ZenStatic

Thanks for the Support Stig. That was one of the threads & posts I was on about.

 

Like I stated Earlier. Taoism has an almost Infinite amount of Talismans & Mantras for every circumstance imaginable. For You (YM WONG) to say it has Nothing to do with Taoism is completely false & Clearly points to a biased opinion.

 

Claiming Authority & Knowledge about every single Taoist Talisman is purely Ridiculous. In essence thats what your comments meant. I highly doubt that Even the great Masters such as Wang Liping or John Chang would even make such bold claims, Yet a nobody such as yourself decides to say what Is & Is not Taoism.

 

Give Me a Break.

 

Deep down, i Feel that Wong is upset with Westerners having first hand information on such knowledge.The Luk-Yum & Various other threads proved That with His "Dont Tell Them Too Much Attitude". Something I Despise.

 

Regards.

So basically, you are saying that because he has first hand knowledge about this, and doesn't say what agrees with what you think, he is a racist? Way to go off the deep end buddy.

Well, I have been looking around at the Kava, and it seems there is a multitude of prices and places to get it. How can I find a place where I know for sure I am getting the "good stuff"?

Well put xuesheng. The reason I personally didn't answer this question before, was to give it some major though. And really, I still have no answer. Do I know exactly what Taoism is? No. But, I do know some things that it is not. It is not just reading a few books and trying to talk in paradoxes. It's not taking a few pieces of what you have heard, and combining it with another religion for your own personal Taoism.

Let me go deeper into that before I get lynched. The Tao, is part of everything. Plants, animals, people, stars, qi, etc. On this I think we can all agree. But Taoism, is something different. I think of it like this. The goals of the Jews, Catholics, Evangelicals, Muslims are all the same. Get to heaven, and not go to hell. Now, I am not saying you have to be one of those to try for that goal. But, just because you strive for that, does not make you a Jew, Catholic, Evangelical, or Muslim. And it doesn't give you the right to call yourself one either. Now, the vast majority of us on this board, strive to come into harmony with the Tao. Just because that is our goal, doesn't make us a Taoist. We may be a student of the Tao, study it, and cultivate to get closer to it; but by choosing to ignore other things that have always been connected to Taoism, rather negates our right to call ourselves a Taoist. Myself, I am as syncretic as they come; I just call myself a Seeker, and leave it at that.

I'm sure many will disagree with what I have said here, and if you do, I ask you to stop and think for a moment. Is it because I am wrong, or because it goes against what you think of yourself?

YES! I am with you No ism's for me, nothing so strict could be Tao, named it is not it, defined it is not it. It was only named, reluctantly by Lau Tzu anyway as he says else where in the TTC.

 

When I find it it my life, I more often refer to it as "Wow", than Tao, as it is clear, striking, but not-put-into-wordable.

See, what I find interesting, is that you guys are proponents of no kinds of worship, etc; but you do exactly that with LaoTzu and the TTC. You are using the TTC exactly as a Christian would use his bible.

the printed appearance is like Mak said you have to carve copies of lineage stamps from your master and each takes 9 hours by yourself carving from start to finish, each sect has its own particular seals of authority so depending on your sect you will get different stamps which will give printed seals to be superimposed over the written talisman. If it is unstamped in some cases, the talisman is said to be not authorised. The printed appearance is merely the 3 stamps over the written talisman, the Fu letters, have been written in caligraphy before being stamped, and then the talisman is stamped and then consecrated at the altar which has itself been authenticated with a lineage tablet which has been provided by your master and sect lineage, without which the Fu would be ineffective.

Forgive me if I break this down too much, and if so please correct me, I'm just trying to figure this out in terminology that makes more sense to me. So basically, when you create these seals they are sort of infused with the energy of your lineage, and then when you stamp a Fu, along with the consecration, it is essentially activating the spell put onto the Fu?

Thats analogous to saying eastern orthodox christianity is not real christianity because it draws from different influences and practices different things from Roman catholicism. I do not think Taoism is a monolithic religion and I do not think that mixing elements from traditions (especially traditions that have so much in common) lessens people's claims that they pratice Taoism or want to achieve harmony with Tao (which I think is the fundemental purpose of it, not a bunch of magic and dogma). Like I said, it depends on who is defining Taoism. I ask you to give me a defenition of Taoism. I do not care if Mak Tin Si is a priest, or has some esoteric hereditary knowledge, it does not make his idea of what Taoism is any more true.

No, you make a horrible correlation there. It is more along the lines of comparing gnosticism with christianity. Because it takes parts of xtianity that it likes, and leaves other parts and combines everything with other beliefs.

