ZenStatic

Interesting logic - not sure I find it sound but as long as you understand it

 

So let me get this right - If I told you that I don't beleive that democracy works and that government is corrupt am I saying that I hate society?

 

It seems everything becomes personalized with some here. So is a discussion only considered a discussion if it wanders down familiar paths? Is there only one way of looking at religion? Through the eyes of the blind perhaps.

Hate is such a powerfully negative word - to so carelessly throw it around. Are you a monk? Sorry to have rattled anyones cage.

If you said ALL governments don't work, and ALL governments are corrupt, then proceeded to spread misinformation to try and spread that same feeling; then yes, I would say you hate government. The fact of the matter is, the calls to destroy religion are just as oppressive as the claims as have been made against religion. There are millions of people in the world that WANT to carry on in blind faith. It helps them make it through the day, and countless horrible situations. Simply put, those that don't like religion shouldn't practice it. But that doesn't give them the right to try and ruin it for others.

very enlightening lol

 

I do believe Ralis is correct. I'm very surprised actually that so many here are not in agreement. Too much interfaith here perhaps :-)

 

I'm wondering how exactly is this "harmony" defined? Getting people to stop killing each other because of religious beliefs?

From the header when you first come in: "Discussion is encouraged to wander eclectically across a wide range of spiritual thought and practice, whether Buddhist, Yogic, Tantric, Judaic, Advaitic, Christian, Islamic, Shamanic, Occult, "New Age", Integral". I'm rather the opposite. I'm surprised that ralis has so many agreeing with him. Personally, I would prefer the wannabe atheist religion haters to take it somewhere else, but I don't run this place.

Actually you are the one in error. Campbell makes clear that the origin of monotheism stems from Mesopotamia, not Egypt. It was the domination of one tribal God over all others i.e, Yahweh became the dominate deity. As a result, the Hebrew people killed off whomever did not venerate their version of God i.e, tribal God. Thus became the edict under pain of death: "Thou shalt not have no other Gods before me". History is not in dispute over this matter.

 

So far I have referred to excellent scholarship and I can provide more. However, you have provided no references to back your arguments. Eliade's work is excellent. Especially his work on Shamanism.

 

Scholarship is more valuable and respected with scholars coming in from another countries institutions. This can provide a more objective view instead of the usual emotional revisionist view of someone deeply invested in a particular system. For instance, the revisionist view of Padmasambhava. There is much debate as to whether he is a mythological figure or historical reality.

 

When it comes to matters of religion and spirituality, one who questions and uses any critical thinking is afforded no respect. There is an anti-intellectual movement in new age and spiritual circles that abhors critical thinking and scholarship. I have been told that I am "just in my head".

 

I think by this discussion, it is obvious that inter group harmony is difficult or impossible at best. I have demonstrated that when asking questions and stating facts that are of value, the party with whom I am speaking will not engage in a forthright manner. I am accused of lies and deception. Lostmonk will not for one moment question his beliefs. That is his prerogative. I have not proceeded with this discussion out of some malice towards anyone. My concern is the suppression of people that continues to be put forth in the name of some institution, religion or whatever the higher cause. One is asked to purify and sacrifice for that cause. Why? History records many instances of atrocities in the name of a higher cause, be it racial genocide, burning at the stake for purification of the soul. Even bowing before a so called enlightened being is a form of suppression. That very act leaves one with the impression of being lesser than.

Lostmonk: You proceed from incorrect conclusions about what I write. Doctrines? I have stated none. My whole approach is to make a series of statements as to how one becomes a slave to suppression by authoritarianism. That is all.

 

Lets just look at this idea of prostrating before the Lama. Is it a choice one can make or is it an absolute requirement? Is there a stigma attached to one if one chooses not to participate? What if one were to go outside and do the prostrations instead of before the Lama?

 

I already know the answer, because it is all tied up in one's vows. If one breaks one's vows, then there is karmic retribution. Hell realms etc. Who created these vows? Sounds like the Dark Ages to me.

