rene

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Posts posted by rene

  3. Posted

    TzuJanLi, hi

     

    Thanks for the reply (-: My mind doesn't chatter except when too much wine :blush: so I'm not sure which way is my natural state LOL

     

    ... The result, is that much of my waking experience is without the mind-talk, that mostly the mind-talk is consciously invoked to deal with specific issues.. those intervals without mind-talk are so much more clear and vivid, crisp and alive..

     

    Have you tried yet to deal with specific issues from within the interval of no mind-talk? It might be that the quality of results grows exponentially when the chatter is not there to muddle things.

     

    warm regards

  4. Posted

    Hagar, hi (-:

     

    In my experience, the idea of utilizing a method is really secondary to how method is an expression of an underlying or essential connection to the root, the True nature of our being and our "home". If this connection is firm, all what we do is but an expression of the living and changing outflow from that source. This may manifest as methods, forms, practices. Yet the underlying silent source is what constitutes it. So many practices has lost this connnection or "objective", this root orientation. When that happens, things start to become decandent.

     

    To exemplify, a form might contain the true transmission, the "code" of the source, and thus manifesting it through form. In this way you might say that method, or form when transmitting the connection to the root energy, or information is not only for enjoyment or healing, yet both are consequences/expressions of maintaining this connection.

     

    I understand your words. Using your lingo and combining your ideas, my take is that the underlying source is always within - and manifests through forms; or rather forms and methods can be a creative expression of the source. Rather than something that brings the source to the party, methods and forms are tools that can reveal what is already within. Rather than forms bringing a healing aspect, forms can release the healing aspect we all already have.

     

    Further, when there are instrumental aims to a method or form, the form ceases to be relevant when the objective has been attained; right understanding, healing, reflection, etc. Yet many forms, forms that I myself practice, are not dynamic in this way. They are "symbolic" only revealing or embodying the code or true nature through form or symbol. In this sense, your form is a prayer, a tribute, a sign of gratitude, and even grace. This in my own opinion, is also the most potent way to utilize form. It is static and not dynamic. Its information does not cease to function as there really is no objective beyond the expression of grace or silence.

     

    Did this make any sense?

     

    Oh, it makes a lot of sense to me. Very well put and this warrants repeating:

     

    They are "symbolic" only revealing or embodying the code or true nature through form or symbol. In this sense, your form is a prayer, a tribute, a sign of gratitude, and even grace. This in my own opinion, is also the most potent way to utilize form. It is static and not dynamic. Its information does not cease to function as there really is no objective beyond the expression of grace or silence.

     

    I find that this particular static resides within the dynamic of all things, unboundaried and unencumbered, always available. Methods and forms bring this deligtfully to the fore! Obviously I'm an Ornamental-method kinda girl. LOL

     

    Thoughts?

  5. Posted

    There are good methods of two kinds:

     

    1. Ornamental.

     

    2. Healing.

     

    Ornamental methods are employed by the healthy people to achieve an effect for effect's sake, basically for fun and for the joy of life and not for any ulterior purpose, such as for health or for enlightenment.

     

    Healing methods are employed by the sick people to illuminate the nature of their sickness. Once the sick person understands one's own sickness, one can get better. .... (Once)cured, the method is no longer necessary. At least, the method is no longer necessary in its healing capacity. It may still be useful in an ornamental capacity.

     

    I like your categories; they line up with my take on things.

     

     

    There is also a third kind of a method, which is a bad kind:

     

    3. Stagnating method.

     

    The purpose of the stagnating method is to maintain the status quo without challenging any presupposition while carrying on a pretense of working for a higher purpose. So the pretense of a higher purpose disqualifies the method from category 1. And the fact that the method doesn't challenge any presupposition eliminates it from category 2 as well. Such a method is a waste of time.

     

    Agree wholeheartedly. AND if part of this method is to suck others into believing that they are lacking (thereby reinforcing their own sense of higher purpose), well, that preying is about as ugly as it gets.

     

    thanks for replying (-:

  6. Posted

    MarbleHEAD, hi B)

     

    Which choice do you think would be better, sub-topic or out here? Maybe you have the better perspective on this as you did something similar with your teachings.

     

    Personally, I think a TTC subforum wouldn't detract taoist input away from the general discussion area - but more importantly perhaps, the subforum would keep the (eventual) 81 topics grouped for ongoing discussions.

     

    I'd vote in favor of an open subforum - up there with the BookClub, HealingCircle and LendingLibrary.

     

    It would be kinda nice to see a little nod towards the Laozi in TaoBums. (-:

  8. Posted

    A given person's real purpose for saying certain words and their intended meaning may be quite different than what others might think the meaning and purpose is. It is all well and fine to say that one just needs to realize what is already there, but where does such a concept truly get a person?

    It might be that it gets a person to a place where there is nothing lacking within. Can you begin to imagine what that is like?

     

     

    This concept may well reflect truth in some sense, but is one really any further along at all for the hearing and thinking of such things?

