cloud recluse

Thats pretty much it so far.Nothing up the butt as of yet.

Ummm,I dont want to sound morbid,but what kind of nightmares ?

My ignorance comes to the fore More details please

"Hi everybody,my names Cloud & Im a chocolate addict.." "HI CLOUD..!!' etc

I admit,that would be preferable Still,If you wanted,I could pick it apart topic by topic,& present the references independent of the Trimondis.Sort of a "Vajrayana debate" thread or something? Regards,Cloud.

Now THATS special

To rewind the thread a little,I find the really interesting question to be whether or not there really was any definable group of people that could have been called 'The Gnostics' ? I get the impression that neither the "Christians ' nor the 'Gnostics' represented the original Jesus,both are equally heretical in that sense.But whereas its comparatively easy to define the post-Pauline Christians,exactly what does or doesnt constitute a 'Gnostic' seems to be a bit more elusive. So,what do people here think of when they hear the term 'Gnostic',what does it connotate nowadays ?

Let me assure you of one thing,as this is obviuosly in reference to the SHADOW document on the Signs of Buddha Thread. Even if Trimondis accusation as to the agenda of the Vajrayana turned out to be 100% corect total truth (& I am not actually claiming that myself),this stilll doesnt indicate anything about the spiritual MOTIVATION of the DL. And this,I think ,is important in evaluating any one individual guru (or anyone else). The DL,in this hypothesis,could be approaching the world from a VAST depth of love & compassion.But his instrument for that compassion would be the Kalachakra myth,its his understanding of the world & how to express compassion in it in practical action. How many people,inspired by a true & valid love,have carried out terribly counterproductive mistakes,tragedies even,constrained & misdirected by the limiations of their conceptual worldviews. Loving parents who torture children with"therapies" to "cure" them of homosexuality,Inquisitors genuinely trying to "save' heretics from some imaginary damnation. If the Trimondi's are actually right,is it not possible that DL radiates a GENUINE raw love,but then trys to express it through a woefully reactionary myth ? Or perhaps their entire claim will collapse upon inspection.Or something in the middle. This is a consideration with any guru I think. Regards,Cloud

TheWayFeelsGreat,sounds like you are definetely a force to be reckoned with ! I look forward to hearing your perspectives in the Discussions Regards,Cloud.

Damn right ! And dont apologize for the lengths of your post by the way,its full of gems.You sound like a very seasoned 'seeker' (If you dont mind the term).Keep em coming Regards,Cloud.

Yes,definetly,a question of subtle distinctions. But having said that,the material in the orthodox gospels still revolves around a particular historical scenario that is required to be accepted AS FACT to make the material 'work"-ie:the literal death & resurrection of Christ as universal Saviour.The Gnostic material,while having some pretty funky cosmologies in there too,is perhaps less bound by that? Anytime,Im usually up for it Exactly! Now the question is "Why"?