And what traditions have so much in common that you are talking about? Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, New Age, what? Because they are all quite different, if you look at the whole, not just the little parts you want. But no matter if you like it or not, when you mix and match, it does indeed lessen what you may choose to call it. If I take 1 cup of orange kool aid, and a half cup each of lime, fruit punch, and grape, I can't really call it orange kool aid anymore, can I? It is still kool aid, which is akin to spirituality, but its not orange, which would be taoism. People can call things anything they want; that just doesn't change reality.

I'll share some info with you, I'm not allowed share any more info than the one below.

 

Here is a typical example of how the Taoist Mao Shan sect make Fu's.

 

1) Mantras to purify heart, speech/mouth and body.

2) Earth deity mantra, Purify heaven and earth mantra, great brilliance mantra, wish fulfilling incense mantra, mysterious spiritual gatheing mantra.

3) Taoist deity/ God invocation mantra.

4) Blessing and empowering of inventory: empower paper, water, ink, brush.

5) Drawing the 3 strokes (The 3 Pure Ones, the highest deities of taoism).

6)The Ninth Heaven Mysterious Lady Empowerment Mantra.

7) Then draw talisman, recite mantra with mudra to empower and then seal.

 

Below is an example of a finished talisman. The Tai Shang Lao Zun Talisman for Protection

 

 

Interesting. The only thing I am wondering is why does it look like it was printed on, not hand done? Or is it just a weird play on vision because of the picture?

Well, if most of us are honest, we don't practice taoism. We practice a syncretic mixture of the things that resonate with us throughout many different traditions. So he really does have a point with that.

I'm sorry if it seemed as though I was coming off wanting to know how to do them. I was thinking more along of the lines of problems of mine that they could help

Well, what kinds of things would these be used for? It's easy for me to understand the reasoning behind the ritualistic parts of it, but unless I missed something, you didn't really go into their usage.

MTS is still "sharing", and I am glad that he is.

 

However, he's not really sharing much or at all, because he keeps 90% of it confidential. Mostly it's like throwing out some bait to see if anyone bites and wants to sign up or become his personal student or something like that. Then out of 100 students he's going to teach 1 or 2 people the real stuff. That's the "closed door" tradition that I loathe so much. So he's not sharing in the Western sense of the word "sharing", which is definitely a sense I strongly prefer and I think for a good reason too.

 

So we're essentially getting little brochures of his sect. If you enjoy getting them, that's fine, and I am not against it too much as long as he doesn't say something that's too awfully wrong, at which point I will comment once again if I am still reading this forum.

He kind of does. Maybe not in exactly those words, but there are plenty of examples to see what he means.

What a cool example! And yes, I see what you mean. And you know what? I think you are wrong. Real masters, the immortals, were not afraid of any silly emperor and didn't care if they died or lived. In fact, if they were not 100% happy, they had a habit of dropping their body right on the spot.

 

The immortals-to-be, the master-in-training were driven into the mountains because of this. So a guy like Zhuangzi might be somewhat like what you describe, but he made sure to remove himself as far as possible from politics. Since sages like Zhuangzi were seen as non-participants and non-contenders, they could speak more honestly and get away with it, because they didn't agitate the people for a rebellion or anything like that (with some exceptions I guess?). Zhungzi declined serving the emperor precisely to be able to preserve his honesty.

 

In today's age we have no emperors. We can speak a lot more freely. We really should take advantage of that! Western society is every taoist's wish come true when it comes to freedom of speech values (confucianists would probably hate it though!). Sure we have all kinds of cultural problems, especially greed, but we have many good qualities that the sages would praise. And we are actually a lot less greedy than the Chinese, as a culture.

 

I aim to rise above the materiality 100%. If that means some day some emperor will kill me, I accept it. I might kill the emperor before dying though. Or leave the emperor without an eye. I have no pity for fools and don't mind ruining their bodies if they are a big fool, like would be the case with an emperor.

If that is going to consistently be your attitude, why don't you just do the majority of us a favor, and go now? Your type of close minded, superiority complex bullshit is the reason a lot of people turn away from lots of things to do with spirituality. You talk shit about someone you don't know, bash a sect you have no real knowledge of, then proceed to tell everyone that you are the on that knows what is right. As they say, the proof is in the pudding. 1 person is sharing knowledge, the other is mouthing off about how the other is a liar and he just "knows" it, even though he has no real knowledge in the area. Hopefully you can see the point.

