cloud recluse

I think he was a bit of a twit myself.Seems to have really gone off the deep end towards the end.Definetely had refined the capacities of personal concentration to the nth degree,but couldnt release into any broader ground of transpersonal Being.Showed marked signs of paranoid delusions,claiming that the car accidents resulting from his insane,breakneck driving style were actually the result of an evil force out to get him coz he was so wonderful &'awake'.Definetely didnt mind lying & decieving people to get to their money,an exercise he bragged about as "shearing sheep".Got quite a few of his female discilples pregnant ,& described non-Guirdjieffian women as "mans handkercheif"!Not so much a "rascal" as a dodgy nutter. Anyhow,just thought Id put my 2 cents in Regards,Cloud.

Personally,I do think Ive bitten off more than I can chew at times,but I dont know that it was 'meant to be' as a learning experience Im now just very wary of any uncomfortable movements in body energy,but apart from becoming VERY cautious (perhaps to the point of error),I dont know if Ive really learnt anything there.Most of my spiritual crises have happened in relation to other people,with the spiritual value & delicacy of the interpersonal being hammered into me via repeated screwups "Waking Down",what/who is it? A decade or so ago I was quite interested in Frank (I prefer this to Adi-whatever),but then concluded hed gone off the rails in a major way.But Ive always been interested in anyone who stepped out of his shadow to see if theyve succesfully carried on from Franks initially promising beginnings.

Something to add here "...the use of psychedelic sacraments does not necessarily lead to the creation of a feminine-oriented partnership society with a penchant for bounday-dissolving orgies.Instead,it can lead to the attempt to match the volatile power and ambigious spectacles of the hallucinatory realms with bloody and horrible acts of appeasement.The psychedelic impulse can become dangerous and decadent."-BREAKING OPEN THE HEAD.Daniel Pinchbeck.p237.

"When we awaken ourselves energetically,we are responding to our impulses,desires,and urges.Just as the infants first knowledge of gravity awakens a process of excitement and discovery,we begin to experience our excitement in response to a desire or urge.The world touches us and moves us through an upset,a transition in relationship or profession,the weather ,a meaningful insight ,the meeting of a new person.If we do not respond to these urges but simply listen and watch them,we may become quiet and insightful but we do not evolve and expand.Response to desire is the cornerstone of growth.Desire in this sense refers to the deep and ancient impulses that move us toward the more of who we are ,not the hankerings after sweets and gratification. There is a time to quiet ourself so that we may look at and listen to who we are.There is also a time,and a need,to go with our desires and urges.This is the path of passion.It is the making of a seasoned and rich soup that we call our process,the all of who we are. Curiosity and interest are the key and ignition of our energy;together they have the capacity to turn us on.They do not create new energy but rather allow us to contact the ever-present life energy by turning our attention toward it.When we pay attention to ourselves,we can experience a warmth,a movement,a life that arouses us.Desire swells and forms into an intention,blood surges, the adrenal glands begin to expand and release ,our tissues vibrate with excitement ,and we begin to make contact with the world." -THE ANATOMY OF CHANGE,R.S.Heckler,p32. This is where Ardaghs Void is surpassed by Form Regards,Cloud.

Actually,Ive read (& still have somewhere) his earlier EGO & DYNAMIC GROUND,& one of the chapters in KW DIALOGUE is by Washburn,with a reply by Wilber,& I felt Wilbers reply to Washburn to be more than adequate(I think DIALOGUE came out in 1998,& I got my copy 2nd hand).BUT,I will give SPIRITUALITY IN A SACRED WORLD a go,ONCE youve checked out DIALOGUE.Hard bargain I know,but Im a hard & bitter man,full of anger(that & red squidgy bits that must serve some kind of purpose,as I feel faint when their disconnected ). Anyhoo,RELAXING INTO CLEAR SEEING is the first book by Ardagh that Ive read & reread.Initially I was quite taken with it,as the whole question of STARTING the path with a nondual taste,instead of assuming it to come at some linear "end" has particularly concerned me.Ardaghs inductions into Clear Seeing are valuable tools,perhaps like the Dzogchen 'Pointing Out instructions,and using apparent egoic disruptions of Clear Seeing to enter Clear Seeing is a really impressive contribution. BUT,the whole thing leaves me with a suspicion of disembodiment,a whiff of depersonalization,a subtle antagonism between embodied intiution & a disembodied "emptiness".Form ignored in favour of Emptiness.Ardagh does try to take that into account,bit I dont think he does so adequately,& one is left floating,with no solid guidance of reengaging the "grim,meathook realities" of bodily life. To that end,I look to writers like the Aikido practitioners Richard Strozzi Heckler (THE ANATOMY OF CHANGE, and HOLDING THE CENTER) &Wendy Palmer (THE INTUITIVE BODY:AIKIDO AS A CLAIRSENTIENT PRACTICE),for their advice on moving from,& more importantly,being MOVED BY,the Hara.This is the depths that Ardaghs heights seem to lack.He clears a wonderful space,but gets stuck in the Formless(in terms of the techniques hes proposing to his readers,Ive never met the man personally).Also,he makes the dodgy claim of there being an actual lineage from Ramana Maharishi! His next book THE TRANSLUCENT REVOLUTION I have only just got hold of (once again,2nd hand,ahahahahaha ),& have only flipped through,but I wonder if the same disembodied relativism I sniffed in CLEAR SEEING is growing stronger,& thus its deficiencies made clearer.Ill have to get back to you on that one. So ,essentially,I suspect Ardaghs presentation is lopsided,ingnoring Form in favour of Void,& using the excessive aspects of sociological postmodernism to take the place of embodied wisdom & skill.But that doesnt detract from the immense value of his material,it just has to be put into perspective is all.And if I recall correctly,he sticks a few Daoist quotes in there,which delights me no end Regards,Cloud.

