Buddy

Bring it on. You "believers" don't have a prayer. One can't prove a negative. It's up to the claimant to prove the veracity of their claim. If I show a video of someone doing this and admitting it's a trick, what would that prove. Does anyone here doubt gravity? inertia? thermodynamics? Please spare me your "faith" in the impossible. I don't need faith to tell me gravity exists. It exists a priori to my belief in it.

I'm saying the ZSF myth is spurious. All taiji originates from Chen style.

"I don't think Buddy is going to believe anything unless it happens to himself in person. That's fine - but while he may lack the hard proof to say this vid or Jiang is real to him, he also lacks the proof to declare them fake.

Why not take an agnostic position if you simply don't know for a fact either way, then? I mean, is there any visible evidence within that video or hand blister pic to imply they were faked? If not, then what is your specific doubt based upon?"

"Oh I agree. But we are talking about faith here. Buddy's faith, with no proof that the video is fake defies logic and scientific method as much as anyone's faith without proof that the video is real. Faith defies logic quite often. Now is it the faith that is flawed or logic? That may be another thread altogether."

You can't be serious. How about the total circumvention of natural law? The hand blister is a verification of what? That it was put there by magical power? Come on. In a discourse it is behoovant upon the claimant to offer proof not the skeptic. These tricks can be readily reproduced. Why on earth would ANYONE believe them except wanting to participate in fantasy?

Well, very well. I submit that it is horseshit. Show me the error of my ways. I believe that will prove impossible.

"I mean it's true that we can't hold a Christain Saint or a Ramana Mahareishi to the same standard as a Taoist adept in the Lei Shan Dao; I mean we can't ask them to burn something to prove they are authentic. And I think that's important to recognize that we shouldn't expect it."

Oh I think we should hold everyone to the same standard. It's either real or not. But neither of the two examples given CLAIM super normal powers.

"I think maybe Buddy and maybe some others got offended because they perceive those on the other side of the discussion hold the position that "ALL" practices that don't include these abilities are bogus."

You think? I can't speak these supposed others but I am not offended by your hogwash. My point is that abilities are fake. I doubt other systems really want to be identified with that.

"No one is saying that. But, there is a catagory of practice, specifically several lines within the Taosit tradition, that do have these elements of objective tests and abilities as signs of progress."

Objective? I hardly think so.

"It's one thing to chime in and say, "Hey, I don't think this is real and here's why..." But just to keep posting this kind of harrassing attack and repeating the same tired shit when some people want to have a meaningful dialog just kind of stinks."

Well it's tough you don't like it. Provide some real objective proof beyond "because I say so.." Otherwise I'm going to show you guys for what you are, shuck and jive. A meaningful dialog for you is when everyone agrees with you.

You don't seem to get this part. If you are the one making the claims, it's not up to anyone else to DISPROVE them. The onus is on the claimant.

the problem with denty's answering over and over agian is that the demonstration is bullshit. So does that make the system bullshit?

Well I agree even though I'm a big part of the drama. I think when adults can stop wishing for super powers and concentrate on real techniques for spiritual advancement then it will happen. I just don't understand the suspension of disbelief by some. These sort of parlor tricks didn't work in the martial art community because of the obvious reasons.

G,

denty is typical in his worship. Anything that suggests he could be deluded upsets his current world view. Later, in his 40s, he'll be doing Pilates and be a zealot for that as well. These guys need a lifestyle, they can't be satisfied with a life. It's a need to belong.

How's that for pop-pych, denty?

"Mythical origins of the art aside, most taoist forms of taijiquan claim origin from Zhang San Feng."

Not the actual origin of taiji, the Chen family.

"It is of no consequesnce whether you believe me or not. As far as I'm concerned you and Buddy can go fuck eachother."

Hehehe. In typical lap dog fashion denty has had enough! Now the real ammunition comes out. denty will use harsh language if cornered. You are classic, denty.

I'm beginning to think it's David, not dear old dad denty's got the sneaker on for.

Endorsed by the butchers of Lhasa, damn that's impressive.

At 4:30 pm.

You get that for $80/hr.