    That depends on the person, yes? If he is already stuffed full with ideas that something more is 'required' then you are right and there is nothing that he could hear or think that there would be any room for.

     

     

    One wonders how is this any different than any other concept or method or approach that the mind might hold and cling to?

    Rather than being a concept or method or approach - for me this is only a small observation. I observe that I have ten fingers. I observe that I am not seperate from Tao. What more is it that you feel I could need?

     

     

    Just an exchanging of one concept for another to be clung to within the mind but what has really changed? Is one any closer to enlightenment?

    Is attaining enlightenment something that you cling to? It might be the last step in your own path is to let go of even the need for that.

     

     

    Sometimes the best traps do not look anything like traps at all and the crafty never appear crafty in the slightest. :D

    And sometimes a banana is just a banana. I like that we each have our own ways, and I wish you well on your path. (-: Thanks for your reply!

  9. Posted

    We've had threads before where we've discussed sections/chapters - it was good I thought and its nice to focus just on Taoism without Buddhist views creeping in.

     

    Agree. Maybe a Buddhist subforum, then? :rolleyes: I read the enlightenment guaranteed thread but got only a headache instead. To each their own; I travel a simple path and to me nothing is simpler than tao and it's as natural as breathing.

     

    Maybe the TTC chapter discussions could start out here - and then if it gets too cluttersome those posts can be moved into a new sub-forum? Having the TTC chapter in the post title (unlike Marblebrain's numbering system) would make them easier to spot, reply to, or move later if need be.

  10. Posted

    When we discuss Taoist philosophy on the main discussion board its kind of part of the main debate and you can get a good range of comments from all sorts of angle. If we separate it off into a sub-forum will we lose something - will it seem exclusive somehow??? Why not just post thread topics on this?

     

    Apech, I agree with your thinking on this. That said - if Twinner has in mind what he's done elsewhere and given how fast topics sink off the front list page - well, it might be a good idea to give the TTC it's own corner. Especially if debates over which translation is better start up here... Then again, if the philosophy folks mostly hang in the TTC corner, all you'll be left with out here is rest of ya to keep the e-sanghaites company! :lol:

     

    hey. wasn't that helpful. LOL

  12. Posted

    I am here for all of the previously mentioned reasons. Because everyone i deal with on a personal level is following a different path than my own. Even though my knowledge of taoism is low compared to some, it doesnt change our similarities. I am here to be part of a harmonious community whos purpose is simplicity, humility, and compassion.

    Mike - welcome, btw :-)

     

    Like you, I enjoy a harmonious community. I also enjoy a boiling-chaotic community... so whatever comes is Okay.

  13. Posted

    Ryan, hi

     

    It's all well and good to talk about the method of no-method, and the realization of our intrinsic connection to the Tao. But surely there is also a place for methods and practices?

     

    Sure there is, are, but the gist of the difference is the approach, the 'for what?' If you meditate to "become one with Tao" or practice to "find Tao" then you might be actually reinforcing the idea that "Tao" is something separate.

     

    For instance, Krishnamurti practiced hatha yoga for hours everyday. He never talked about it in his lectures, but it was an integral part of his practice.

     

    I think it's a little patronizing to tell someone that methods are silly and then go and practice meditation or yoga without mentioning their importance.

     

    I saw the Krishnamurti series a long time ago; enjoyed them very much. I doubt he felt the general audience he was speaking to was able to understand the subtle difference at that level. But it could be patronizing, sure, depending on why he practiced mediation and yoga. Do you think Krishnamurti thought methods were a direct path to understanding these things? If they were, then by now we'd be hip-deep in buddhas, all things would have taken their course and gentle rain would fall. (-:

    • Like 4

  14. Posted

    But new pathways can be forged. Read "The Brain That Changes Itself" by Norman Doidge, M.D. Very interesting and heartening as it relates to the individual.

     

    Ryan & Songs - damn i wish i could remember the name of the book, sorry, few years ago - but it told of the neural mechanics of 'inspiration'. It spoke of thinking, concentrating, focusing on a problem for a long time - and then forgetting about it & going off to take a nap or some mindless thing - and the answer just seems to 'come out of nowhere'. What was in fact happening, was a kind of creating a conducive neural 'environment' for a solution to slide into. Of course, the solution didn't manifest outta thin air :lol: but was already scattered data in the brain, waiting to fall into place, like pieces of a puzzle.

     

    LOL well, there's a helluva off-topic post. Maybe someone will recognize the concept and can fill my synaptic gaps with the title of that book.

  15. Posted

    I'm just making the point that it wasn't Lao Tzu's intent

     

    I'll disagree with any statement that says what was or wasn't Lao Tzu's intent.

     

    (Even if I happen to agree with it, which in this case I dont.)

     

    Interesting ideas presented here... "using Lao Tzu name" seems to abound.

