear lineage to real teachers back though time. Someone just claiming some lineage name and maybe some teacher's name, in no way in itself guarantees a genuine traditional lineage, of course. 

 

At any rate, in my mind anyway, for certain you can't just read through old very cryptic texts like the Cantong Qi and Wuzhen Pian and realistically expect to understand how to practice neidan, or understand clearly how to differentiate different levels, etc. Such texts were intentionally written very symbolically and cryptically.   However, that's just my point of view.  To each their own.   

 

 

On 5/30/2022 at 6:39 AM, awaken said:

WuZenPian and Chantongqi must be read

 

 

 

These writings have been translated into English. 

Here are references to English translations of these books, as well as a few other interesting books on neidan in English. There may be other English translations of these texts. 

I think there is nothing wrong with reading these types of writings. 

I think it is not advisable to try to practice neidan without the guidance of an accomplished teacher. 

 

Cantong Qi:
The Seal of the Unity of the Three: A Study and Translation of the Cantong Qi, the Source of the Taoist Way of the Golden Elixir
by Fabrizio Pregadio
https://www.amazon.com/Seal-Unity-Three-Translation-Cantong/dp/0984308288/ref=sr_1_1

 

Under an allusive poetical language and thick layers of images and symbols, The Seal of the Unity of the Three (Cantong qi) hides the exposition of the teachings that gave birth to Taoist Internal Alchemy, or Neidan.
Traditionally attributed to Wei Boyang and dated to about 150 CE, The Seal of the Unity of the Three is concerned with three major subjects — Taoism (the way of "non-doing"), Cosmology (the system of the Book of Changes), and Alchemy — and joins them to one another into a unique doctrine. The charm of its verses, the depth of its discourse, and its enigmatic language inspired a large number of commentaries and other works, and attracted the attention not only of Taoist masters and adepts, but also of philosophers, cosmologists, and poets.
In addition to a complete translation, this book contains a detailed introduction to the history and the teachings of The Seal of the Unity of the Three, explanations of each of its sections, and notes on its verses. Also included are several tables and pictures, an index of main subjects, and the complete Chinese text.

Wuzhen Pian:
Awakening to Reality: The "Regulated Verses" of the Wuzhen Pian, a Taoist Classic of Internal Alchemy 
https://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Reality-Regulated-Classic-Internal/dp/0984308210/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0

 

Awakening to Reality (Wuzhen pian) is one of the most important and best-known Taoist alchemical texts. Written in the eleventh century, it describes in a poetical form, and in a typically cryptic and allusive language, several facets of Neidan, or Internal Alchemy. This book contains a translation of the first part of the text, consisting of sixteen poems, which provide a concise but comprehensive exposition of Neidan. In addition to notes that intend to clarify the meaning of the more obscure points, the book also contains selections from Liu Yiming's commentary, dating from the late 18th century, which is distinguished by the use of a lucid and plain language.

Table of Contents

Preface, vii

Introduction, 1
Translation, 21
Selections from Liu Yiming's Commentary, 75
Textual Notes, 89

Glossary of Chinese Characters, 95
Works Quoted, 101

 

 

Related to the Wuzhen Pian: 
Foundations of Internal Alchemy: The Taoist Practice of Neidan
by Wang Mu (Author), Fabrizio Pregadio 
https://www.amazon.com/Foundations-Internal-Alchemy-Taoist-Practice/dp/0984308253/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0

 

