Buddy

It's bagua and xingyi. It's not the art it's the person.

How about that it was all fakery?

Not at all, the razor is still an assumption based on known quantities. We speculate, therefore we are. But, as you say, we're probably on the same side of this one.

"Unless you are following the rules of logic then your argument runs risk of being built upon a fallacy. " A risk I'm willing to take. Reason takes the place of logic. I'm afraid logic does not always hold sway in the real world. I'll take Occam's razor, thanks.

" Well now you argue for arguments sake and it's a fool's errand. I can't prove consciousness exists but I know it does.

T, I appreciate your response but I'm not making a mistake. I'm well acquainted with the bodies hydrolics (thanks to BKF). But the bottom line is that intention lead the musculature to act. Re: Kumar and martial arts. Those days are gone. When I started with him almost everyone was a MAist. But that was many many years ago. I could teach you how to use his stuff as could a half dozen others. But that's about it.

"I have read a little over at the empty flower. They live in a different world under a different belief system with different goals. Why go there and start a shit storm, what would be the point? Who cares?" Well it's a convenient dodge, Sean. You seem like a sincere guy so you have naught to fear from lively debate. Although EF is a martial art forum there are folks on spiritual paths. I think you probably know that the heat in the kitchen would get too hot for you if you could not substantiate your claims.

Since it seems no one has the means to actually go to China to expose this nonsense, I've posted David's invitation over at Empty Flower, where there are folks living there. Denty, why don't you go there and engage in some lively debate with people who have developed real skills and not these phony magic tricks?

"he is consistent with his story" This is my point, he's NOT consistent with his story. I've already listed several ways in these threads but it's convenient for you to ignore those because you'd rather be right that correct. "don't wander, stay on the point. You said you knew everything I knew, I asked you to describe 3 things I recently studied with Bruce, and you didn't." I'm saying that what you describe are nonsense. I admit, what I know isn't nonsense. I can demonstrate my skill to others. You can only talk about it. Can you illustrate in your body those skills I mentioned that I can do? If not you haven't completed what is now being called apparently "beginning" material. You and your peers are a market that is being well and cleverly marketed to. The market that I was a member of was one who sought out and learned and developed real skills, not hypothetic ones. I said it before, there is a huge gulf between information and skill. I'm done Pietro, you can have the last word. I'll not cast pearls before swine.

"Since we agree that there is no "easy" way to prove that there is not this discipline already there, we have to use indirect ways. Who will just give us hints, but no definite answers. This until someone speaks with every practitioner, or we find (or Bruce tells us) someone else who knows this discipline we are left guessing out of this partial knowledge." Don't you see how specious this sort of reasoning is? Until we see if every person dies, should we doubt that everyone will die? "Well, Bruce have been pretty consistent with his story about the standing practice. He has given to people different standing postures. You think he invented the whole thing up? That would make him both a genius and totally crazy. It seem harder to believe that than thinking that his story is actually true." Sorry there are more options. You figure it out. "Please describe me "fourth space". Also, how do you dissolve the energy of the whole body all at once? And finally, how do you use opening and closing to change your belief system." Sheesh. It's like reading a L. Ron Hubbard novel. Quote me anyplace in the Taoist lexicon where these things are mentioned. Do you really think you can dissolve the energy of your body? Doesn't death quickly spring to mind in such an absurd occurrence? "Hmm, no it's you who need to prove that it does not exist. I am absolutely happy with: we don't know, Bruce says so, and his teaching is consistent with his affirmation." Ah..."Bruce says so, and his teaching is consistent with his affirmation." Did you think it wouldn't be? To say we don't know is to completely ignore the fact that he is the only one ever to mention it. I absolutely happy that you are cool with that. Everyone believed Jim and Tammy Bakker as well. "If this makes no difference from a physical point of view this is irrelevant. This because those teaching are coming from a culture where the basic way to check if something is true or false is not the western scientific method." Care to site your source? "You don't find it tiring to stand with your hands up for long periods of time? I am sure many of your students do. And you are surprised that there are exercises that makes it feel more or less tiring?" Oh brother. I did santi and piquan only for a year with Bruce, nine breaths each posture. Odd he's saved this little gem for his latest market. Try it with your"exercises" and see how tired you're not. "Since we both agree that not finding someone else is not enough to prove that the claim is false I just could not find a reason for you to ask that question at all." What? Are you kidding? We DON"T agree. Not finding anyone else IS proof it's false. See my analogy about death above. "Now my claim is that it does not matter what is going on from a physical point of view. Not in the context of this discussion. This discussion is only trying to ascertain if Bruce has made those things up. My claim is that since he backed off his first vague explenations with more detailed further explanations, he is actually showing that his teaching are internally consistent. And this by itself should rule in his favour." That you can't see that this is a strawman argument is telling. But nice two step back from the physical realities. No point in letting facts obscure opinions. " Yeah, this is not a double blind. But is all we have." Well, it's not all we have. We have lies told by Bruce about his background and his own statements to others about what he is doing. "Also, let's not confuse the western way of breaking up the human body with the eastern one. Or it will all become a huge mess." Again, blind adherence to something one has put all one eggs into must trump reality. "there is a sense of oneness of the human body that is maintained throught he whole experience, something that is just missing," Hmmm, you'd think people wouldn't have to apologize for his public behavior, if he were so "one." "but now your question ("Can you cite me any other source for this claim?") becomes irrelevant." Since you can't answer it, you side step it. Everything you say boils down to "because Bruce says so." The power of suggestion is indeed a strong one. You're happy with this stuff P, good on ya. You getting the "advanced stuff" now so it shouldn't be long until you can beam your thoughts into my head. That way we can avoid all this typing.

