liminal_luke

Announcing the First Annual Trump Talk South-of-the-Border Cookout. I can´t wait to try Ralis´s enchiladas with authentic New Mexican Hatch chiles and Thelerner´s enchiladas with mole. Kar3n, can you bring one of your summer salads?

Wheels within a wheel I am so over James Bond It`s a good song though.

This is a great antidote to a certain kind of spiritual greed I`ve sometimes noticed in myself -- my feeling like I had to learn some certain practice. There`s a saying that I`ve heard from Zapchen teachers that I like...everything is possible, nothing is necessary.

I am still hungry though the cheeseburger is gone. Where are you my love?

Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. Winston Churchill

Valentine`s Day sucks but I`m glad you`re here.

As rants go, this one is spot-on. Being right is to spirituality as Snickers is to food. I too hope for the deeper nourishment of genuine camaraderie and mutual support. The posts I find most beneficial are the personal stories (KumbaMela) and shared resources (DeMillo). Thanks to all who have generously shared from the heart. My life is richer for your sharing.

OK, so technically this is fire over water and not the other way around but still...can you feel the alchemy? To me the image evokes a certain sweetness.

Hi Freeform, I wasn`t going to reply to your post because I didn`t know if I could explain myself in an intelligible way, but I`ll give it a whirl. I like a lot of what you say. Totally agree about the necessity of engaging with life and not being a proverbial "bump on a log" who doesn`t strive for anything in life because he`s happy doing nothing. And I certainly don`t mean to suggest that I want to turn into a psychopath, quite the contrary. Since you do counseling, perhaps you`ve heard of dialectical behavior therapy? It`s a current interest of mine. The dialectical part of the name comes from the concept of synthesizing opposites, kind of like in Daoist alchemy. Wisdom, so they say, is often the product of combining two seemingly irreconcilable perspectives. One of the main "dialectics" in DBT is between the necessity of asking a client to change problematic behavior and acceptance of reality as it is. The theory goes that BOTH these stances are valuable in life: trying to change circumstances (both external and internal) and accepting them as they are. I bring this up because I believe our two perspectives represent two poles of a slightly different dialectic and they might be wisely integrated. There`s great value in striving for personally held goals. In fact, I`m not sure it`s possible to be happy without such motivated activity. (It wouldn`t work for me anyway.) And at the same time, I stand by my idea of decoupling my sense of personal worth from the achievement of such goals. It might seem like such a decoupling would be demotivating (why strive to do better if my personal worth is not on the line?) but in reality I don`t think it works that way. I think that having a strong foundation in positive regard that isn`t dependent on goal achievement makes accomplishing things in life all the easier. When we do accomplish things, I think it`s A-OK to feel proud. This might seem like a contradiction to my earlier statements but such is the paradoxical nature of life.

I agree with those who say there`s not much use in talking about fire, water, steam, etc outside of a practice context. Perhaps the most accessible way to get the training required to feel these things in your body is at a Lesser Kan and LI retreat with Michael Winn. There are preparatory levels to be practiced before one gets to this stage, but I don`t think a person has to practice for ten years first. I took this training with Michael Winn years ago and heartily recommend it.

What he said.

I suspect a great deal of the spiritual argument stuff is about wanting others to see us in a positive light. It`s a tendency I recognize first and foremost in myself. I`m not expert enough in any spiritual tradition to debate the fine points of doctrine or philosophy, but I still hope that people see me as wise. Intertwined with this egoistic motivation is a genuine desire to be helpful to others. So it`s both: I want my ego to be stroked and I want to be kind. Perhaps most of our motivations are like this, impure, neither all good nor all bad. One of my psycho-spiritual goals is to decouple my sense of worth as a person from my outward accomplishments. At the very least, I`d like to decouple my sense of worth from other people`s perception of my outward accomplishments. My partner is an artist and he struggles with this same issue. I tell him all the time: your value as a person is not tied to your ability to paint. You could stop painting tomorrow, stop painting altogether, and you`d still be the same beautiful person you are today. It`s more challenging to see that the same message applies to me. My worthiness as a person has nothing to do with what other people think of my posts on Daobums. I don`t go up in value if I say wise things or down in value if I say stupid ones.