 

I have read the texts around all of this. "The Torch of Certainty" and there is another one that I can't recall the title at the moment. In sum, these books describe the hell realms that one enters if one breaks one's vows. Having sex within so many feet of a Lama will propel one into some weird state of hell. Now be honest with me Lostmonk. Is this not suppression based on fear and manipulation? No matter what culture or who this is perpetrated against? Is this not power used against naive individuals, who have never had a chance to think for themselves rather than being slaves to fear and superstition? You claim these are the "eastern ways" and some naive westerner could never comprehend their ways.

 

Sorry to disappoint, but east and west are merely points of reference and are not excuses for the behavior that we have been discussing.

 

Prove to me that religion is not oppressive. Read the excellent work by Wilhelm Reich "Mass Psychology of Fascism".

I have approached my life from a spirit of exploration and curiosity. I have questioned every one of my beliefs and can trace back all of my beliefs to guilt, fear, trauma, family conditioning and my naive acceptance of so called religious values. The religious values were supposedly for my own good. The systems were not only Judeo Christian values in the west, but a thorough indoctrination of eastern values in many different belief systems. This required a great deal of self honesty on my part. This kind of self honesty does not come without a price.

 

You accuse me of being only rational and logical to a fault. I have had experiences, that can neither be quantified or semantically described.

 

ralis

Ah, the wonders of it all. Scholars from another institution can provide a more objective view. That's beyond amusing; because you ignore the most basic premise to someone being a reliable source. they must know the culture about which they are even writing, otherwise it is uneducated drivel. Theory is not helpful in the realm of comparative religion.

You are nto asking questions or stating facts. You are trying to further your own viewpoint at the expense of the truth. You have flat out lied a few times, and misrepresented what things are even more. And there is no reason for me to question my beliefs. I do not practice Tibetan Buddhism in any way shape or form. It is not my beliefs that you attack with lies and misinformation. But, I would be remiss in my duty as a human being to stand by and let you trash that which you obviously don't know, and let your lies run rampant.

You see things as supression and such because you have no belief in the power of anything being discussed. So at the point it is recognized that you have no belief in karma, the hells, etc, why is your opinion relevant? You're not trying to educate anyone on the belief, you're only bashing that which you don't agree with. If you don't agree with something, then state that. But don't think you have the right to lie and misinform others about it.

If you can't fathom the differences between eastern and western cultures, you're in severe need of some kind of therapy.

All social atmospheres are oppressive to a point. Not just religions, but workplaces, schools, anything. Is religion formed purely for the reason of keeping people from attaining their potential? Thats crap. Of course you can trace your beliefs back to those feelings; because the negative feelings we have are what religion most tries to help people with.

If you want to receive a simple step-by-step guideline you can follow, of course what I say will sounds confusing, because I am saying that the step-by-step guides are an entry into hell over the long term, because step-by-step guidelines cultivate bad mind habits of mindless following.

 

Now, if you truly understand the nature of my critique, it would be the height of ignorance to imply that the problem with what I am saying is that my "doctrine" is self-purifying. It's not a problem, but a feature of it. My doctrine purifies other doctrines and then purifies itself as well. Nothing is left in the end but the infinite possibility, but this means you have to become responsible. You have to become a leader of your own life, and not a follower. The lord of your senses and not a victim.

Reason is awesome, isn't it? Reason trumps all indeed. Why? Because those that rely on reason are swayed by reason, and those that do not rely on reason are swayed by various phenomena in an arbitrary fashion. Should there be a lack of arbitrariness, that is the presence of reason. Furthermore, anything that has to do with identities and relations is governed by reason. If you can name it, and if you can point at it, it is governed by reason.

You said truth is never in doctrine. Yet, you spout off your own doctrine. See the paradox now?

And no, reason does not trump all. There has been, and always will be, things that happene that fall outside the realm of reason. We have no explanations, they don't fit into logic. But that makes them no less real.