Look Pietro, I'm done trying to convince you. You like what you are learning, fine. When you want to know more of the truth you can do your own research. It's all there, you just have to look. When you see one lie, you might expect more. Bruce's system doesn't come from Liu. Liu was primarily a Yin Fu bagua master. Zhu Baojian still lives and teaches in Beijing, he's been very candid about his senior brother. No taoist immortal stuff, no "guardian of the empire." Liu had great gongfu but he didn't teach it to Bruce. That said, Bruce was a serious martial artist in his own right. If you like all the stories he's told, try The Wandering Taoist. It's another neat bit of fiction. Your cup on this matter is full, so drink deeply.

Ah well "Spectrum," You want to speak in fortune cookie platitudes. I'm fine with that and if others want to find you wise, that's fine too. It's easy to just type things as if you have some understanding of skill. Come to EmptyFlower and discuss with actual people who practice what you profess. I'm Buddy Tripp. I'll give you my address and phone number if you like and we can continue this conversation in person. I'm not a nameless faceless moniker. So I call your bluff. I find you, as the bard described, "all sound and fury signifying nothing." But PM me and we can talk. But I don't suffer fools gladly. Buddy Tripp 90 Lookout Point Rd Plymouth Ma. See you soon? Liu's teacher's name is in Kumar's travelogue, The Power Of Internal Martial Arts. Sorry it's not on the tip of my tongue just now. His KF brother Zhu Baojian still lives and teaches in Beijing. Liu taught others, than Kumar and Bai Hua, contrary to what has been written. You can ask his (Zhu's) student Tomacz, who posts sometimes on EmptryFlower and Jarek's board as well.

Sorry, I wasn't talking to you so didn't know your response was to me. "It was an insult, I reacted. It may be the case that you didn't think about it. The statement was a personal attack in a discussion you didn't participate in earlier. Nobody else has accused Pietro for "hero worship". The wording implies that he has been totally brainwashed by his universal saviour, no longer able to think critically. Off course, we know that's not the case." You can read into my statement anything you like. I care only for my intent. I've seen hundreds come and go from very early on. Kumar's system (his, not Liu's) is an excellent one. But there are people still alive in China who knew and studied with Liu and his teacher. Not every picture tells a true story. "Writing that it is tiring to argue with a beginner doesn't really encourage any further discussion, especially when there's not many arguments or earnest discourse from the experienced one." I'm a former senior instructor in the system, taught at it's largest school, continue to provide personal instruction to its director. I've taught hundreds of students in person, it's tiring to try to instruct the unwilling. I have the luxury of not having to do it anymore. "Back it up then." What would have of me? Strike you from no distance and make your teeth rattle? Move the plates of my skull or individual vertabra? Let you feel me move my internal organs at will? I can do all these things but not from a keyboard. I was long a proponant of Kumar because I thought he had the best stuff. I still credit him with the majority of my achievement. But some things have to be taken with a grain of salt. Unless you don't prefer your truth savory.

