farmerjoe

So, some people may have fallen by the wayside for more serious cases. That isn't what we wanted, but that can happen when you deal with as many people as we did.

 

... so please quit complaining about what you didn't get. There was a lot going on.

 

There are people with way bigger problems than any of you, believe it or not.

Some people that have fallen by the wayside may become serious cases. The suicide may or may not be a rumor but there are people that have been hurt just the same, not only from the way Kunlun was taught,but long before it. These things seem to follow or be a repeating pattern of broken relationships and poor judgment with this teacher. All of this comments on the teaching style and lack of commitment to the students. This theme will continue to be repeated with this teacher, and may become a pattern for the students, from what I have read that seems to already be the case.I appreciated all the material in this thread and wish nothing had been deleted or censored. Charity begins at home, when it doesn't people complain. None of you wanted any of this to happen, but from what I read it seems to me that the understanding was always there that it would.Joe.

-O-

Please read what you wrote:

I am reluctantly adding my two cents to this....

 

Self, identity, opinion etc. are all (from the perspective of meditation) structures (form) given to energy. This is necessary as the ego, self, identity becomes the vehicle or container for experience (it creates the space or room to reflect). Without it self awareness (in an ontological sense) would not be possible. As energy builds the structure of the self becomes malleable, a little unstable then eventually releases.

 

The release feels wonderful as now there is more room to move, more access to energy. Understanding simplifies and more energy(attention) is available for present moment experience. The tendency when this occurs (during the point of instability) is to throw more structure up. After all the structure is the ego and it will fight for its existence - and frankly the experience feels very much like a break down. If the practitioner allows the new structure to form (by not surrendering into it, and not or by placing meaning on the experience) then partial insight are experienced. This is because the new structure is slightly larger than the last.

 

The key to recognising when this happens is a rambling, driven mind; and the content of the thinking involved will always have a connection back to self importance (I'm now enlightened, or now I get it "just let go"). Even self importance by proxy (my teacher is so great, my lineage is the oldest, the Jade emperor adopted my teacher in spirit). No matter how "out there" or how ordinary (for instance interest in the history of the practice - or interest in the mechanics of what is happening) at its root it is the same - form given to awareness, structure given to energy which, if you are dedicated to your practice, will eventually need to be dissolved. Surrender, letting go allows the process to continue, as well as cultivating the energy. Forming opinions, new appendages to our identity (I'm a kunluner, I'm a bodhisattva, I'm am advanced practitioner) halts the process, so does theory history etc.

 

The only word knowledge which should be given for this type of practice is "poison for poison" or thinking which sabotages the tendency to think about what is going on. Talk of histories, teachers extraordinary lives, reptiles etc. only gets in the way. The Any other word knowledge should be given after the accomplishment is made.

 

The appropriate answer from the teacher to the student will always be the same "keep practicing" as any other answer will only encourage the student to create more form, more structure - which eventually has to be dealt with. But this is why a teachers answers are sometime vague (or non-existent) - or no more than platitudes, as it is only to set or correct the direction of the students intent. This isn't the case with all practices but is definitely applicable to KL.

 

This becomes problematic if you are attempting to reach many people. Why would someone chose to follow a practice, come to a seminar, if they do not have a "reason to" (like reaching enlightenment, constant bliss)? Or trust in a teacher without some verifiable credibility?

 

The issue with the current marketing is it encourages the very faculty which the teaching is attempting to dissolve, leads to confusion, attachment and prolongs the instability of the process. I would also say that the vast majority of "successful" kunlun students will be stuck on the attachment to the blissful feelings they feel. When this occurs (attachment to the good feelings) the energy will keep cycling around leading to fantasy and delusion. Awareness will keep taking slightly further steps away from reality. It is easily rectified - keep practicing - surrender the bliss as well as the blah. (approach the practice with equanimity)

 

Also building community around the practice - like a forum only encourages the participants to form and re-enforce the identity as part of the kunlun community, draw lines between the inexperienced, the advanced, the infidels etc. But both the forum and the marketing messages hinge off the same issue(problems) that the kunlun practitioners which are having problems with which the kunlun practioners who are experiencing problems are dealing with... motivation. If the seat of your motivation is centered outside of yourself - then you will look outside of yourself for the answers to your problems. If not found then frustration builds and an identity around that will begin to be formed and acted on.