Oh, and if you truly want to be a leader as you state, don't learn anything from anyone else. Because well, then you are just following.

We happen to have a traditional Tibetan Stupa here in Santa Fe. The Lama sits high up on a throne and the students sit on the floor beneath him. The students sit after the Lama enters and after he sits they all do three prostrations before him. If that not giving allegiance to royalty? Have you been to such a teaching?

 

I suggest you read in "The Masks Of God" the origin of the priesthood and how that system became the intercessor between the tribal shaman and the members of the tribe. This is also the beginnings of monotheism and religious orders on this planet.

 

My pointing out of facts are easily verified if you take the time to look.

 

It is strange how you see my pointing out as an insult, rather than as a way to liberate people from religious oppression.

 

ralis

No, its not giving allegiance to royalty. As was previosuly pointed out, you bring your western viewpoint to things, and apply that. Prostrations have many different uses in Buddhism. Sometimes it is the 3 to show veneration to the Triple Gem. Most often in Vajrayana, Tibetan, it is done to purify; body, speech, then mind; before practice or teachings are done.

You are taking apples, oranges, tomatoes and grapes; throwing them all in 1 bowl, and saying how they are all the same because they are fruits. It just isn't like that. No matter how much you try, it never will be. You're using as reference a series of books published back in the 60's, which greatly operate on the ridiculous notion that all religions stemmed from the ancient egyptians. If Campbell could write those books with the knowledge out there now, I think he would have different things to say.

You constantly stating that all religion is oppression is what is insulting. Especially when many of your points are made with an ignorance of facts.

Lotus Sutra

Diamond Sutra

_/\_ Amituofo

You neither understand arguments or know how to respond without emotion. I am stating facts about all religious suppression. This is not about holding grudges. A lot of people hold the view that Tibetan Lamas see westerners as heathens. Just because they come to the west and set up shop, does not automatically grant them respect. Respect is not automatically given if one is wearing robes and sits on a throne. Has this Dharmic religious view made an effect on peoples lives in the west? Only time will tell.

 

Have you read Campbells works? I have.

 

Lopez is not a friend or my buddy.

 

You chose the term bullshit, not I.

 

Are you from Tibet or an eastern country? I can have my friend (who is a Tibetan refugee) write a more scathing expose on Tibet. If you like, I could arrange that.

 

I could easily switch to the Catholic view of suppression, if you are more comfortable with that.

ralis

I don't understand where your accusation of emotional involvement comes from. The fact that I will speak out against ignorance and lies doesn't make me emotionally invested at all.

If you do not think that those known to have great knowledge and share it, should be granted respect as a teacher, then I pity those that you ever decide to learn something from. And they aren't thrones. Stop the blatant lies for once.

Yes, I read Campbell many years ago. He is much more learned in the Greek and Roman mythologies than anything else.

I used the term bullshit, because I just stripped off the veneer you tried to put on your insult.

Feel free to have your friend join and speak to us. I'm betting there are many who would love to hear his experiences.

I don't care which view you might want to switch too. If you lie about it, I'll confront you on that one as well.

I agree with ralis 100%.

 

Stigweard is using one cop out after another and dodging the issues. Yea, we are all humans, group hugs, group hugs... Smile! Think positive. Ok, time for more group hugs! Love, love, love... Don't be a hater, group hugs. Smile!

 

Alas, peace will never come from this head in the sand attitude. Fact is we do make judgments and to pretend otherwise is dangerous and unproductive. We consider murder to be wrong. Killing someone for breaking "a religious law" that we consider to be ridiculous in our culture is murder to us. There is no need to whitewash it with "we are all humans". Yes we are, so what?

 

As long as people follow doctrines thinking the truth is in the doctrine, rather than in the heart, the following will happen. If the truth is in the doctrine, then it's logical to follow the doctrine more closely. It's then logical that the closer you follow the doctrine the closer you are to truth. Then it's completely logical to become obsessed with following the doctrine in every minute detail and to get very very serious about it. Once the person takes this attitude, they become a fanatic who interprets everything literally, and the thing is...that person is being LOGICAL and REASONABLE...if the assumption that the truth is in the doctrine is correct.