Well, It's the absence of the previous pressing. The key phrase is "feel like". It's a perception not a real event. Similar, I suppose, to putting one hand in cold water and the other in hot. If you then put both into tepid water you will perceive it to be hotter or colder depending on the hand. I'm not trying to be a dick here, just pragmatic. Let's not fall into delusion simply because we want to believe.

Well, it is not merely this. You must do so with a relaxed-and-aligned-with-gravity structure that is intenally extended. In other words a constant state of "ready to exhibit pengjin". Otherwise it's simply waving one's arms in the air.

"It sounds like Internal Martial Arts as you've seen don't lead to 1) increased health over time or 2) any degree of wisdom. Do you see them as a waste of time?" Not at all. I believe they do. "You assume Bruce is teaching ... the same ol' stuff. Or seem to have heard about it only from third sources. This is why I say you don't know that." Again, you don't know what I know. Your comments are unfounded. "Yeah, Bill Ryan, he was at the workshop on using opening and closing in taoist meditation. Germany 2006. Ah...ok. That's all I need to know. "...and correct practice is rooted in study of what you don't know. " Ask on the Yahoo Taoist Water Tradition about what I know and what my reputation is. You don't know what I know. "Sure, if I ever see Bernie Langan, which I never met, I shall ask him if Buddy Trip is in the position to judge Bruce teachings, even the one he has never been exposed to." It's Tripp. You might be disappointed in Bernie has to say about Bruce. "At least in the sense that Liu either re-teached it to Bruce, or reorganised it, or sent Bruce to meet the person that would teach it to him. But I am very open to be corrected in any of this, if you have better information." Well, I do. You don't really want to know but here's a for instance. Gates came from Zhang Yizhung, a student of Wang Shujin. There's more but that's enough for you, you'll come up with some excuse not to believe it. "Ok, I'll respect your necessity for privacy." It's not my privacy, I'm an open book. It's so as to not gossip about others in public.

",,,that comprised about 200 postures, that alone are able to open up the whole body. Have you got any problem with this claim?" Sure I do. Can you cite me any other source for this claim? "I also said that the hands should not just be stuck up, but the energy should rise them. And as such it might take many months, after you have learned how to rise the energy to have your energy being at heart level. Even if you practice hours every day. Have you got a problem with this claim?" Yes indeed. The energy rises them up? You mean no physical action is required? If I practice santi or any other posture it is ineffective because I just put my body that position? I can readily show the power. It's tiring to argue with a beginner.

Ah, the indulgence of youth. I know Kumar is claiming that he's on his second decade of teaching. But where did it come from. From Liu? If you're happy to think that then I'm happy to have you do so. "But I disagree that you "know what Bruce teaches". Well how can you? You don't know what I know. "This is not said by me, but by Bruce himself, by Alan, and confirmed by Bill who was there." I know what Kumar says. I don't think I know your teacher but I'd be happy to have him show me his advancement. Bill? Bill Ryan? If so, what do you know of Bill's advancement? I might be shocked about Bill. "I did notice that while doing spiraling my body started moving faster, less predictably than before." Less predictably? Do you want your body to be out of your control and unpredictable? I found more access to my body and thereby more predictability. "Bruce say it is. Who is right? I suspect I am the least person who can say. But my suspect is that it is. Yes, even if you are my senior, and your students can reproduce it all, and not because of this they are better martial artists." Can you tell me someone of the current crop that can show me? Bruce can't any longer. "Is "fourth space" (now doesn't that sound cool, and very esoteric!), the ability to feel the whole body not going to be useful at all. Even though we have been told they are the meat and bone of high level martial arts?" I can feel my enitre body without this "fourth space." The meat and bone of martial arts is correct practice not some pseudo-etheric nonsense. "I just don't see none of us in the position to judge right now." Well, you're not in a position to judge perhaps. But you don't know about me. Or my contemporaries. Ask Bernie Langan. "Your younger brother in the school." Have you jumped ahead of your teacher? Did he bring you to Bruce? You would be my nephew but I am Yizong now. "But what about the new stuff." Ah, theres' the rub. Where did it come from. You think it's from Liu. "So, no, I am quite happy to see them being "normal" not holy or enlightened human beings. But is that what you are trying to become, and why you left Bruce?" Well we can't go here because that would bring up others peccadilloes. Normal is a relative term and there are things about others that you don't know. Not my idea of normal. "When I shall be perfect I will start to judge other people's progress." Well good on you. My bullshit detector is set lower than yours. My teacher is Kumar's senior, not because of that, but because I'm interested in quality. I know people who studied with Liu's KF brothers and there are differences in the stories. I've spoke with those whom Bruce has been more candid with than he is usually with his paying customers. But the bottom line is if you like it than it's fine for you. I have reservations that if you are being sold some "advanced" level if you haven't got the basics down, that you get what you want to hear rather than what you need. If you get to the States I'll give a free lesson and we can see who knows what. Or not. Just, Buddy