Drat! I hate it when the facts get in the way of gripping yarn.

Did this form make Winn enlightened? This would be my first question.

"Exactly. The point is that the people who have these abilities are also very spiritually evolved and many are enlightened. Why does there have to be a need to say otherwise when you have never met them, don't know what their practices involve and don't even have a basic understanding of their school and what their values are. It's more than immature. It reveals your own doubts and deep, in some cases, need to impose yourself on others. In Buddy's case it's just a cry for help, perhaps he is unhappy in his marriage (God help his wife). Can you say midilife crisis"

Your sad passive/aggressiveness is just automatic for you. You don't seem to ever have a thought unsaid. Now you want to speculate on my marriage? How puerile. Should I have my wife come here and chastise you for this?

But I must admit your feeble attempts at pop psychology are at least amusing in their immaturity.

It would be like me saying- It only shows that some have a homo-erotic father complex because they feel a need to invent a fantasy where we all can have magic powers. In Sean's case it's penis envy, perhaps he's revealing his suppressed desire to molest small boys. (God help his therapist). Can you say autoerotic stimulation? (sorry I just couldn't replace the question mark with a quote like you did, denty)

"Jim, the guy in the video, from what I hear is a pretty cool guy. He studied with Sifu Chang for about 10-15 years before reaching this level. "

10 or 15? It's a 33 percent difference. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say 15. For what? To allegedly be able to move empty cardboard boxes. Talk about a waste of time...

Cheng Manching boozed himself to death as well. I like some of Reid and Cohen's stuff.

This is exactly what I'm talking about denty,

Hating? What sort of nonsense polemic is that? Because I call the ridiculous for what it is, is not hating. It's simply revealing the facts. You'll just have to understand that I'm not falling for it based the claims of some cult addled hippy boy. I knew shit from shine-ola long before I met Bruce.

I remember Winn when he came to one of Bruce Frantzis' bagua workshops. He was a talker.

"You would first have to understand the basic mechanics of the body-mind to see it's value and relevance. That's the problem, you lack education. You have no idea what's happening in the demonstrations, you just see what you want to see; it scares you and you react like a child."

Pshaw denty,

It doesn't scare me, don't be foolish. You react like a knee jerk cultist, how's that? We could play these silly tit for tat name calling but I'll be better at it than you. I can readily show you how my neigong works and you might find some of it pretty interesting. Certainly the physical therapy students when they came to interview so we could compare paradigms. But then they told me their teacher wouldn't believe what I could do. the difference between me and you is that I CAN do it, readily reproduce it, and am willing to do so at will. You can only claim.

"Those that know - the believers (or at least those that have had experience) believe,"

No, those that believe, believe. that is a far cry from knowing.

"And those that don't... go out of their way to be insulting"

Sort of what they said to the boy who revealed the Emperor's lack of attire.

"It's too bad that the level of insecurity on this site about such things has to take away from the possiblity of a useful/interesting discussion."

It's this level of passive/aggressiveness that has come to define you and those like you denty.

Sorry Harry, I don't see it as value. Signs of attainment of what? Isn't the purpose of spiritual cultivation to make one...I'm not sure of the way I want to say this...enlightened, free the wheel of karma, satchitananda, one with Dao...?

There is no if. I've never seen Bruce attempt any of these parlor tricks, he was a martial artist when I studied with him (for over ten years).

Which part eluded you?

I can't explain what you claim to have experienced denty. But I'm sure you'll understand that unless I experience it or find it tested in verifiable surroundings I remain skeptical. Still and all, even if it's true what value is it? In my total beginner status I'm certain none of these alleged powers would stop me from dropping you like a hot rock. But I'm not enlightened.

Taoist pretty much summed my feelings quite well.

"Jedi" (need I say more?) whines:

"I Can see if you have never exp things like this or if you cant even feel energy or project it your self then you would tend not to understand these matters."

You can't see, anything, boy. You can assume what you like, your opinion is of no consequence.

In addition to my teachers baduanjin I teach BK Frantzis' neigong system.

And you're a silly Harry Potter wannabe.