 

Except the truth is never in the doctrine. The doctrines are a mix of utter bullshit with some helpful pointers. This is necessarily so, but to explain why is beyond this post. Investigate the Buddhist concept of "emptiness" to see why. In other words, from the point of view of looking for something that's completely true without any possibility of deceit, the doctrines are...wait for it...wait for it... WRONG. Yes, they are wrong. Not the person is wrong, not the hands, not the feet, not the liver, not the heart is wrong, but the doctrine really IS wrong. If you lower your expectation toward the doctrine, and if you think "I don't want anything more than a few good hints" then maybe the doctrine is not wrong. But is this how people approach doctrines in practice the world over? No. Not at all. Not yet. Not today.

 

It takes great courage to stop suckling on a doctrine's tit as the source of all truth.

 

Consider this: if nobody is willing to point out flaws, inconsistencies, and unnecessary savagery of many doctrines, why would anyone want to stop following them as closely as possible, and as literally as possible, if the person's current belief is that the doctrine is the absolute and total truth? Why? Of course they wouldn't! Ah, but if you point the finger and say "you are wrong" you are a bad guy, right?

 

Do you really want to work toward a society where it's unacceptable to say that someone or something is wrong? Is that similar to tolerance at all?

 

It's one thing to love all people, but it's another thing to give aid and succor to harmful doctrines.

And all of this opinion, from your perspective. Because well, it all gets very confusing. You spit out your personal doctrine here, but if we apply your doctrine to what you teach us, then we just end up in an infinite paradoxical loop.

You speak as though logic is the be all end all.Do you believe logic trumps all?

As for Lamas treating students like heathens, let me say this. I have never believed for one minute that they have special insight into anyone's soul as you state. As you stated "testing my passion for the teaching". The teachings they give are nothing more than outer teachings that lead nowhere. I found that along time ago. I was always offended by the prostrations required to receive teachings.

You prove here for all to see what the problem is. YOU had a bad experience, and have chosen to hold a grudge against that entire religious system for it. You call the teachings superstition and bullshit; and then you proceed to call yourself offended in offering due respect to a teacher. So sad.

Oh, and if you want to reference scholars for things, you should at least try those that actually are from that culture or one close to it. Campbell was far from well schooled on the east, and your buddy Lopez, obviously has issue since he loves to refer to the Theosophical society nuts so often in conjunction with Tibetan Buddhism.

Oh, and for the record; a bodhisattva is NOT a "god". At least learn a bit about something before you try to tell lies about it.

Problem? You take what I said out of context. I was merely stating a fact about how the ordinary citizen of Tibet was treated. Read for yourself! There are a lot of Tibetan wannabes and even some scholars that never question this fact. I live in a town full of them. This has nothing to do with any experience of spiritually. Anyone who has some degree of spiritual awakening is going to question the behavior that I have pointed out.

 

As for being a peer, what I meant was being treated with respect. Tibetan Lamas treat students like heathens. While at the same time they want us to feel sorry for them for what happened to their country. (Tibet was always a part of China and never independent). They ask for money to keep the same monastic culture intact. At the same time, feeding spiritual crumbs to their followers, while promising enlightenment in 7 lifetimes.

 

Do you know of any Lama that works at a real job? No, they just meditate and go on retreat. The only exception that I am aware of is Namkai Norbu.

The culture of Tibet was even worse than the European "Dark Ages". In Europe there were three classes until the enlightenment. Aristocratic, priesthood and serfs. Tibet was monastic i.e, Lamaism and serfs. I don't know why this is so difficult for most to understand.

 

The Dalai Lama admitted all of this publicly and has refused to continue his lineage!

 

One good reference is Donald Lopez. His book "Prisoners of Shamabalah" is a good place to start.