OK you start. Mostly I find adherents resenting this sort of exercise.

Not at all. My point is I don't need to defend my position. I'm not trying to convince anyone. I understand modern definition of energy but it's such a charged word in this context. I've seen many many people talk about energy. And generally they don't know they they are talking about, or they do practices that harm them because they are not grounded in the physical body. I am happy to discuss my experiences. I've got something, less than my teachers and more than my students. Behind my keyboard I can't tell where any of you are in that spectrum. But with Kumar's stuff, I know what's what and what isn't. I've been privy to folks that not everyone in our line has. But all that stuff is just gossip. Anything anyone wants to know about the training, I'm happy to tell. There are no secrets only things you don't know yet. If I tell you everything I know it's just neat info. If you don't practice and investigate with someone who can already do it, you might as well read it in a fortune cookie. Look, I'm 50. Got a wonderful wife, great kids (all grown) and a pretty good life. My need to impress is long gone by.

Pietro, I am your senior. By many years. I know what Bruce teaches and I can readily duplicate it. No need for such defensiveness. I don't mean to burst your bubble but all this energetic stuff, while cool sounding, is no aid to learning how to use martial arts. Everything from Gates to Gods teaches real and specific physical skills. My own students can duplicate them. But because there is a particular market for cool sounding stuff and Kumar can't teach martial arts anymore the current crowd likes esoteric information. Information is light years from knowledge and skill. I don't say this to piss you off because I've been where you are. Don't you think that the seniors that you see at workshops should be more...enlightened than they are? Don't you think Kumar would be in better health? This is to take nothing away from him and his "system". But I don't see it being taught to where anyone can understand it. So when I hear people talk about things like "clearing the etheric body" I am dubious. I did this stuff a long time as did my seniors. Show me your cleared etheric body. I can readily show you internal power. Other guy (sorry I don't like monikers), What Luo is doing is completely based in the physical. We never talk about "energy". We talk about how to do it. Spiraling in xingyiquan and baguazhang is called luoxuanjin. Spiraling and twisting trained power. Not energy, power. No need to think about the qi, it takes care of itself. More important is the yi, IMO. In Yizong we train, as a progression but also simultaneously, Choreography, Structure/Power, Continuity, and Intention. The training must always be the same. Grounded completely in the physical (it's where we live) then applied to: self defense, spiritual pursuits, healing yourself and others. Those are only applications of hard work. Neigong is not an easy road, it's gongfu. Otherwise it's all talk and waving your hands in the air. Sorry to ramble, I've given up trying to teach anyone in this medium. But I know what I can do and why. Much of it is from Bruce's neigong. And it was hard work to figure it out. It does not need to take anyone as long as it took me and I'm fairly clever. Take it or leave it, it doesn't matter much to me, I already have it.

Well if you can do it I'd be happy to see it. But I taught for Bruce in Cali so I think I'm qualified to comment. I think you'll find not everything Bruce said about Liu (and other things) is true. I started with him in the mid 80s, when he could still move. His stuff is good but not all it is claimed to be. I think I've posted this before but here's my teacher doing the Rooster from xingyi. This is how it should be done.

I don't know why you'd say that. I studied with his teacher for over ten years and know things he apparently doesn't.