cloud recluse

We just doing a VERY basic beginners class.Some 8 Brocade style Chi Gongs,stretching & the start of the Yang form.I think its a long way yet to Push Hands,& I think the other students ,in this very small class ,are mainly doing it for "health".But Mark is always referring to potential combat application & strong form as well as relaxed form. Tell you what,if your an expericed practitioner yourself,it would be cool to pick your brain sometime,if you were so inclined..But I must confess Im an absolute beginner in this stuff myself Up till now Ive only really been experienced in the Contemplative or 'Mystical" ( for want of a better word) side of Daoism.Im only just starting to explore the Movement Arts,especially as I start to age physically Regards,Cloud

Bronzebow, I dont know if this will be of any use to you or not,as I am too new at such things to assess them.But Ive been taking Yang Tai Ji lessons from Mark Mayers,an instructor in the Western Suburbs ( he teaches at the Yarraville Buddhist College saturday afternoons,& I think out in Mornington on Thursday nights).Now I havent been getting Bagua instruction from him,though Im sure he is a practitioner. But I have found the Tai Ji -Chi Gong lessons informative ,& the Tai Ji form challenging. He seems to be fairly conscious of the power dynamics of Tai Ji ( as far as I can tell anyhow,which may not be saying much),so I imagine his approach to tthe other arts would have the same depth. His number is 1300 725 934 & hes a very pleasant & obliging sort ( as long as you dont ring at an unreasonable hour ). Im sure he wouldnt mind answering any inquiries about Bagua,I just dont know if he actually teaches the stuff. Hope thats of some use. Regards,Cloud

Just found a link with FREE STUFF I luv free stuff Its from an Australian expat Erle Montaigue. Ive never met him & have heard mixed reports of him.I myself being a mere beginner at this Taiji business am in no position to evaluate this material,but the Yang form is what Im attempting to learn,so any thing in that line grabs my attention. So,all you taiji adepti,check this stuff out. Any good ?Im all ears. taiji-qigong co uk Regards,Cloud

Actually,I just noticed today a copy of the latest FORTEAN TIMES at the newsagency which seems to have new info on the whole purpose of the Priory of Sion hoax.It details,apparently, another nongnostic,neo-fascist agenda behind the whole thing! Regrettably,I cant afford to buy it

Hers a little something.A link (if I can make it work) to a June Campbell interview I just found anandainfo Actually,Ive just started playing with Lama Surya Das' book & cd set "NATURAL RADIANCE:AWAKENING TO YOUR GREAT PERFECTION" Although his delivery in the giuded meditations is not what Im used to,I am actually finding it quite useful.Its basically an intro to Dzogchen meditation. Now ,in Dzogchen terms,Im sure it wouldnt be seen as a substitute for Lineage Empowerment,but it does seem to give you a good 'taste'. Regards,Cloud

No,Sean,its NOT pretentious ,its perfectly reasonable And Yes,I am definetly into him. Of all the 'nondual' gurus around,hes the only one so-far whose word I accept without reservation.The others give me pause,but in both his writing,& in what little I get to see of him from the video clips on his site,and the Spontaneous Awakening cd set,the guy really seems effortlessly genuine. Its not just that hes clarified a few ideas in my head for me ( though he has certainly done that in a rather crucial way for me ) ,but his whole demeanour strikes me.I mean,I cant REALLY tell,Ive never met him,all my impressions are necesarily 'second-hand',but I get this compelling vibe of an effortless composure alongside a real,unrestricted humanity. And the thing is,Im not really much of a 'guru freak'! If anything,Im far TOO critical of gurus & VERY high in my expecations of them.Theres no 'eager belief' about me in that respect.But as soon as I encountered the guy,Ive been quite taken with him. Of course,the downside there is that he doesnt seem to tour much downunder Youve described him as one of your primary teachers.Well,im starting to feel more than a little inclined that way myself. Regards,Cloud

Sean,wernt you attending some kind of Adya gig a little while back ? What was your experience of him ?