OK Sean, here we go.Ive bravely delved into the ancient vaults in the west wing,& surfaced with...da-duh-duh-dah-duh-duh-DAAAHHH- ... KEN WILBER IN DIALOGUE,ed by Donald Rothburg & Sean Kelly, in which he does state "..As for peak experiences,it is states,not structures,that can be "peaked" (thus,a young girl might easily have a peak or plateau experence of the subtle state,but in the cognitive development line,if she were at preop she would NOT have a formop peak experience)." -pp 400-401. The book consists of critiques of Wilbers work by other transpersonal theorists,followed by Wilbers replies,including substatial critiques of the pre/trans distinction.Have you come across it before? Regards,Cloud.

So does anybody know if Sanchez has been subjected to the same scrutiny theyve tried to apply to CC.I ask because Sanchez is much more accesible,much more high profile than CC.Has anyone taken a serious look at his feildwork ?That would be very interesting Regards,Cloud.

Now here is something that interests me.Somewhere I recall reading a parable of Confucius coming across Lao Tzu sitting in ,apparently,meditation.From being totally still,reminding Confucius of a stiff,long dead tree,Lao Tzu suddenly becomes totally present & engaged with Confucius,happily chatting with him.When Confucius asks him what he was doing that allowed him to appear so withdrawn & then so outgoing,he says "I was letting my mind wander at the Beginning of Things".This brings to mind Adyashantis Sitting Without Manipulation,not being driven to lock awareness onto anyone thing,letting it rest deeply intself,or flow from event to event without contrivance.All of which presumes some faith in,or even experience of,the flow of things,the 'Beginning' of things.Does anyone else see a possible similarity here ? Regards,Cloud.

My perspective on this comes from a distintion between ethical practice & nondual experince.Neither guarantees the other,but each enhaces the other,NEEDS the other.Im wary of waiting for Insight BEFORE you embrace ethics.Ethics start at any moment you ackowledge value,even if that acknowledgement come from an 'unenlightened mind'.Im only vaguely familiar with Gangaji,but if shes suggesting that ethics cant begin without nonduality,I strongly disagree.Nonduality makes ethical action far more effective & effortless,but Im not sure it in itself generates ethical ACTION,as distinct from a lot of benign feelings. "The personality of the adept is,to be sure,oriented toward self-transcendence rather than self-fulfillment.However,it is charachteristically not on a self-actualizing trajectory.I understand "self-actualization" here in a more restricted sense than it was intended by Abraham Maslow:as the intention toward realizing psychic wholeness based on the intergration of the shadow into consciousness.The shadow,in Jungian terms,is the dark aspect of the personality,the aggregate of repressed materials.The individual shadow is ineluctably tied up with the collective shadow.The intergration of the shadow into consciousness is not a once-and-for-all event but a lifelong process.Intergration can occur either prior to enlightenment or subsequently.If intergration is not a conscious program of the preenlightened personality,it is also unlikely to form part of the postenlightened personality ,because of the relative stability of the psychic structures.'-HOLY MADNESS,Georg Feuerstein,pp243-244. For me,ethics is thus the conscious program prior to enlightenment,which then facilitates the endless 'deepening' of postenlightenment.Ive now forgotten the point I was trying to raise with all this,and am very tired,so I will bid you goodnight Regards,Cloud.