 

It is very important to point out two things. The experiences which occur in the practice are only that - sensations. They are not verification of truth, advancement, etc.

 

And spiritual skills or powers are not indicative of spiritual advancement only energetic savvy.

I have learned what is written from doing the practices Max teaches - and yes he does teach this by what he does not say - he is a far better guide then people give him credit for (and people give him allot of credit).

And then read it again. What you wrote is based on what Max didn't say? I have to repeat that it seems to me that you give too much credit to the teacher and not enough to what you learned for yourself. He seems to make the process harder for students now encouraging things that are best to avoid. Consider please that you got him at the right time as well as got the best of him. I am glad you are moving on. I don't think you need him anymore. Joe.

1) to hear his teacher was gone 2) that this teacher no longer held him in esteem. It is indicative of just how much this man trusted, admired and loved his teacher, so much so he cannot accept the current truth of the situation.

The wounds of those events are as fresh as the day they were inflicted.

I sincerley hope for your sake and as well as everyone elses that it all gets worked out and goes well for all of you. Joe.

I think people should know - the tapes may not have the full procedures on them - there are key features left out of the videos. I know this to be true for Thunderbreath, Advance Thunderbreath, Red Dragon. So you may be wasting your money if you are looking to acquire these skills from the tapes. Also each of the above techniques have inherent dangers and you MUST have guidance from a teacher as incorrect practice can be damaging to the body - and in some cases the consequences will not be seen until years after.

This is a serious issue. Very serious. I can't see how both sides wouldn't have done everything possible to rectify it. It reflects negatively on the student who produced the tapes as well as the teacher who allowed it. What kind of secret teachings are these? They obviously do not promote clear thinking or lead to sound judgment, but instead contribute to allowing one to make poor choices for themselves that can potentially lead to severe consequences for others. This signals to me great instability and gives me cause for concern. Based on what I've been reading though it is the student that is always to blame. I think -O- that you and others give the teacher far too much credit, far too much. Thank you to all for your posts. I will never consider becoming a student of this teacher or practice again. Joe.

Consider that what I have written in my initial post has actually ROBBED you of coming to that lesson for yourself.

I don't think this statement has or can ever be true for anyone. During the OMG moments people forget what they don't really know. Joe.

Yes I learned directly from Max - but at a distance - mostly through phone calls and faxes. With some procedures it is nessesary to check in with the teacher as there can be side effects. I do not teach - I am not a master - I have not been initiated into any lineage - I have no affiliation to or speak on behalf of Max or the school or anyone else- (I have never claimed this as well). I do not believe that one needs assisstance for Kunlun - but again I am not a master, teacher, qualified or have any credentials. As I have said here before - it does not matter who I am and I am not anyone of importance. Take my words based as they are not based on who has spoken them.

Thank you for your posts. I have appreciated them. Joe.

The content on the site and forum is not the schools shortcoming - it is the students' (sorry if this offends).

Do the Kunlun students agree with this statement? There was no involvement or encouragement from Max to journal or post? Joe.

Did you learn directly from Max? If so was it important to learn directly from him? Would you say it

was/is important to see him occasionally for guidance? do you teach Kunlun? Thank you for answering my questions.Joe.

Also building community around the practice - like a forum only encourages the participants to form and re-enforce the identity as part of the kunlun community, draw lines between the inexperienced, the advanced, the infidels etc. But both the forum and the marketing messages hinge off the same issue(problems) that the kunlun practitioners which are having problems with which the kunlun practioners who are experiencing problems are dealing with... motivation. If the seat of your motivation is centered outside of yourself - then you will look outside of yourself for the answers to your problems. If not found then frustration builds and an identity around that will begin to be formed and acted on.[/font]

It is very important to point out two things. The experiences which occur in the practice are only that - sensations. They are not verification of truth, advancement, etc.