Yes! THATS the spririt! Thats what I wanna hear! someone actually willing to look through Galileos telescope If it turns out to be crap,I wanna know.If its valid,I wanna know.Or anywhere in between.So,to anyone reading this: Like I said above SHADOW pretty much collectes every criticism around.Some of these I had allready encountered from other sources.Sexual abuse & murder among the Rinpoche's,the Dalai Lamas refusal of democracy,extreme homophobia,the violent nature of Tibetan society,the glorification of rape in the Padmasambhava & Drukpa Kunley myths,the violent persecution & murder of the Bonpo by the Vajrayana,A LOT OF this I had allready encountered from seperate sources.BUT IS IT ACCURATE??? The reason SHADOW is a good starting place is it not only contains all these sources,but it also goes into more detail about about the violently misogyninstic themes of Tibetan Tantra. I mean,June Campbell,& now others,have allready exposed the sexually abusive practices of the so-called celibate Rinpoches,& Campbell herself makes some interesting suggestions about the origins of that ( though its not so suprising when the Vajrayana mythical founder is extolled as a rapist). But SHADOWS details the theme of sacrificing the female in the actual yogic practices themselves,in detail.Then theres the question of the Shambhalah myth,with its Apocalypse politics ( I find that idea PARTICULARLY intruiging,as one of my pet theories is that apocalyptic concepts are attempts by the ego to solidify a final fixed condition,essentially a refusal of mystery,thus appropriating the spiritual process back into an egoic goal).IF this is correct,its not just the bad habits of a medieval patriarchy,ITS FUNDAMENTAL TO THE SYSTEM ITSELF!! This is the value of the document.Yes it does take some reading,& I have NO problem if someone simply doesnt have the time.But if one does,& the Vajrayana is of interest to you,it seems logical to me to carry out this kind of research Now if Ive offended anybody AT ANY POINT in discussing this I am genuinely sorry.But I dont believe in sacred cows,& repeated consistent claims,claims made INDEPENDENTLY of the "Trimondis",are claims worth investigating,even if its only to refute them! So Im all up for a FAIR discussion on the more dubious aspects of Buddhism,BIT IM NOT SIMPLISTICALLY ANTI-BUDDHIST ! But all 'gurus' & spiritual authority structures MUST be tested,tested,tested!! Their capacity for abuse,for damaging us on a level of deep vulnerability MUST be borne in mind,& so I demand that the preachers on Enlightement show a level of integrity above & beyond the average. Hmmm,Im getting worked up here & this is getting overly lengthy.Sorry Regards,Cloud

Ah,well,I admit you got me there Pero

No,posting a link may actually get some intelligent debate going.If,for whatever reason,the Vajrayana is of interest to someone,I assume (perhaps foolishly) that they would want all sides of the story. I thought this document would be a good start as it contains the Sources for all this. If you read the thing,or even just the bibliography,there is no lack of "Source" here whatsoever. However,if by going to the source you mean onlly listening to the Tibetan theocracies side of things,then your probably not that interested in the topic. This is my point.Regardless of the Trimondis motive,there is alot of 'source' here. Now,if you can show specific misrepresentations & inaccuracies ,then I am definetly interested Regards,Cloud Rex,I couldnt agree more

The point here is that the DL constantly promotes himself as an advocate of democracy,equality & political integrity.If hes really pushing a medieval theocratic agenda instead,it doesnt look too good. And no,I dont think theyre against magic,just against an oppresive medieval system driven by dodgy oracles & extemerly misogynistic interptetations of yoga.And Im perfectly happy for that valuing of liberty to be advocated.

How the fuck do I make the link function work properly.it worked before,but I cant seem to do it this time!!Help.

I dunno man,my bodies not as efficient as it used to be Have to admit though,Ive never actually tried a deliberate fast of any sort.

True enough Pero,I think,in the context of Christianity,Im particularly concerned with the fundamentalist variety.PARTICULARLY the nutbags that look for political applications for the book of Revelation.Their applying of this to the current Middle East crisis scares the fuck out of me. This is where history is particularly useful,in that SOME people (though certainly not all) might actually pause a bit when they find out their scripture is not the divinely xeroxed document they think it is,but rather a very human & flawed compilation. Regards,Cloud

Ummm,not really.Im actually perfectly happy to let the chocolate go.I just went kind of nuts on it for a while & made my system a bit toxic Now its true that I a DO want a cleanout,coz I got the impression thta would be a good move now AS WELL as a better diet. So,in addition to fresh water,fruit & vegies,what would PARTICULARLY help shift the sludge? (Havent had time to look at all the posts here yet,but I just wanted to make clear what Im looking for) Regards,Cloud