I would say start with the two R.de Mille books I mentioned in post 1.Ive also had a quick glance at the links from Mandrake in post 2,& they look promising.It really depends on how much detective work you want to do.More recently,there is Victor Sanchez, who looks interesting.I dont know how much his claims of anthropological authenticity have been scrutinised yet,but he seems to give a clear cut presentation of some of the same concepts that CC was proposing.I vaguely recall a guy named Runyan Wilde analysing Castaneda from an esoteric standpoint in the magazine PSYCHEDELIC ILLUMINATIONS,but that was a question of effectivness,not origins. I supppose for me my main interest is the integrity of these concepts that CC popularised.When is he being insightful (be it 'borrowed' insights or not ),& when is he perpetuating repackaged crap.Does anyone see a downside in his philosophy ? I will happily go into detail on my opinions on that,but I want to see if others have s sensed a sour note in his tune. Regards,Cloud.

Anyhow,to try & steerr this back to the question of Inquiry,has anyone noticed an imbalance in some of the neo-Advaitin literature? Im particularly thinking of Arjuna Nick Ardagh's CLEAR SEEING & TRANSLUCENT REVOLUTION .

Actually,for a really GREAT discussion on self-focus,other -focus & narcissism,check out any of MARK EPSTEINs books,particularly GOING ON BEING.He points out ego(in the western psychological sense) is not a single phase that you grow into & then transcend,but is rather a 'tool' to be employed at appropriate stages & then dropped until needed again.I dont think he uses those terms exactly,but thats the gist of it.Hes a buddhist as well as psychotherapist,but his stuff leaves a Daoist taste in my mouth (and by 'stuff' I am referring to his book,nothing else ) Neimad,I concur(am I using pompous language or what?! ).Those moments when Ive let go of small self are those moments when self expands,is revealed as Big Self.I let go of personal self-focus & everything else just rushes in AS Self.As that recedes,I then may have to tinker with small self to be more congruent with this new truth,& that is necessary self-involvement,but this tinkering doesnt go on 24/7.I suppose thats what Im trying to get across.In any single day I can oscillate between small & big Self as necessary,giving each their due.Its not like I finish small self & graduate to big,the two are inextricable. Regards,Cloud.

As an enthusiastic wanker (it alleviates the need for real human contact & the subsequent demand for emotional maturity on my part ) Im quite interested in this Tribulis stuff y'all have been going on about.BUT,are there any contraindications ? Should some people NOT take the stuff ? Would be VERY interested in feedback on this point. Regards,Cloud.

True up too a point.Self certainly has to be consolidated,so it can then be "forgotten" & you can get INTO life.If self-consolidation fails,then you have self-obsession,& that doesnt take you anywhere!You only have to think about self when it needs attention,fine-tuning as it were.Once youve tuned the cars engine,you can forget about it & get into travelling.Otherwise,you get trapped in the claustrophobic confines of your self-image,suffocating.What may have started as necessary self-work becomes endless self analysis & an inability to connect with anyone else. Self is a great game,a useful tool,but never an end in itSelf Yours Selfishly,Cloud.

Snobbery is not yet a disorder,but the enthusiasm of the psychiatric profession for pathologizing as much behaviour as possible will probably catch up to it,given enough time Actually,I have no problem with the pride of the accomplished & the certainty of the self-directed,even when a bit of snobbery is thrown in.Given a choice between the fearfully meek & the confidently assertive,Ill associate with the latter.

Cameron,I must disagree with your last observation.A close freind of mine has struggled with narcissism,in the sense of it being a disorder,for most of his adult life.When his bubble finally burst,& the turmoil hed been keeping out flooded back in,he then graduated into a functional alchoholic.While his narcissism was full blown,he was incapable of any creative activity,Now that he has direct experience of himself,painful as that is for him,he has started to make something of his life,despite the booze. True narcissism,the personality disorder,sabotages accomplishment,though it can produce some fascinating & exotic displays.Its nice when you finally get to glimpse the person you suspected was lurking under the mask,no matter how shattered they are when they first emerge.Perhaps this personal experience is why Im so picky about the term Regards,Cloud.

If I can succesfully pass of the image of living in a remote mountain hermitage stocked with arcane lore,I will then start hinting that Im actually some kind of 2000 year old Adept etc I particularly like it that youve given my hermitage wings,THATS a nice touch. But now to the more important business of wriggling out of promises.Ive not actually had a chance to check the books for Wilbers response to the criticism youve mentioned,& I mightnt get around to it for a while,Im sure its somewhere in his published material,just not sure where.Despite being a millenia old adept in a mist shrouded mountain monastery,Ive also been working my casual job A LOT over the past coupla days (my supply of lead transmuting philosophers stone is running a bit low)& hve been too eye weary to read much.Will get back to you on that one as soon as I can. Yours Mysteriously,Cloud.

Narcissism has fuck all to do with self-direction or devotion to a goal!!Its a substitue obsession with self-image,as distinct from actual accomplishment,to cover up an inner impotence & futility !!Narcissists are shallow cretins desperately running from their own inner desolation.Occasionally,they can be used for nice wall hangings .Beyond that,they are boring,& far too flaky to accomplish things of interest.Such poor,sad little turds are the best argument for compulsory eugenics I can think of. Yours in pure,nonjudgemental gushy love,Cloud.