Are you Philip? Are you or were you a student of Max's? Did you learn what you have written from Max? If so why isn't he teaching this at the seminars too? Why would Max set up a website and encourage community if what you write is true? Would this not encourage a dependence on the teacher and the community? How come you know this and they don't? Joe.

And the community responded in kind!

Not everyone. There are some of us that have appreciated what he has had to say. There is a "point" otherwise people wouldn't bother posting. I read through for the "point". goldisheavy has always had good points and they are found in every post he makes. He hasn't learned the best way to present them yet to encourage the consideration of others is all. mjbecker used to write aggressively then mellowed out, he's forgotten that he used to be the same way. People can change. We all have stuff we are going through. If we focus on the points found in every post maybe we can withold our anger and actually read through each post without it so we can see the wisdom. There have been lots of spiritual leaders that have been very unlikeable and morally corrupt. What is the measure of wisdom, if it doesn't come in the "proper" package should it be overlooked?

I like goldisheavy and have enjoyed his posts the most. He stirs the pot and gets people out of their sleepy mode and gets them thinking. Even with stuff like this we can get into a rut.

Even with stuff like this.

I have to go now. It's time for me to go - girlfriend, too much schoolwork, 2 jobs, dog, cat, and 3 goldfish and practice.

My best to everyone. Joe.

Really? I only know of one who did the workshop who had problems. I haven't heard much negative from anyone else. Only positive things. I am not counting people on Taobums who have never met Max or Jenny yet feel they are in the position to be critical.

 

I don't defend Kunlun. It's a spiritual practice. What is there to defend?

Cameron, what about you?

You've written as many negative things regarding Kunlun as positive so have a lot of other Kunlun students.

It's all there in what I've been reading. It is there. You are still not sure of it because you went to another teacher and so have other Kunlun students. There are some posts that you haven't deleted. You do keep defending it and always answer, or tell people to stop talking about it ???????????????????????????????

It's all so

very

very

weird.

I give up it's time to go. Thanks everyone. Joe.

Once the alchemy is restarted it does not end. There are many changes to go through. All of it can happen in a very short span of time. Trouble happens when we resist it. Troubles that happen between us and our environment are a part of the re-balancing of the elements inside and out, it's natural. This path brings ultimately, total independence. Once is enough. Everything is contained in the root. If you haven't seen 'literally' everything yet, have you really looked? All answers are found at the end of the root...

 

once enough light has gotten in all of max's stories will makes sense

there is great purpose in all of it

"Once the alchemy is restarted it does not end. There are many changes to go through...."

"There is great purpose in all of it"...

What? Once restarted it does not end. Can't stop it. I do not even understand the choices. Golden Body - Rainbow body, no one has provided a sufficient explanation of what they are or what happens to you. I should understand the choices. What kind of choices to I have with Kunlun & transmission? You make it sound like once it has begun and is restarted by transmission all choice is lost - you won't have anymore choice and it's doesn't matter what you do it's going to be done to you like a runaway train. I should understand the choices. What kind of choices do I have with this practice Kunlun & transmission. Does transmission take away my choice. What kind of choices do I have. Understand the choices - understand the choices - understand the choices. Who does. There is great purpose in all of it. Who are you and can you answer my questions? How many workshops have you attended just one? I already asked you this and it was more than once. It would be nice to get a clear coherent knowledgeable answer about this because it is important!!!!!!!!!! Joe.

It does sound like this is going to include being honest with yourself. If you should happen to lie again, at least you'll know your reasons why and it will have been a choice instead of a knee jerk reaction. Saying I'm sorry, forgiving, and allowing forgiveness is the hardest thing and best thing all at the same time. All my best to you. Joe.

Please affix your oxygen mask before helping others

Notice my last line - Where do I sign up for that? I know I'm not perfect I have a lot to learn but I know now that I won't find it here on this site. Joe.

