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Nice post! You give good argument for there not being only non-dual. Do you hold there is only dual? Do you see how there could be both duality and non-duality in play at the same time? Thanks! *************** Edit to add: Jesus would says "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, body, soul, mind". And people around him start shaking their Rosaries and getting on their knees raising hands to the sky, praying, and hitting Bibles on their heads. Jesus, rolls his eyes again. Laozi, writes poetry of the world he knows. People read and repeat like parrots, they want to follow the "instructions". Laozi rolls his eyes again, and walks out of the city, leaving his writings with the guard at the gatepost. Love it!!

Right, even though that isn't what I was meaning... Also agree that this place rocks, and I'm glad you're here; you always seem to put a finer point on things - and I like that. LOL yep. Lemme try my question/thought again re "in accordance with Tao". My starting premise is that Tao moves in ALL directions (at the same time) - so it's not possible to be NOT in "accordance with Tao". If I choose to do something really horrid - I'll suffer the consequences, yes. But that is not going 'against Tao' - unless one holds that Tao only moves in the direction of the non-horrid. Once that ^^^ idea is held, it becomes very easy to create various 'schools of thought' - and in all cases the idea of Tao is downgraded (reduced in scope) to only those things deemed favorable, i.e., what one would want to 'be in accord with'. For clarity: I'm all in favor of favorable things. And, I'm not using my (all directions, same time) premise as justification for horrid behavior (though that accusation is usually the first one to appear). My point is - once folks start assigning Tao to specific choices, results or actions - they've limited Tao not only to their own needs/preferences, but also to their own understanding of it. What say you?

Makes sense to me, Rocky. And a hearty Welcome to the Longtable!...oops, wrong thread!!.

TomBrad - that's an excellent link! I've had it bookmarked for years; it's my online go-to for all things rune.

Are you not downgrading Tao by saying being 'in accordance with Tao' parallels with what is favorable to you?

Of course. But that's waaay beyond this discussion. Feel free to jump in it. Also: "Acting in accord with tao" - is another discussion even beyond that.

Hmmm...I don't know if LZ is being too optimistic; my take is he was pretty aware of the feebleness of human nature (Ref: Ch. 70: My words are easy to understand and easy to perform, Yet no man under heaven knows them or practices them). Optimism is there though; so perhaps it's based on what could be - if his ideas were implemented? But who knows for sure; both your and my opinion on this is conjecture.

My guess is it's a flute. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ silent thunder, Your words and tribute moved me to tears. What a gift, she was and still is. What a gift you are, to us. Thank you.

In general, I agree with this part of your post. Care should still be taken, imo, when deciding which side his position appears to be on. Differently biased renditions have him firmly on the side they promote.

We know. Because of difficulties outline earlier - flowing hand's suggestion is a good one, if you'd like to explore this more (I'd be on board for that!) so...pick a translation, so we're all looking at the same one, that's not overly biased in any direction and we can see where this goes. Or - if you've already set this down, that's okay too.

Aw...you really gonna make me say it? How about Both, (supernatural and metaphorical) at the same time? Some may perceive it as one or the other - and use their interpretations to build entire ideas around - or to support their existing systems!

Agree, very much so. I don't recall there being any errors (in the factual sense you describe) in the F/E -but maybe others have seen them. I can see how there might easily be factual errors in translations by those who may have had an agenda while rendering...to support their own position(s).

I am.

Ah, okay thanks! It's an interesting query, yours. One small difficulty with the investigation might be that so many translations are rather biased, sometimes intentionally others not, by the renderer's beliefs going in. For example, in your other thread - the differences found between translations (Ch18&38) seemed to lead to different conclusions as to LZ's anti-Confucian intentions. By the same token, Christian slanted translations might have a whole different set of 'errors' than say a Buddhist slanted translation. Whether it's the most accurate or the least accurate translation - what I like about the Feng/English rendition is that it feels free of any specific bias... and any 'bias' is easily spotted in a version's treatment of two lines in Ch1. Fun stuff! Thanks again!

Hi wandelaar - Could you (or anyone) tell me which Chapter that's in? I don't recall anything similar in the F/E rendition - but my memory is sideways sometimes. Thanks!

Here are other renderings of those parts of Ch18 and Ch38 (F/E) that you quoted. EIGHTEEN When the great Tao is forgotten, Kindness and morality arise. When wisdom and intelligence are born, The great pretense begins. When there is no peace within the family, Filial piety and devotion arise. When the country is confused and in chaos, Loyal ministers appear. THIRTY-EIGHT ..... Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness. When goodness is lost, there is kindness. When kindness is lost, there is justice. When justice is lost, there ritual. Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion. Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of Tao. It is the beginning of folly. ..... Interesting thread wandelaar

thanks! No worries re elusive. 'Either/or' thinking is hard to overcome. Especially with so many saying 'Life is just an illusion' - and then being whacked by Marblehead's chair.

I like that! A spiritual symbiosis: between Dao and all that has arisen.

"Not two" - is still only half of it. Coming to the realization that all things are simultaneously 'separate' and 'not-separate' -- the fullness of "Both, same time" appears.

That ^ well describes the same way dao is in all things. Unboundaried. Both, same time.

I think ZZ called it: A springtime in every moment.

Better check local ordinances/HOA/developer regs before you commit to anything. They are very left-snowflake out near the coast. Owning chickens might be animal cruelty, not to mention cluckers also bring property values down, ya know.

Um... lose the traffic?? Have you ever been to Seattle?? Whole I-5 corridor is like this... Ah...apologies LiT. Not meaning to rain on your upcoming adventure. We drove there for a Seahawks game 2yrs ago...nightmare. But maybe where you're going its quieter. Hope so! For sure there's more trees Kitsap Co is beautiful, even with a quarter million people. Our county has 8,000. LOL

More needs to be said, I think, to the OP's valid questions. Speaking only for myself. Unlike Odin - I don't 'feed' my dark wolf in the same manner he suggests. What I do - is to not give it more power by spending energy trying to kill it, or suppress it, or deny it's existence. In the rare times it howls - I let it cycle through of its own accord, feeding it no attention or importance - other than a casual observation. Soon, it returns to the dark corner in which it dwells and I go about my day. Neither of my wolves are very hungry; they co-exist naturally and I leave them to it.