Another DownunderDaoist Where are you located man ?

Sean,at the risk of sounding lazy,would you be able to direct me to whichever part of the AYP site elaborates on this distinction ? Regards,Cloud

Um,thats all I was actually saying.So ,my understanding,we DO agree here.The impact of various forms of Islam IS of more consequence overall,but in "OUR" circles,the Tibetans are still a major player in terms of influence. So,we agree,yeah? The whole Vajrayana thingy is perhaps only of concern to the yogically inclined in the course of their own spiritual practice,whereas the Islamic question is of political relevance to any world citizen.I think thats your point,& I agree totally Of course,the Trimondis argue that Tibetan politics is driven by a Shambhallah apocalypse in which the Moslems,the "Mlecchas",are to be singled out for some special treatment .Now whether that is accurate remains to be seen,I havent had a chance to check out the Kalachakra site that Mandrake posted.And even if it is true,that doesnt necessarily mean it will translate into any significant political action. Bit I think we are still on our 'roll' here Regards,Cloud

Yeah,youve certainly got a pretty valid point there But wouldnt it be fair to say that ,in yogic circles,Tibetan Buddhism is enormously popular & widespread,a very contemporary movement,& thus one worth getting all sides of the story on. I fully admit that it perhaps is not a particularly 'threatening' one to worry about in the larger scheme of things, but on the 'Spiritual Scene',isnt it still a fairly major player? Or not? Regards,Cloud

Now isnt Black the favoured colour of a lot of zen practitioners ? And they could hardly be accused of skimping on serious meditation commitments. Isnt white the colour asociated with death & funerals in some South-East Asian countries ? I kinda have a reverse bias here.Im deeply suspicious of anyone whose compelled to wear white all the time Regards,a stormy BLACK Cloud

Thanks man. I was perhaps overeacting a bit to think that the "haters' bit was referring to me.sorry about that.I feel a bit silly now. Regards,Cloud

Let me clear up a misundertsanding Im not "determined" to prove it one thing or another! An interesting & quite feasible charged was raised against a patriarchial monastic theocracy,quite an intruiging charge. So Id thought I would throw it out there,see if it was a well known/infamous one or not,& see what people knew about it.As I said in some of my first references to SHADOW,"Has anybody seen a critique of this" or words to that effect. To this end ,I am interested in reading actual refutations,disconfirming facts,from those in the know,if such material exists. BUT,simply dismissing the arguments in question instead of counterarguing them is of no use to anyone except the True Believers. If your not interested in explaing WHY the charge is invalid,Fine.Im not expecting anyone to be so.Its simply my own interest,so I have no problem with that. I AM NOT IGNORING anyones experience,but if you cite these things,then dont provide details,I would wonder why bothered entering the debate. As I said in one of my firsts posts here,I AM interested in the other side of the story.That was the whole point.BUT .."Its wrong coz I say so & so does everyone else", thats not really a valid point Point me in the direction that actually engages & refutes Campbell & I will be more than happy,I will be quite delighted in fact ( or any of the other critics that the Trimondis cite for that matter).But DONT treat Tibetan Buddhism,or anything else for that matter,as a sacred cow.Thats useless. My only bias here,as I said in a previous post,is that I do admittedly have a wariness of ANY Big Male Churches & the patterns they are inclined to.But I am perfectly aware that that in itself doesnt constitute an argument. Now,if I have upset anyone with any of this ,I do apologize,& Im not attacking "The Tibetans" nor advocating that anyone do so.But by the same token,someone who says to me" I know why these claims are wrong,but I couldnt be bothered mustering the evidence" is just a Great Big Tease Im sorry,but I dont believe that any belief system is beyond question,nor do I believe it is disrespectful to do so.Test them all,Always. I DONT KNOW if the SHADOW accusations are true or not,but the basic idea is not particularly unfeasible,so id like to investigate it. Regards,Cloud.