For those on this thread who would impugn the selflessness of Santiago, or claim that he is solely profit oriented, reference the "What is the healing circle?" thread, in which Santiago offers to do daily healing for whoever posts, asking in return only that if the recipient should benefit from the healing that a " donation should be made (for abandoned children, hungry kids, etc...) with the intent that its done on behalf of everyone involved in the "healing" you received and the THE TAO BUMB founders. So there is a nice Karmic thing occurring on many levels."

I don't think that inpugning the selflessness of Santiago was ever the original intent. If you take a look at the topic - How To Properly Thank A Person - I think you will find what moved goldisheavy to write what he did. It wasn't personal not how I read it. What I have found interesting is how some people take offense at the thought of spiritual teachers doing what they do as a business or to earn a living. This in my opinion is dangerous to the practicioner/student and can lead them to focus and follow more the teacher than the teachings, and then all reason is lost. No one acts are purely altruistic, there is something that drives everyone this also applies to things that have to do with spirit - wanting spiritual freedom for yourself - wanting to learn how to heal so you can help others etc. Reduce it all, sit and get real and you'll find out what moves you. For some it is a call and spirit moves them in everything that they do, but I haven't met anyone like that I've heard about them and read about them and their teachings that have shown us the way. You can pick apart what they've written and expose their teachings to light but reason will agree with them because there is a perfect balance of spirit, head, heart, mind, everything in balance. Where do I sign up for that? Joe.

Added Later -

I'd like to ask the teachers on this site - Is what you do purely altruistic? Joe.

Perhaps you should just take your opinions and fuck off?

You are entitled to your anger but isn't it more important for you to get your point across? Your approach immediately puts the person you are speaking to on the defensive and your point is lost because of it. goldisheavy's is responsible for the same approach and that is why his point has been lost. That is a shame because his point is valid and he probably learned it in a way that involved great pain. Santiago was unfortunately or fortunately (depending on the way you look at it) the person who pushed his buttons exposing what he learned and the emotion that came with it. Santiago is a good guy because he really did help, not in the normal way that everyone thinks you should help someone, he helped just by being himself and that brought to light some things that goldisheavy needed to see . Joe.

The only thing I could have done better, arguably, in retrospect, is I could have avoided mentioning Vajra by name and instead make it more vague and less personal, but focus more on my point in the abstract terms rather then making it more concretely associated with a particular person.

This approach would have most certainly worked better. Then perhaps what could have followed is presenting your ideas/solutions as suggestions for consideration and inviting comments and participation from the whole community.

"...do we all see Golds point? Too much praise leading to bloated ego. It can also lead to clickishness. I don't agree with his solution, but his point is valid." thelerner

That is the only way I see that a Tao Bums "How to Properly Thank a Person" list would result - with the contributions and support of everyone. Even then it would serve as a guideline only, but at least the "the point" would always be considered benefiting everyone. Joe.

And then "farmerjoe" is creating some dramatic story about Max based on the little that he knows, to justify his fears.

Max has a dramatic story but I certainly didn't create it:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...l=philip+toledo

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=5579&st=0

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=7751&st=40

QUOTE(lockpaw @ Oct 15 2007, 07:12 AM) *

 

Here seems to be the story so far: Max says some crazy things (reptilian races, immortality) but people are having actual reactions to him.

I would like some one to explain about these reptilian races!

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...kunlun&st=0

As to the reptilian stuff, what people are experiencing is only what is already there. Google "nagas" and you will find info on these beings. At the deepest levels of all mystery schools on earth, these are some of the teachers that come when you are ready.

 

Actually, many forms of beings come to you when you start to open up. Some are very human some are quite different. This is very shocking to some people, but it is what is, so there it is.

 

People from all over the world experience these things and they always have.

 

Exploring the Tao gets weird. The truth is much different than people have been led to believe.

 

This post has been edited by Mantra68: Oct 15 2007, 07:28 AM

I used to have the impression that Kunlun would be a great addition to most people's practice. I no longer think that. Definitely follow your intuition about it.

Keep checking back I'll add more links as I find them again. Joe.

By the way, Max hasn't certified any teachers of Kunlun.