Originally written for Chinese readers, this book provides a clear description of the Taoist practice of Internal Alchemy, or Neidan. The author outlines the four stages of the alchemical practice and clarifies several relevant terms and notions, including Essence, Breath, and Spirit; the Cinnabar Fields; the "Fire Times"; and the Embryo. The book is based on the system of the Wuzhen pian (Awakening to Reality), one of the main sources of Internal Alchemy, and contains about two hundred quotations from original Taoist texts.
Table of Contents
Foreword, vii
INTRODUCTION, 1
     The Basis: Essence and Spirit, 3
STAGES OF THE ALCHEMICAL PRACTICE IN AWAKENING TO REALITY, 11
     The Four Stages, 13
     "Laying the Foundations," 15
          Main Points in the Practice of "Laying the Foundations," 20
          The Functions of Essence, Breath, and Spirit, 36
          Terms Related to the "Coagulation of the Three Treasures," 52
          Conclusion of the Stage of "Laying the Foundations," 63
     "Refining Essence to Transmute it into Breath," 65
     "Refining Breath to Transmute it into Spirit," 99
     "Refining Spirit to Return to Emptiness," 109
CONCLUSION, 119
     The "Arts of the Way," 121
Tables, 123
Glossary of Chinese Characters, 133

Liu Yiming: 
Cultivating the Tao: Taoism and Internal Alchemy (Masters) (Volume 2) 
by Liu Yiming (Author), Fabrizio Pregadio  (Translator)
https://www.amazon.com/Cultivating-Tao-Internal-Alchemy-Masters/dp/0985547510/ref=pd_sbs_sccl_2_2/143-1925298-7462724

 

This book contains a complete translation of one of the main works by the eminent Taoist master Liu Yiming (1734-1821). Divided into 26 short chapters and translated here for the first time, Cultivating the Tao is at the same time a comprehensive overview of the basic principles of Taoism and an introduction to Taoist Internal Alchemy, or Neidan, written by one of the greatest representatives of this tradition.
Liu Yiming was an 11th-generation master of the Longmen (Dragon Gate) lineage. Having recovered from severe illness in his youth, he undertook extended traveling that led him to meet his two main masters. In 1780, he visited the Qiyun mountains, in the present-day Gansu province, and settled there. He devoted the second half of his life to teaching and writing, and to charitable activities including restoring shrines and buying burial ground for the poor. His works mainly consist of writings on Neidan and of commentaries on major Neidan scriptures.
Few other masters have illustrated the relation between Taoism and Internal Alchemy as clearly as Liu Yiming does in this book. Grafting Internal Alchemy into the teachings of the Book of the Way and Its Virtue (Daode jing) and of the later Taoist tradition, he shows how the way of the Golden Elixir can lead to the highest state of realization according to the Taoist principles.
Cultivating the Tao is vol. 2 in the "Masters" series of Golden Elixir Press.
Original title: Xiuzhen houbian.
Contents
Introduction
TRANSLATION
   Preface
   1    Precelestial Essence, Breath, and Spirit
   2    Postcelestial Essence, Breath, and Spirit
   3    Precelestial Breath of True Unity
   4    True and False Body and Mind
   5    True and False Nature and Existence
   6    Precelestial and Postcelestial Yin and Yang
   7    Internal and External Five Agents
   8    Internal Medicine and External Medicine
   9    Great and Small Reverted Elixir
   10  The Operation of the Auspicious and the Inauspicious
   11  Furnace and Tripod in the Initial and the Final Stages
   12  Internal and External Fire Phases
   13  The Other House and My House
   14  The True Initial Flow
   15  Refining the Nine Tripods
   16  The One Opening of the Mysterious Barrier
   17  The Ebb and Flow of Celestial Net
   18  Giving and Taking Life, Punishment and Virtue
   19  Superior Virtue and Inferior Virtue
   20  Doing and Non-Doing
   21  Zi, Wu, Mao, You
   22  Life and Death, Being and Non-Being
   23  Precelestial and Postcelestial Kan and Li
   24  Laying the Foundations for Refining Oneself
   25  Internal and External Companions
   26  Exerting One’s Mind to Inquire into the Principles
Glossary of Chinese Characters
Works Quoted

Daoist Internal Alchemy history and overview: 
The Way of the Golden Elixir: An Introduction to Taoist Alchemy (Occasional Papers Book 3) 
by Fabrizio Pregadio  (Author) 
https://www.amazon.com/Way-Golden-Elixir-Introduction-Occasional-ebook/dp/B07NTP8151/ref=sr_1_2

 

Taoist alchemy has a history of more than two thousand years. Its two main branches — Waidan (External Alchemy) and Neidan (Internal Alchemy) — share part of their doctrinal foundations but differ in the practices. This ebook outlines the history, lineages, and main doctrines and practices of the Taoist alchemical tradition.
 