 

If you are going to debate me, I suggest not taking me out of context. To state that I read in lieu of some kind of spiritual experience is proceeding from an incorrect conclusion.

 

My point is that religion corrupts the human spirit and impedes real progress to provide for human everyday needs. Religion thrives on the quest for power, while keeping followers in a state of fear and superstition.

 

I would like to share a recent conversation I had with a friend of mine. I asked him why Ganten Tulku was putting so much money into the restoration of some special monastery in Bhutan, while at the same time people in the region needed medical care and had other immediate needs. He said that monasteries are where the Dharma is dispensed and the needs of people are irrelevant. Seems to me that monasteries are where people go to worship Dharma kings as opposed to understanding what life is really about. Was the church hierarchy in Europe with their massive cathedrals any different?

 

 

 

ralis

Im gonna leave alone your baltant mischaracterizations of so many things in Tiebt, because were talking about spirituality, not government. Most monks, gurus, masters, etc; they don't work "real" jobs. In ANY religion. Their job is to pass on the knowledge they have to help others further down their path.

The Dalai Lama never refused to continue his lineage. He has stated that he feels his office has outlived its purpose, and should not continue on after his death. And you wanted to talk about things out of context.

So much of what you say is completely subjective, depending on what one would consider actual needs. Bandying about your bullshit terms and irrelevant stories in no way changes anything. There are people that believe in something. YOU will never understand why they do, how they do, and what it does for them, because you have closed your mind to anything good coming from religion. The point is, since this thread is on interfaith harmony, what do you bring to the table when all you do is spew hate of all religions?

It is a fact. I always question and read, instead of being some true believer. Many scholars have written on this subject. Donald Lopez for one.

 

Just go to a Tibetan Lama and ask for a transmission and see how you are treated. Will you be treated like a peer or someone who is lower? You will be treated like the latter.

 

ralis

As would be right. If you haven't put in the time and learning to receive that transmission, you shouldn't get it. And you're not a peer. Your example is analogous to my walking into Harvard and asking for a degree.

"I always question and read, instead of being some true believer." That is your problem right there. Anything spiritual is to be experienced, not just read about. No matter how much you read, if you don't act on that in a sincere and true manner, you'll get nothing.

A belief that they can make ones life better.

Two things happen like clockwork at the Tao Bums. A Chinese dude will appear every few months trying to get converts to his version of nutty Taoism and every few months a thread will be started under the false pretense of asking a serious question about Christianity but in reality its just a front to insult and disparage it.

 

Dont believe me? Just wait.....

You left off the 3rd part. That the thread about Christianity will be full of people who profess to be Christian, bu only the parts they like and throw the rest out. We can all use those steadfast examples of "faith" and "belief".

Heh, that place looks familiar

OK, for the love of Pete, somebody ask David:WHY DID YOU GET FIRED FROM YOUR HOSPITAL JOB?

 

How is it that both the FBI AND The U.S. Secret Service know ALL about you, your name, address, telephone number, and everything that you are doing on the internet (i.e., HACKING)????

 

How is is this possible?

 

He's had A KEKLOGGER on EVERY computer that I've ever had except the Mac which just had a new motherboard put on it, therefore removing his keylogger, which was embedded in the BIOS.

 

And DAVID KNOWS EVERYTHING THAT I AM SAYING IS TRUE.

 

To listen to David and Kestrel they "are pure as new fallen snow." COME ON..............Please.

 

g.

Dude. Please. Just stop.

It is none of our business to ask him why he was fired from a job. At all. Some people make mistakes or do stupid things.

Now, as to the rest of your post. Just stop trying to lie and pull the wool over peoples eyes here. As of now, it is technologically impossible for your accusation to be true. So really, the only one causing harm in this thread, is you.

Not to rain on your parade, but you claim its "real" bagua, and then say its very little form, mostly application. Now, from what I have learned over the years, form is where most martial arts get their power from. This is kind of like getting a great remote control car for your birthday, and taking the batteries out to play.