FYI

Kunlun website: http://www.kunlunbliss.com/teachers.html

And then "farmerjoe" is creating some dramatic story about Max based on the little that he knows, to justify his fears. That kind of behavior is despicable in my opinion, Joe. I will not be sharing any more information with you. Just go to a seminar and see for yourself how it all works. Or don't, but don't expect people to give you an answer to every question you ask. It seems like a waste of time to me.

I didn't create any of it but took it from posts that where added to this site by Mantra/Chris Tittle. I created none of it. I would be happy to cut and paste or add links to everything that I have read. Cameron's dramatic post of not being qualified and yours came after one of my posts where I stated that I didn't think that anyone here could answer my questions. Go back in this thread and take a look or would you like me to cut and paste that too? I've learned a lot here. Mostly if I should ever make it out to a Max free lecture I now know what I personally need to ask him. I at no time disrespected the teacher or the practice and have thanked all of you many times for sharing and your patinence. How does that qualify as being despicable? Joe.

Ah, but YOU have thought about effects of "will it allow me to keep my fee will and right to choose." It is a question that is important.

Thank you but apparently others don't seem to be in agreement with you and see "thought" as being despicable. Joe.

Actually I was trying my best to answer Joe's questions. He raises some valid points. Many of his questions are what several "advanced" practitioners should be asking.

You give me too much credit, surely "what is a transmission" and how will it affect me, general "what am I consenting to" are beginner questions, things I should know to maintain and keep the gift of my free will and right to choose. Joe.

I understand, and such sweet intention is generally commendable. But are you familiar with the concept of flattery? Flattery can be defined simply as "excessive praise". Flattery is a poison for spiritual development. Flattery hurts the person you flatter more than yourself. It's a cruel thing to do to someone.

There is truth here, all too easy for this to become another obstacle. I seem to recall too a private pm going public in a recent topic that may have hurt a friendship recently, so this all just seems like good etiquette to me. Joe.

goldisheavy you distort the picture we have of Santiago on this forum beyond our recognition when you use the words 'businessman' and 'advert'. you choose those words for their slant toward profit making, and therefore your use of words is profoundly reductive toward what others experience of Santiago.

You don't even consider that what he has is in fact a business. I don't know enough about Santiago's story other than he is a teacher, a husband, a father, a friend and seems like a really good person, and because he has dependents and is alive then this all demands that he earns a living. Max is a businessman. He started off small teaching to small groups and disappeared because he wanted to test his students and see what they'd do with what he taught them. His friend Phillip Toledo continued to use his name to sell tapes and make a profit and when Max resurfaced refused to believe it was really him so Max was ripped off of his share of profits. This story is common knowledge. Max was unable to save this friendship and Chris Tittle began a campaign to prove that Phillip was nuts by posting one of Phillip's letters. Most people who have attended a seminar can tell you that Max is eccentric. Phillip is not nuts. He might not have been a good friend and was a shady businessman but he wasn't nuts not when you look and weigh the whole thing. So Max learned a really cool practice from Jenny Lamb and put that together with some of what his other teachers taught him and then he started teaching it to small groups. He continued learning more things and then met Chris Tittle an author and owner of his own advertising company? Chris knew what to do to take the teachings public. Max said okay to all this I'm sure so he in fact chose to become a businessman. He is now teaching on a bigger scale and touring different countries. He has certified teachers and is creating more. He has created other small business because these teachers are teaching to others and are also earning a living. There is nothing wrong with any of this. Everyone is entitled to make a living. It's just business. Max was always a businessman because he was married more than once and has a daughter I think I read somewhere? It's not a sign or measure of a bad person or teacher to be a businessman. It's not something I use to measure a good teacher or a healer. However, if it ticks someone off for me to say this, if they make too much of a fuss then I have to wonder if the person making a fuss has somehow elevated someone way to high and maybe put them on a pedestal because they don't want to associate business with spirituality. It's just life and it's just business. Simple. Santiago is a businessman, so is Max so were and are a lot of other great spiritual leaders. Take it all in and it's reasonable. Joe.

My point is, as long as the people recieving the projection hasnt asked for it, it is manipulation and a violation. And therefore highly unethical.

Agreed, because it removes choice. Joe.