 

54 minutes ago, steve said:

 

When I was engaged in Daoist practices I recall my teacher warning us not to discuss our experiences with other students until we reached a certain point in our training which took a few years. I also recall that he was careful to never describe what we should expect to experience in our practice and he rarely spoke about long term goals, never in any serious detail. He was very firm about us discovering the landmarks along the way for ourselves which he would verify and this would be the basis for further instruction. I suspect this is partly because our experiences of progress in cultivation are very personal and unique to each of us as practitioners. This is largely related to the fact that much of our progress is related to what obstacles there are in us, be they physical, emotional, energetic, etc…  I remember several times asking him to recommend something to read and he would tell me that reading was a complete waste of time if I was interested in Daoist cultivation. He felt that any tim e spent reading and studying was wasted time better spent practicing. 

 

Yes, that is a traditional way these arts were taught. If you tell a student what to expect, that may lead the student to subconsciously try to reproduce those things. Such things engage the mind, but in many such practices often you want to try to do the opposite and disengage the 'ordinary' mind. However, I think most people these days would like to have at least a general overview of where a practice should be taking a person, as otherwise you wouldn't even know what you are working towards. I think most modern teachers are more inclined to at least give such an overview of what the purpose of certain practices are, as it isn't like olden times where one is supposed to just trust their teacher blindly and do whatever they say without even knowing what the purpose might be. Bummer for the students in those days who ended up with a bad teacher.  

20 minutes ago, steve said:

I think that one potentially serious obstacle on the path is developing too fixed a notion of what it is we are after, be that the goal or the method. It is fine if one is working directly with a lineage holder who can accurately point and guide us, not so much if we are trying get that information from reading classics without expert guidance or extrapolating from less authoritative sources. I think one of the most valuable aspects of working with a credible teacher, preferably a lineage holder, is that we can have certainty in the way and the direction we need to go. Otherwise there is the potential for an enormous amount of wasted time and energy. The adage comes to mind - miss by an inch, miss by a mile. My training in both Daoist alchemy and Tibetan methods has involved a great deal of precision. No way I could have possibly extracted sufficiently accurate instruction from reading classics even if I were a native speaker of Chinese and Tibetan, let alone trying to translate into a different language with dictionaries or (cough) Google translate. Even professional translators miss the mark if they’ve not had personal instruction in the methods, the view, and the expected signs and results. Caveat emptor!

 

Yes, it is commonly advised that one should find a good accomplished teacher if you want learn things like neigong and neidan, and the same for various types of meditation, beyond just more basic things. I also think that is good advice. 

 

8 hours ago, Nintendao said:

The best kind of spontaneous move, is when you automatically go to help someone. Like before you even have a chance to talk yourself out of it, you extend a hand to help an elderly person step up, if you notice them walking with a cane for instance. This way of growing your de, can shine in your heart even more.

 

I guess it is something of a generational thing, but, for older generations, offering to help out someone who you see could use a helping hand, whether it is a senior or anyone else of any age,  would be an automatic thing that people would do without thinking about it. It's just the way it used to be. When I see the way many younger people behave these days, frankly it is kind of shocking for me to see. I can remember a couple of decades ago living in a very large city and seeing younger people on subways and buses sitting in seats and not ever offering their seats to very elderly people, or a single younger person taking up an entire seat and not allowing anyone else to sit there.  These days I see younger people using all kinds of foul language in public and in general acting very disrespectful of others, and they are seemingly oblivious of the concept of consideration of others.  On a few occasions when I have mentioned this sort of thing to younger people to see what they think about such things, they look at me like they think I am joking or crazy.   The world really has been changing a lot in the last 100 years or so, and in my view, a lot of that change is not so good. I know younger people tend to roll their eyes when they hear elderly people pointing such things out, but those younger people may understand more when they get older them self... Not all change in this world is for the better. Not by a long shot. 