    • Like 1

  17. Posted

    Here I sit, in the moving stillness of nature, watching the snow fall in big flakes outside the window. Now here comes the owner/caretaker of this place with his new 2011 4x4 giant pickup with a blade out front. Okay, now he just plowed a snow-swath off the drive and kept going off the edge and scraped the sod up with it and kept pushing until he tore up his elderly mother's garden. Soon, I'll hear her yelling from here. Even with the door closed.

     

    It's all good. (-:

  18. Posted · Edited by rene

    There is a great little book written by John Blofeld, who visited China in the 1930's and 40's - researching Buddhism - and Taoism.

     

    After commenting to a Taoist recluse in the White Cloud Monastery that "...of the many wise hermits encountered during my wanderings, the few who had betrayed signs of being, as I fancied, closest to illumination had almost all been Buddhist." - the recluse wondered if even one of them surpassed the Taoist recluse known as Tseng Lao-weng.

     

    Arrangements were made for Blofeld to meet Lao-weng, what follows is part of their conversation.

     

    ***

     

    "Venerable, it is just that, as most of my teachers are Buddhist, I am ignorant about what Taoists mean by such terms as wisdom and illumination, and about their methods of approaching the Tao."

     

    Lao-weng laughed. "How strange. Can there be two kinds of wisdom, two kinds of illumination, Taoist and Buddhist? Surely the experience of truth must be the same for all? As to approaching the Tao, be sure that demons and executioners, let alone Buddhists, are as close to it as can be. The one impossible thing is to get a finger's breadth away from it. Do you suppose that some people are nearer to it than others? Is a bird closer to the air than a tortoise or a cat? The Tao is closer to you than the nose on your face; it is only because you can tweak your nose that you think otherwise. Asking about our approach to the Tao is like asking a deep-sea fish how it approaches the water. It is just a matter of recognizing what has been inside, outside and all around from the first. Do you understand?"

     

    "Yes, I believe I do. Certainly my Buddhist teachers have taught me that there is no attaining liberation, but only attaining recognition of what one has always been from the first."

     

    "Excellent! Your teachers, then, are true sages. You are a worthy disciple, so why brave the bitter cold to visit an ordinary old fellow? You would have learnt as much at your own fireside."

     

    "Venerable, please dont laugh at me! I accept your teaching that true sages have but the one goal. Still, here in China, there are Buddhists and there are also Taoists. Manifestly they differ; since the goal is one, the distinction must lie in their methods of approach"

     

    "So you are hungry not for wisdom but for knowledge! What a pity! Wisdom is almost as satisfying as good millet-gruel, whereas knowledge has less body to it than tepid water poured over old tea-leaves; but if that is the fare you have come for, I can give you as much as your mistreated belly will hold. What sort of old tea-leaves do Buddhists use, I wonder! We Taoists use all sorts. Some swallow medicine-balls as big as pigeon's eggs or drink tonics by the jug, live upon unappetizing diets, take baths at intervals governed by esoteric numbers, breathe in and out like asthmatic dragons, or jump about like Manchu bannermen hardening themselves for battle - all this discomfort just for the sake of a few extra decades of life! And why? To gain more time to find what has never been lost!

     

    And what of those pious recluses who rattle mallets against wooden-fish drums from dusk to dawn, groaning out liturgies like cholera-patients excreting watery dung? They are penitents longing to rid themselves of a burden they never had. These people do everything imaginable, including swallowing pills made from the vital fluids secreted by the opposite sex and lighting fires in their bellies to make the alchemic cauldrons boil. I shall have to talk of such follies for hours, if you really want a full list of Taoist methods. These method-users resemble mountain streams a thousand leagues from the sea. Ah, how they chatter and gurgle, bubble and boil, rush and eddy, plunging over precipices in spectacular fashion! How angrily they pound against the boulders and suck down their prey in treacherous whirl-pools! But, as the streams broaden, they grow quieter and more purposeful. They become rivers - ah, how calm, how silent! How majestically they sweep towards their goal, giving no impression of swiftness and, as they near the ocean, seeming not to move at all!

     

    While noisy mountain streams are reminiscent of people chattering about the Tao and showing-off spectacular methods, rivers remind one of experienced men, taciturn, doing little, but doing it decisively; outwardly still, yet sweeping forward faster than you know. Your teachers have offered you wisdom; they why waste time acquiring knowledge? Methods! Approaches! Need the junk-master steering towards the sea, with the sails of his vessel billowing in the wind, bother his head about alternative modes of propulsion - oars, paddles, punt-poles, tow-ropes, engines and all the rest? Any sort of vessel, unless it founders or pitches you overboard, is good enough to take you to the one and only sea."

     

    The secret and the sublime: Taoist Mysteries and Magic ~ John Blofeld

     

     

    edit:typo

    recent edit: another typo

    • Like 17

  24. Posted

    I can't help but wonder how much of this is written by Mal...

     

    I'd like to invite some of you to put some things in perspective.

     

     

     

    Heh, Taomeow's energy can be recognized in two of her sentences. Well, it can by those who see anyway - which suggests you really either are the newbie your join date implies or an oldtimer who's kept yer eyes closed. Either way, best of luck. (-:

    • Like 1