I tried drinking chamomile for a while to help myself stay a bit more calm and relaxed, but I found that it didn't really help. I figured with the amount of knowledge we have around here, people may know of some herbs that I can use to make teas that are going to help. For what it's worth, I have an 8 yr old son with high-functioning autism, so things can be very stressful at times, and I would prefer to be calmer most of the time.

Rasayana, that site you linked to mentioned this as a form of weight loss as well? I just can't imagine it would be a good idea to try to lose weight this way.

It's possible to be honest and yet not speak from the heart. This happens when you give something factually correct, but something that doesn't connect to a deep purpose or deep longing or the true intention of the heart.

So now you have some kind of mystical power to know when people are or are not speaking from the heart? You're more full of shit than you can ever make this guy look.

she said she would do anything to stay with me. I was considering taking her back, not having sex, and going to AA with her. but I don't know if that's how things would work out. I think it's best if I just go through with life. She believes in the taoist way of life, and chakra meditations, and she has access to an intuitive spiritual counselor who use to be an addiction counselor. She said if she wasn't with me, there would be no point for her to do these things that could help her be happy. So hopefully she realizes what's best for her.

If she gets sober, or anything else, just to keep you, then she will fail. She has to want to actually better herself for herself, rather than someone else. She may just need to hit her bottom yet to really want to change.

Good post Gold, especially:

Why not make a "Religious Taoism" subforum for those interested in this type of Taoist activities?

Because this IS a taoist forum, and its a taoist topic. Things should be segregated to as not offend your sensibilities?

See, my problem is not with the attitude. I don't mind a little bit of arrogance if there is some insight in the post. However, this guy showed arrogance without the corresponding insight. So my qualm was with his delusion and not with his attitude. I don't mind if the attitude is very pleasant or a little rough. There is plenty of room for the attitude to roam around, but I reserve this roaming around for people who bring something valuable to the table. On the other hand, I don't suffer fools no matter how golden or silky their attitude may be (unless they sincerely want to improve their condition, in that case there is no problem with ignorance).

 

So while some people here didn't like the arrogance, I didn't like the message. In other words, while many have disagreed with HOW he said things, I have disagreed with WHAT he said. Saying it nicer wouldn't have made me happier at all.

 

Secondly, I'm an ESL person myself. English is a second language to me. So I know a thing or two about the whole process of learning a new language. And believe you me, this guy was not making a linguistic mistake! I'll never ever believe that. I know what language mistakes are like. I've made many of them in my time (and probably still make them from time to time), but this guy ain't it. He's English is alright. He certainly knows what he is saying and how he comes across.

Hey, if he is the real deal, and wants to help people (as opposed to find recruits for his temple, and with his talk of opening the lions in order to bring more people to burn more incense, I do wonder), he won't mind genuine criticism and honest contradiction. I've debated many, MANY times with all kinds of people, and trust me, the real deal people do not back down so easily. They enter into debates and actually discuss matters. They are never afraid to directly address all the issues raised and feel quite comfortable with an occasional put down, as long as put downs is not all there is to read. Every one of those true sages understands the concept of "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen". These people realize that they are lions teaching lions. They don't expect people to meekly and compliantly lick the honey of the razor blade they offer while saying "yes master... yes yes... oh master".

 

My opinion is that this guy has no real knowledge. If he disappears, it's like losing a pimple at the tip of your nose. No big loss. He talks about charms, but he says they have to be done in Chinese. It's obvious this guy doesn't know the principle behind the charms if he seriously believes that. On the other hand, if he knows better but deceives us knowingly, then he is an evil man who is much worse than I believe he is (and I believe he is semi-innocently ignorant).

And the truth comes shining through. YOU don't like the knowledge he is trying to share, because YOU think that ritual, spells, etc is bullshit. YOU think you know more, so YOU are going to try and tear this man down for it.

All in all, thats pretty damn pathetic. You're not him, you haven't ever done any of the things he speaks of, and you have no real experiential idea as to anything he has tried to share. Instead, from a close minded position, you attack and go way out of bounds. Your acting worse than the strawman you just created out of your opinion of him.

No, you appear to roll religious rituals into the tao so that's what put me off with the question.

What rock did you pull that from under? I don't know where you got that idea from.

Due to the forum's diversity, there will be people here I do enjoy reading. But more importantly, I do not have prejudice against that guy. We can easily become the best of friends. This will happen when he starts sharing from the heart and spares us the traditional dogma that is not only irrelevant in a spiritual path, but that is actually an obscuration that has to be actively purified away.