9 hours ago, 鞏三孝 said:

 

There are many teachers in Taiwan who will teach you spontaneous gong for no money or very low tuition. Some teachers and groups have a fairly deep knowledge of Taoism. However, the effect of "immortality" achieved through this is still unbelievable. There are many people in the world who practice spontaneous gong. As far as I know, they all eventually grow old and die the normal way.

 

Hello 鞏三孝. I personally am inclined to think those sort of spontaneous qigong / dan dao type systems probably don't relate very closely to traditional 'neidan'. I don't know a whole lot about them however, so I don't know for sure. I don't know if those type of systems are something relatively new which have been created in modern times outside of mainland China, or what the actual story is with them. The teacher I mentioned previously does not describe any info about what the history of what he is teaching actually is, and I have never heard of this 'dan dao' term except only relatively recently, so not sure at all where that is coming from. 

 

Spontaneous qigong is not really for me, at any rate. I have never had any inclination towards spontaneous movements when practicing qigong. My own personal impression is the movements may actually be subconsciously driven based on expectation of how one is supposed to react. I don't know though. Maybe there is more to it than that. Just not my cup of tea, however. 

 

In regards to physical 'immortality', there are old stories of some people in China who supposedly lived considerably longer than normal life spans, but no way to tell if that was very exaggerated or just made up stories or not. Current day neidan teachers seem to usually talk about immortality as being really just longevity, or they may say it is just symbolism for reaching high accomplishment in neidan practice. One famous daoist is claimed to have lived somewhere around 250 years or even more, named Li Qingyun (AKA Li Ching-Yuen or Li Ching-Yun). Many people here have probably already heard of him. 

Li Ching-Yuen - Wikipedia

 

There was a yogi in India who some claimed lived for around 250 years or even much longer by some. There is a video of him on youtube in his later years not long before he passed on. He was all bent over at the waist when he walked, but I think the story was that some old people remembered this yogi being around as an old man when they were young children, and supposedly stories of this yogi being around for hundreds of years. Likely no way to say for sure how old he really was when he died though.  

250 Year Old Devraha Baba of Vrindavan (Very Rare Footage)

(There is a loose translation of the video in the video's description). 

On 5/30/2022 at 11:53 AM, Shadow_self said:

10k seems a bit excessive...I know with WLP a lot of it is hotel and translator fees

 

When practicing qigong/meditation, I have never had the inclination to start spontaneously physically moving around, other than the occasional sudden slight body adjustment. I am doubtful spontaneous qigong would be suitable for me. 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

A lot of Siddhi are developed though neigong to be honest. The higher level stuff you see in neidan is a lot weirder, and not so easily "quantified" for want of a better word...especially that which relates to perception.

 

Honestly, as I understand it, you cannot do neidan without neigong though. The latter creates the space and conditions for the work to be undertaken. You cannot make a meal without the correct utensils, your kitchen should be clean and well organized,..then we can talk about ingredients, preparation and finally cooking. I think the symbolism here is apt.

 

Yes this is correct...Wang Liping usually does a certain type of Qi emission where he creates a field that makes other peoples fields align with it, they harmonize...so as a byproduct of just being there the work will be greatly amplified.

 

This is what you pay 4k plus for....a lot of people just don't understand whats happening or are too inexperienced to tune in and figure out whats going on.

 

Yes, from what little I know about neidan practices, it does involve a specialized type of neigong. I don't know if all neidan schools approach it that way, however. 

 

Have you attended any workshops with Wang Liping? 