Okey dokey.Time for some more guru expose'. To start the ball rolling,the self-proclaimed Baghwan,in my opinion,was a masterful manipulator,a remarkable (if somwhat inaccurate) orator,a bit of a sorcerer ,and an impotent drug feind obsesed with power,status & money,perfectly happy to sacrifice the wellbeing of his students to his desire for self-glorification. For a man who made a career out of attacking & insulting Indias traditional religious institutions as obnoxiously as possible,he ended up being one of the more exceptionally corrupt professional religionists around.The type of guy who talks a good fight,but is happy to let his disposeable disciples take all the flack. Whos up a chat Regards,Cloud. PS.I forgot to mention,some excellent reading on this is THE GOLDEN GURU by James.S.Gordon & BAGHWAN:THE GOD THAT FAILED by Hugh Milne.These 2 books,PARTICULARLY Gordons,point out that B "had something",but it was outweighed by his hypocrisy & deception. Another 2 books about the Guru syndrome in general are FEET OF CLAY by Anthony Storr and DESTROYING THE WORLD IN ORDER TO SAVE IT by Robert Jay Lifton.Storr looks ata few gurus in his workin trying to elucidate the guru posture as a defence against inner fear,B among them.Liftons concentrates on Shoko Asahara of the Tokyo subway gas attack fame,but really goes into detail on the function of guru as substitute ego in the discilpes psyche,as well as the gurus dependence on the disciple.Its interesting how Asahara started to break down in custody after being seperated from his folloewrs.

Its not a case of what the books say,bit of what actually happens,particularly if its a case on an institutionally supported practice required by the religion. If you are going to refute Campbell,please do so with actual examples.Thats what Im looking for here,actual information.I would strongly recommend her work,as its not simply her own experience,but her observations on how the institutions ACTUALLY work,not just what the official rulebooks say.Regardless of whether or not she was foolish,my conceren is whether or not the practice is prevalent & sactioned.

It would be really trippy & intense if it turns out to be a false thesis!! I mean,its one I practically grew up on !! I think nearly everything Ive read on Zen,as well as every discussion I can recall with others on the topic,pretty much took this as a given fact !! Am I right,is the Dao-Zen connection pretty much taken for granted? If so,to refute it would be fascinating. Regards,Cloud.

The only thing I would say is dont be dazzled.This gig may turn out well worth your time & money,but dont abandon your skepticism.Perhaps take a glance at Chapter 16 in Part of SHADOW ,entitled 'Tactics,Strategies,Forgeries,Illusions".It has a short section on the Vajrayana-Western Science dialogoue that might be worth considering. The info at this program could well be instructive,just bear in mind the self-promotion of the Tibetan Theocracy,and the eagerness of many Westerners to lap it up Regards,Cloud.

If your wary of the Trimondis,or just dont have the time,check out June Campbells TRAVELLER IN SPACE (though it may have been reissued under a new title,Im not sure). Basically,the female Tantric consort,while glorofied in the seduction phase by the Rinpoche,is pretty much dumped afterwards,with curse backed threats about what will happen if she reveals that the 'celibate' Rinpoches actually seduces & fucks his female students. This behaviour is justified by the image of women in the 3 vehicles.In Hinayana,shes simply a dirty temptress that pollutes the male mind,dragging it away from the path of desirelessness.In the Mahayana,shes still a dirty creature,but can recover from her regrettable femininity if she renounces her fallen condition 7 becomes 'energetically male' in her subtle body.In the Vajrayana,she is the FeminineWorld-energy,reminiscent of the Hindu Shakti,BUT with a crucial difference.This is seen as a regettable state of affairs that must be rectified.If the Rinpoche is clever & cunning,he can catch this power with charm & seduction.woo her with praise,teach her submission,drain her of that vital energy & convert it into Male Buddha energy,then abandon the 'vessel'. So,temptress in the Hinayana,regrettable mistake in the Mahayana,& disposeable power source in the Vajrayana.Bit then,what would you expect from celibate male monks trying to retain political power. Campbelss ananlysis goes fairly deep on this,looking at the gender roles in the iconography,the actual practices & the institutionalised lying that surrounds them,all the things typical of a Big Male Church. And the Tibetan theocracy is nothing if not a Big Male Church But she also looks at the image of women that your typical monk would have as aresult of their lifestyle.Traumatically seperated from their mothers at a VERY young age,women are allready ambivalent figures to them.Then taught that women are an evil sexual distraction,while being raised by men in a hyper-partiarchial environment.Finally,initiated into Vajrayana,it becomes OK to fuck women,as long as you dont become attached to them,because now they are a necessary power source to complete ones own transformation into a representative of the monastic elite. But dont tell the peasants,they think we are desireless ,& we live off their labour. If I can draw inspiration from StFrancis of Assissi & The Cloud Of Unknowing,& can draw it from Tibetan Buddhism. But a big part of that is a Partiarchail Theocracy of celibate men,& that has NEVER been a pallatible proposition for those under its thumb.