Nothing is beyond reproach. When I say what I say, I am also "just sharing". Had I said it even slightly differently, the meaning wouldn't be exactly the same. Both feelings and reason have a place. When I say something, I don't expect a universal acceptance. I don't expect respect. I do expect someone to read what I say with an open mind and then if the criticisms appear, I sure would like to hear them. So I don't have any internal issues posting the way I do. In other words, I am congruent, but I do thank you for your help in keeping me on my toes. Guys like you won't let me stray too far from the truth. And I am to that "taoist master" what you are to me. I perform the same function for him as you for me.

How do you know he is not sharing form the heart? People raised in religious taoism aren't honest then I guess you are saying? Or what exactly is your point?

Plain and simple, there is no need to be an asshole, especially to someone new to the forums. There is a such thing called constructive criticism.

Where is the distinction between adherent and Dao?

I have no idea how to respond to this. I haven't yet seen anyone here say that they have finally become one with the tao, so I would figure it is pretty common sense.

It appears everyone has their own idea of what Tao is so this is a loaded question.

How so? Either you believe you mold yourself to the tao, or you believe the tao should mold itself to you. Pretty simple.

LOL!! What irony!!! Oh my. I guess you don't see it. Once upon the time there was this guy Jesus. He said, mostly I like Judaism, but I will stress this part, and this part we no longer need to do, blah blah.... Here's how it is, what I say is the truth...but on the other hand, I didn't come to change the law, only to clarify it. Blah blah blah... the end result of this impure mishmush is what we now call "Chrsitianity". So, don't you get it? All these things that you want to access and/or keep in their pristine forms are not pure, not pristine, have NEVER had a pure form, and are a result of chaotic mixing of everything. And culturally Christians have summarily borrowed pretty much all the Celtic festivals as well. Christianity is a mutt and you want to keep its purity? Taoism is a mutt, and so is Buddhism.

 

Open your eyes! You want to preserve purity that doesn't exist. Spiritual authenticity does not reside in some concrete well-defined form! This lesson is taught over and over by many masters, saints and bums, but some people just fail to learn it. You are one of them, lostmonk.

That's a patently false assertion. I am going to call you a liar.

Who said anything about keeping purity? No matter if you care or not, it is a fact that the taoism you claim to follow, is but 1 part of what is out there. Your comprehension skills just leave me in awe. Your personal attacks, are just expected. Savages act savagely.

Great! I have no problem with that. I'm not telling him not to share... Just don't demean others in the process..

Share whatever you want. I will be as grateful as anyone else.. His knowledge is not the issue.

 

I'm not dismissing his religion at all. I'm dismissing his lack of respect and tact.

 

being a priest doesn't give him a special pass to be disrespectful and demeaning. A priest needs to be more respectful to people. His job is to help. So, as a priest, he needs to be more humble than the rest of us not less humble...

 

Look, let's be real here... If hari krishanas came on taobums saying their way was the best or the only way to God, we would all speak out against that. Just because the guy is taoist priest doesn't give him the right to disrespect anyone else. If you want respect you have to give it. Plus as I have already said. there are many sects of Tao and not all of them agree with each other. So, just because he is taoist priest doesn't mean he speaks for all Taoism. He can only speak for his sect. And even then, I don't even know who he is within his own sect. I don't even know which sect he is from.. I am sure he isn't from mine...

 

If he had said, "In my tradition we believe.." Or " I was taught..." there would be no problem. But, just because he is a priest, doesn't give him any special priviledges.

I disagree. This happens all the time. There are so many different Christian sects that have basically done that exact thing. The same is true in taoism. As I have said, I have no disagreement with his info or knowledge, I am only responding to his arrogance... Priest or no priest, it ain't cool.

Listen, I'm not the guys defender. I agree he came off as arrogant. Personally, I just glossed over it becuase I am somewhat used to having to deal with attitudes like that. My issue was with the fact that, rather than someone just mention that he was coming off that way, which he may not have realized since english is obviously not his first language, people flipped out and started being utter assholes. As far as I know, the goal is for people to learn from each other, not drive someone off right away because you don't like his style.

I question everyone here and elsewhere who claims that their way is the best way. Everyone, encluding my own sifu! I mean no disrespect. I only mean to open the doors that seperate levels of hierarchical standing we each impose on ourselves and each other, this is so- even when I agree with the premisses involved.

 

Up is down from hemisphere to hemisphere, perspective is dubious

 

that we are are all one thing-(beings of mostly light) - I may take for granted...The rest seems beside the point...

Heh, what you said made me think of something I have heard before. "If you don't believe you have the best teacher in the world, then you need a new teacher."