Rex,Pero & Mandrake. Have you guys actually read the thing ? Not an encouraging proposition I agree.Its not a small peice of work. Im all up for a good gouging on this thing if its facts are incorrect,by all means get stuck into it.But so far only Mandrake has made a relevant comment about the name of Buddhas mum (I have yet to go back & check that one myself.Mandrake,could you possibly give me the page number on that one.Thanx). For me,the Vajrayana is not a sacred cow immune from criticism & neither is the Dalai Lamas theocracy.But if the criticisms here are inaccurate,I would very much like that pointed out to me. But just saying "Anyone who makes these claims is probably a Christian/Nazi"..etc is not an actual argument! Where are the inaccuracies in their depiction of the Vajrayana? Please be specific. I mean,its not just a question of the invitable corruption of ANY theocracy,or of the "old -fashioned" homophobic & sexist statements of the DL.The contention here is that the Vajrayana system itself is more than questionable. Anyhow, Rex,,I found a site with some interesting links.The top part of the page is in French,but the bit that looks promising is in English.Bit I havent really had time to hunt down much else.I dont know whose site this is,Im just putting it here for the convenience of its links. To any body interested,Im looking for critiques that are a bit more than "Dont be ridicoulous,the vajrayana is obviously great & dissenters are obviously wicked"

You have all these things happening in your life? YOU LUCKY BA#$@%D!!!! I hope you post some of your opinions soon so I can attack them to make up for my immense feelings of inferiority Yours in pathetic,bitter jealousy,Cloud

Hmmmm.I must admit,I do have a weakness for Port.Would that do the trick?

Heres an intersting little nugget fom Grigg's THE TAO OF ZEN that I just want to throw out there: "Zen moves to the soft receptivity of emptiness and nothingness more methodically and deliberately than Taoism.Because the contemplative tradition of Taoism exists outside the institutional structure of Buddhism,is has proceeded organically by relating the wisdom in its literature to the dynamics of the world,and then noting what happens.Insight in Taoism gradually surfaces through a process of elimination,by discovering what is not the Way.This process continues until a "feeling" begins to coalesce.This feeling falls entirely outside the bounds of explanation or rules.It is analogous to the artists sense of beauty,the scientists sense of natural symmetry,the athletes sense of impeccable timing;these are comparable to both the Taoist and Zen experience.But the Zen approach,because of Buddhism,has been more structured than Taoisms organic process." pp217-218. Any comments on that one? I think its really neat Regards,Cloud

Rex,you will have to be patient with me here,coz Im going to be a bit vague on the details. Personally,Ive had quite a few discussions with acquaintances over the years about thhe political position of the DL,& its relationship to his status as a religious figurehead.I think there were some news items around Christmas/New Year querying whether or not he would allow a real democracy,whether he would ever permit a Tibetan seperation of Church & State.And then theres the exposes mentioned in SHADOW of the sexual exploitation in the Vajrayana theocracy. Ive been hearing these things as sperate topics for a while,but SHADOW puts them all in the context of the Vajrayana system,depicting them not so much as typical human failings,but as the logical outcome of the Vajrayana theocracy!Its religious vision requires all these behaviours of its practitioners! Unfortunately,I havent seen a single forum that unites these topics yet,though I think thats whats being proposed in the 'Annex" of the SHADOW document I linked in my last post (I should actually go back & reread the thing I suppose ).But then I havent really been looking lately(Its busy being A Cloud Recluse ) So its lots of snippets here & there,but they seem to be accumulating,& I imagine more people will start making more connections,Thus,I think things are heating up. Thats why I like SHADOW,it has a whole pile of "connected snippets" right there.So its a great place to start.History,Politics,Yogic symbolism,the lot! Does any body actually know of any forums addressing all this,Has anyone else read SHADOW before,or heard it critiqued perhaps? Regards,Cloud.

Pero,I just seem to be on a self-apointed crusade I just want to clarify the destructive egoic stratgies that masquerade as spirituality,be they Eastern or Western (or Antarctic or whatever).I think we in our culture have a remarkable & important opportunity to sort the gold from the dross.& historical research is an important part of that. I particularly have my eye on the Christ myth,as that creeps back in ("Resurrecting" itself you might say ) in so many ways. But Ill happily take an axe to any gurus head,while at the same time staying sufficiently low-profile enough to avoid that same critical attention being directed at me Regards,Cloud.