Even if the Vajrayana establishment IS driven by a particular theocratic agenda ,it doesnt necessarily follow that its all a brainwashing cult,or that any degree of involvement is automatically dangerous.Certainly,there are problematic aspects to it to say the least,but thats not surprising. I mean ,what do you expect.Its a THEOCRACY,a feudal political institutuion designed to hold onto political power,ITS A FUCKING GOVERMENT!!! That it should become a little twisted was never going to be surprising. So its not a case of fearing the thing,but one simply bears in mind its political agendas when investigating it.Im not saying theres no value in the vast expanse of practices that one could stick under the label 'Tibetan Buddhism',Ive certainly derived value & inspiration from it myself. BUT ,when ostensibly celibate men set up an authoritarian heirarchy giving them enforced political power over others,things get problematic.I mean,doesnt anyone here wonder about that.They basically became the medieval Catholic Church!!

Wayfarer,I concur utterly It wasnt actually the Trimondis that started me looking askance at the Vajrayana institution,rather it was June Campbell in TRAVELLER IN SPACE,which dealt specifically with misogynistic practice,& didnt touch on the Trimondis broader claims of a militant Shambhallah vision allegedly driving the Kalachakra. But one thing I will say,which returns to the topic of this thread here,is that whatever their failings,I dont get the same malicious side that I perceive in Rajneesh.However mixed the motives may or may not be,the Dalai Lama is definetely out there proposing solutions to some degree at least.Rajneesh,in the final analysis,only seems to have proposed Rajneesh. Regards,Cloud

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The only problem here is that it is more than just a misunderstanding of a symbolic system .We are also talking about ACTUAL PRACTICE. Pertinent here is the 'celibate' Kalu Rinpoches ex-tantric consort June Campbell. Her analysis (something totally independent of the Trimondis) of the Vajrayana points out that the sexual exploitation is not just an accident,its implicit in the system. I will say again what Ive said above,I posted the trimondi link as a single source,I wasnt citing it in itself as a definitive authority.I actually encountered June Campbells material prior to the Trimondis.If you want something a bit shorter to read,try her TRAVELLER IN SPACE. what I found interesting in the Trimondis was that they placed her observations & experience in the context of a religious vision of the patriarchial subjugation of non-believers,a typical product of ANY theocracy east or west.Definetely a hypothesis worth investigating! Has anybody a refutation of Campbell specifically? I cant comment on the link Mandrake has provided yet as I havent time to read it,but it IS the kind of thing I was hoping for The case for misogyny built into the Vajrayana is allready strong,but-outside of the Trimondis-Ive not yet had time to look at the Shambhallah myth that the Trimondis allege is the motivating force behind the Kalachakra.So when I get the time,its my next port of call. So,are the misogynistic practices in turn patching into a broader vision?The Trimondis make compelling claims,backed up by a LOT of material.Does it stand up to scrutiny?

Ive been told by 2 different Chinese Medical Practitioners,by virtue of pulse diagnosis,that Ive been eating far too much sugar & I need to clean out my system a bit.So,what do you take to purge the gunge from overly frequent chocolate binges from your bloodstream.Any suggestions anyone?