In daily life, we never pay attention to our breathing , and we breathe well. Now, in order to initiating qi / settling our mind ,we are told to pay attention to our breathing to an extent that it becomes such an important issue that neither our mind is settled , nor natural breathing got , not to speak of initiating qi ...

 

Both initiating qi and settling your mind is like chasing after your girlfriend: never can you get her if you are too eager ...

This is very much not true. daily, mots people breathe like crap. We breath inefficiently and shallowly with our lungs. The reason in the beginning you are taught to pay attention to your breath is to breathe from your diaphragm, which leads to better breathing and more calm. After you breathe well naturally, you move on to other things. It is but the first step on a long road.

I've sat back and patiently held my tongue regarding this whole thing for a long time. My apologies Stig, for not PM'ing you a long time ago and letting you know I would not be sending the $10 I originally decided to. I had gone back and started reading many of gossamers posts again to see if I could get a grasp on the situation at hand. And frankly, it made me feel sick. Because as much of a geek as I am, I should have noticed quite a few things a long time ago. While I won't go so far to say that most of the computer issue you talk about are impossible to cause in the way you say they are, I will say that the probabilities are high in the billions. you obviously have little grasp for many things when it comes to computers, because the things you are saying this man has done, not even the most malicious hackers that spend all their time writing code have managed. While in your head there may very well be something going on, I think that perpetuating the lie to this community is despicable.

Condolences, how old was he?

 

Not sure why he had kidney problems, and everyone dies eventually, but I think it may illustrate how being in good spiritual health may not automatically keep you in good physical health. They may be related with some crossover, but I think physical health is something you still have to work on separately as well... Being very spiritual and mental is not necessarily going to optimize you healthwise and physically.

 

This is why Bill Bodri talks a lot about detoxing and and other health practices as a separate but integral part of the ascension path. But lacking these tools, it sounds like Sheng-yen instead relied upon an "odd" combination of spiritual prayer vigils and Western allopathic medicine. Neither of which probably really hit the bull's eye though - as more holistic healing might have.

What? Are you serious? A thread about the passing of one of the great Chan masters of the past few generations, and you talk about some quack trying to hawk bullshit and linking to a "karma calculator"? Has all common senes been thrown out the window here nowadays?

http://www.westernchanfellowship.org/news-...2809d8504e.html

Amituofo

_/|\_

Great article. But don't be surprised by the number of responses you get justifying killing another animal for "needed" food.

I'm still down to meet up, but I won't go to a bar. So if people want to go and have drinks, I'll just skip this one.

I, for one, find this all rather disturbing. All the pontificating and chest thumping that goes on around here about people being open-minded and such is proven by threads like these to be bullshit. If he was making massive amounts of posts about a topic that people didn't disagree with so much, like kunlun or qigong, nothing would be being said. Instead, in numerous threads on this forum, people have repeatedly insulted the man and his beliefs; and in many cases been cheered on by long time members. This site very much bills itself as a barely contained free for all. I know that at certain points, I took advantage of that myself, and was overly rude in some posts I made. What I have seen though, is that the more I try to not be like that in my speech, the more I have noticed the venom and animosity in others posts.

You know, most of the people in this thread are pathetic. You are coming here to this forum to try and learn and better yourself, and now act like bratty children. The only rudeness around here, is these people suddenly popping out of the woodwork bitching about MTS's posts. If you're that damn lazy you cant click the buttons to see older threads, what are you doing here? In the past month or so, the true colors of most of the people on this forum have come out. You're not here to better yourself, but only to escape the demons of your own past. You only like the topic as long as it doesn't look to much like the religion you hate.

Arch >> Mint

Ive been using linux for years. Gotta love it. A true 3d desktop too

I can throw in $10 around the middle of next month. Xmas and the kids has me broke until then.

We'll have to make sure we don't go the weekend of the New Year. that would reallly be hectic.