I am a bit leery of modern day teachers who charge big bucks for their workshops, although I have only heard of good things about Wang Liping. I can see that charging a bit higher fee may help to weed out people who are only dabblers or who are just there out of curiosity; however, charging very high fees does tend to favor people who are more well off, and for people who are not well off it can potentially bring them some financial hardship, so I am quite turned off from that sort of thing. Maybe that pricing for Wang Liping's workshops is more set by the people who organize the workshops who are trying to make some profit for them self through those workshops? Not sure how that all works. 

 

I recently came across a teacher from Singapore who teaches a type of spontaneous qigong and also what he calls "dan dao", as well. In his system the teacher apparently does a type of qi transmission for a student at different stages. Out of curiosity, I asked him what he charges students to learn his system. He said he charges $10,000 Singapore dollars (a little over $7000 USD, I believe) for a student to learn just the first level of his qigong. This whole commercialization thing in modern times of these types of practices turns me right off, personally. If a teacher really wants to help people, putting students under huge financial stress to learn from the teacher is definitely not helping the students, in my view. Rich people will be able to pay such fees without too much issue, but that is just not financially feasible for many people. 

 

 

 

35 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

demonstrate what, for example?

 

Although this might not apply directly to neidan teachers specifically, some qigong and internal martial arts teachers I have encountered over the years were able to demonstrate to me very convincingly that they had a high degree of skill with qi manipulation, and could use that ability to help their students make better progress. Since the early stages of neidan, from what I understand,  are usually focused on opening up the meridians and channels and building up one's qi, I would be inclined to think the same sort of thing can be applied to neidan practitioners. 

I would think that in the initial stages of neidan, students may need assistance and guidance with dealing with qi blockages and imbalances, and having a teacher who can directly assist with such things can be really helpful. 

 

In general though, as another example, if a teacher is telling you that neidan practice should give you robust health, and the teacher doesn't look very healthy at all, that would seem to be a warning sign that something is probably not right. 

 

I recall some students of Wang Liping in the past have stated that he has apparently used his abilities during workshops to help his students make better progress. Students are left with the impression that something out of the ordinary occurs during his workshops. I haven't been to one of his workshops, so I can't personally vouch for that though. 

 

In my own experience, teachers I have met who have a high degree of qi skill, were able to demonstrate that in various ways.  It's not like you walk up to them and say, "show me what you can do", but in the course of interacting with them over time, it becomes obvious that they do have unusual skills. My own view is someone who is accomplished in neidan is probably going to have some such types of unusual abilities ,and that should likely become obvious over time. Just my own point of view. 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I think the embryo is specific ( As an example, I know there is a near identical end goal in Alchemical Buddhism)

 

According to Nathan the elixir can change by context...though there is nine in WLPs lineage...I've seen that number thrown around a lot...so it may be the case it is an objective number...but then, perhaps, all schools don't work on all elixirs...Hard to tell

 

A good distinction to make would be the one you made above regards the different practices...

 

Yes, my impression is that there may be notable differences between different schools in approach and even with basic concepts, but not sure how much those differences may be. Traditionally, most of this stuff was kept secret with any writings on the topic written in deliberate cryptic symbolism, so its hard to say exactly how closely different traditions compare. When you also consider that the Chinese cultural revolution pretty much wiped out much of these practices in China for a number of years except for some few who may have continued to practice in private, its anyone's guess regarding how closely to original practices whatever practices that have survived today are. From what I have been able to gather from some of the offerings out there in recent years, it does appear that there can be quite different practices under the name of internal alchemy, although there may be a common underlying theme to some extent to internal alchemy practices. Considering that many of these practices were traditionally kept secret, that just emphasizes how difficult it can be for a prospective student to try to determine what might be authentic traditional practices and what might be considered heretical practices or outright made up practices. 

 

I think though that generally traditional neidan requires quite a commitment in time, and that is why it was mostly practiced by 'monks'  who could devote the time to it throughout their life. Hard for a modern day person who works a full time job to commit to such practices, I think.