Hey sean. Must say I dont think pre/trans necessarily excludes kids having trans experiences.Their day to day bodymind mechanism may still be adapting & refining its prepersonal-to-personal trajectory,but trans can erupt any time.I mean,it erupts in "adults" with NO discernable trans adaptions whatsoever!I think Wilber has allready answered this critcism somewhere ( though I am NOT a "Wilberian"!!)anyhow.I use pre/trans for mapping a trajectory of adaptive development in the bodymind,but that bodymind is ALWAYS arising in a transpersonal ground,even if it contracts away from feeling the full consequences of that everpresent ground.The transpersonal surrouds & saturates us,emerging without warning. And as I said,I dont just get the concept from Wilber.A Laya Yoga Guru from India tried to express the same idea to me,but he was struggling to find the right language.Do you want me to hunt down Wilbers responses to those criticisms?Ive probably got them stashed away somewhere in my dusty archives ( does that sound exotic,"dusty archives",Im going for a sort of "archaic & noble scholar" image ) This Big Mind is grabbing me though.Having read the Nondual inductions from the neoAdvaitins like Arjuna Ardagh,A Zen angle really appeals to me.I concur with your idea of such things providing an inspiring taste to the beginner.The Dao should somehow be tasted at the start of spirituality,not at some ever receding end. Regards,Cloud.

Sean,I have to agree with you here.The pre/trans distinction is certainly a useful tool .I dont think Joey & animals speculate much about these things,they just react to them.In infant humans,we see an immense spontaneity of reaction,a quality we would like to keep & nurture,along with their immense openness to experience.But we also see their reflex narcissism,a quality we would like them to expand out of into something broader.They live in a kind of innocent selfishness,if that makes any sense,& its quite appropriate to the infant.But its also immensely vulnerable to pain & terror,in the face of which that wonderful openness can quickly shut down. So it is not yet the Openness of Enlightenment,just the precious cognitive Vitality of the child,that vital quality that should fuel & motivate conscious adult yogas,if it has not been crushed. I think Joey manifests bugger all at that point in his life.The Dao manifests,& Joey is certainly a sub-category of the Dao,BUT the Dao is NOT a subcategory of Joeys rudimentary,easily dissipated Intent.Dont blur the categories,coz then you HAVE got Jews manifesting the Holocaust & it all becomes a bit distorted Opening your heart to the pain of the world is a daunting undertaking,& its tempting to shut down with the old egoic stunt of blaming the victim. I DONT KNOW IF YODA IS DOING THIS,SO THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY DIRECTED AT HIM!!(Im not actually sure if Ive understood him),Im just giving my take on one consequence of pre/trans confusion.Interestingly enough,while I initially got the term from Ken Wilber,it was later confirmed for me by an Indian Laya Yoga Guru.His language wasnt as precise as Wilbers,but he did make exactly the same distinction. Anyhow Sean,gimme some gossip on BigMind ya great big tease Regards,Cloud.

SunDog,1 2 & 4 are all possibilities in her case.3 probably doesnt apply,unless it was somewhere from quite a few months ago & its taken a while to kick in. She is quite extraordinary,not only in her innate talent,but shes also a totally focused,down to earth person.She never seems to have lost the childhood capacity for imagination & openess,but has no illusions about the world.Though in this case her high degree of independence & self-reliance made this apparent 'outside agency' disconcerting,as it wasnt happening on her terms,so she blocked it out,despite the pleasure of the sensations.Like a lot of independent ,stoic types,accepting help ,even from freinds,can be uncomfortable for her,let alone from unknown invisibles. But to return to the original theme of your thread,when she was initially overwhelmed into relaxing into this process,the intense,dry summer heat of where she lives transformed into pure pleasure for her,It became enlivening,not exhausting,but only during her initial acceptance of the process.Not as full on as a lightning bolt,but interesting nonetheless regards,Cloud.

If Id had my wits about me by the way,I would have called this thread the Dao of Adya

Peregrino,you are a source of dark & terrible temptation.Do you have the audacity to suggest we should be insulting God-on-Earth Dont you realize he commoits NO ERROR,& is instead graciously reflecting our karma back to us,selflessly taking on the appearance of vulgar sins for the sole purpose of exposing our own! You heartless blasphemer Regards,Cloud.

Freeform,its more like resources were dropped in my lap!Talk about luck.This Saturday im going to class halfahour early to get basic instruction in Chineses Tea Ceremony for free!And yes,I feel it should be a play of Chi Kung,but a very comitted play for me ,at least initially.A musician needs comittment to master an instrument before they can cut loose with a really creative tune,but its not a burden.Its too inspiring to be a burden Regards,Cloud.