Curious to see the answers.

lostmonk,

 

Or He needs to try to understand our culture and develop a 'thicker skin'. This is a forum which things can be debated and discussed openly which is different than in person so ppl can respond in a more brash way. I'm not saying it's the best but it does have some advantages. It means the response will be looked at from all sides and be taken apart left and right. If it holds up, great. If not, there's a problem. Outside of a forum ppl's ideas are not usually challanged in this way. I think it's good for all sides outside of any idiots who just post garbage responses.

 

So, anyone who brings something to the table here needs to be ready for a response that's going to be different from an unchallenged response that may normally happen face to face.

 

I remember an instance in a different forum (martial arts) where this guy had all the answers in his own mind. After posting several days his ideas were taken apart left and right and they didn't hold up. So, he needed to go back and re-evaluate his stuff. In the real world if he went out with that stuff he would have a much harder lesson.

Well, #1, why would he need to develop a thicker skin, when he is not the one complaining about the way he is being treated? As far as getting to know our culture, which culture would that be? We have a lot of nationalities here. #2, just because someone is on an "anonymous" forum, doesn't give them the right to act like an ass. There was no challenging or taking apart of ideas. There was people disagreeing and taking out there disdain for "organized religion" on this guy. It's really quite sad.

If these kinds of posts are going to be the new guard of TTB, then things could get mighty bleak around here. People will stop posting things for fear the goon squad will come and verbally beat them because they don't agree.

I get it. You are doing us a favor. You are posting this almost against your wishes. Nice (not so) subtle way to put us all down before you begin.

He said someone asked him to post it. Nowhere does he come even close to putting everyone down, at all. That's just your own bullshit clouding your vision.

Wow, just wow. Does anyone understand the subtle significance of this? What this guy is doing is he's degrading your symbolism (English language) in favor of a foreign one (Chinese language). He's basically spitting in your soul. But it's worse than that. What he says is that English language has no power, and that only Chinese has power. Never mind the fact that not a single Chinese Shaman cast a single spell in the foreign language from another continent in order to gain power! Ahaha... So all of them did it in their own language and they did just fine.

 

Also look what happened with Tibetan Buddhism. When Buddhism came to Tibet, ALL OF IT was translated into Tibetan. For example in Dzogchen, a lot of highly technical Tibetan vocabulary appeared for all the relevant phenomena of consciousness. Not a single Sanskrit word remained in wide use. But the Tibetans will not do the same for English. They come over here and you read their books and they are just peppered with Tibetan. Do you realize that Tibetans can't even pronounce the Sanskrit mantras correctly? "Peme" LOL!!! What PEME?? It's PADME. But none of this has impeded the spiritual development of Tibetans! They did just fine in their own language and with the incorrect pronunciation of the Sanskrit mantras, which surely should have destroyed the power of the mantra!

 

The same happens in many spiritual traditions. The West is being spiritually raped in this way.

 

It's one thing to bring wisdom and to enlighten our understanding of our own symbols. But it's an entirely another thing to come here and insinuate that our symbols have no power, and that the power comes from this tightly guarded secret source, from far away. One way to do this kind of power play is to denigrate the native language.

 

Let's put an end to this once and for all. Let everyone become awake to the full power of our internal meaning. The English language is not deficient in any way. It's exactly, precisely every bit as powerful and as magical as Chinese, Tibetan, Sanskrit, Hebrew, Egyptian, Greek, Latin (see how many times we have been raped in the past?). Restore the power back to your own mind. Restore the power back to your own symbols.

 

Look at me. I came from another country too. I learned English as a second language. I don't go around putting down English. When I talk to English people I explain to them that English has limitless power, magic and potential. I don't say, hey, your language is for n00bs, learn my language to be a master.

You really can't see the difference between English and other languages? Anytime you try to take something out of its original language, there is a huge potential for lots to get lost. Look at all the issues Christianity and Islam have, all because of different translations of their book. And then look at how the jews solve the problem. They require all young men that wish to delve deeper into judaism to learn hebrew. Period. That way there can be no issue at all with what is meant. Even the TTC. Go compare different translations. You get a much different idea from many of them with the way they put things.

And then, you compare taoist practices to buddhist practices? In this case they surely are very different. Perhaps I am wrong, but taoist spells would involve qi gathering, redirecting, usage etc. Work with a specific, tangible, energy. Buddhist mantras, for the most part, are for the speaker to focus. And in some cases are a prayer. Different on so many levels.

Okay. We get it. You resent this guy because he is part of an "organized religion." If you feel the need to disrespect everything he has to say in every post, why are you even here on a forum that takes pride in its diversity? If he becomes another "join me or the world will end" kind of guy, then it will be dealt with. But while he is sharing knowledge from the way he was taught and trained, why don't you just leave your own issues outside.