I have to admit that I was a bit annoyed when I first saw this thread. What`s the point of casting aspersions on other people practices? Little did I know that it would provoke so many great posts about awareness during sleep and from such an amazing cast of Bums old and new. I feel newly inspired.

There are so many motivations for gift giving. One possibility is to give in order to compensate for some perceived unworthiness in ourselves. A person might not believe they are worthy just on their own of someone`s attention and try to make up for the lack with a gift.

Steve, Interesting. At a Yi Gong retreat I attended some years ago, teacher Jenny Lamb asked us to try to be aware of whether we fell asleep on an in breath or an out breath. She didn`t explain why we might want to know, though I suspected at the time that the question might be aimed at helping us maintain continuity of awareness between waking and sleeping consciousness. Perhaps it`s not so different from sleep yoga, though the teachings you describe sound much more fleshed out and we receied only the barest hint. .............................................................................................................................................. On a more general note, I find it useful to stay open to possibilities. People report all sorts of experiences here that are beyond my own and how could I possibly know that they haven`t had the experiences they say they`ve had? My not having experienced something is no proof that somebody else hasn`t.

I`ve been in semi-retirement lately but feel inspired to emerge briefly to offer an idea for a future Taco Tuesday -- picadillo. 4 tablespoons olive oil 2 pounds chopped lean beef (hamburger, in my experience) 2 onions, finely chopped 1 clove garlic, chopped 2 apples, peeled, cored, and chopped 1 pound tomatoes, peeled seeded, and chopped 3 canned jalepeño chiles, seeded and chopped 1/2 cup raisins 1/4 cup pimiento stuffed olives 1/3 teaspoon cinnamon 1/2 teaspoon cloves salt freshly ground pepper 1/4 cup slivered almonds Heat the oil in a large, heavy skillet, and brown the meat; then add the onions and garlic. When brown, add all the other ingredients except the almonds, and season to taste with salt and pepper. Simmer gently, uncovered, until cooked, or about 20 minutes. Fry the almonds until golden in a little olive oil and sprinkle over the top. from The Complete Book of Mexican Cooking by Elizabeth Lambert Ortiz This recipe is neither nut-free nor really a taco, but it is keto-friendly (I think) and delicious (I know). Picadillo is one of those Mexican foods that I didn`t know about until I actually came to Mexico. My Mexican partner loves picadillo and often has it stuffed into burritos and, in Zacatecas, as a filling for gorditas.

In the beginning Daobums was a place on the internet dedicated especially to the discussion of Daoist theory and practice and sundry other spiritual pursuits. Not anymore. Now the majority of the posts relate to politics and controversial social issues. Will President Trump save or destroy the United States? Should transexuals be allowed to use the bathroom of their choice? Everywhere we look these days, political divisiveness is tearing apart social bonds – community spirit, friendships, even marriages – and now it`s come to take down my erstwhile favorite corner of the interwebs. It`s a development that`s both sad and neurologically inevitiable. Because: dopamine. Dopamine is the neurotransmitter that floods the brain when we think we`re about to have a rewarding experience. And what could be more rewarding than demolishing the idiotic arguments of our political foes? That`s got to be as good as chocolate cake or sex or yet another pair of expensive high-heel shoes. It`s almost as good as cocaine; indeed, the experience of posting something contentious on the internet is similar in form – if not in scale – to a drug high. This is why we can`t (or won`t) stop. Our brains keep telling us that posting about Trump is going to feel good. I`m learning to recognize that surge of excitement that comes over me before I do something fun and destructive, something with the potential to please me now and hurt me later. I`m learning to say no to porn and that plate of fettucine alfredo. To say no to Trump Talk. So many of the most nurturing things – calm evenings snuggling with my partner, kale, quietly informative posts about Daoism -- seem boring to my process addicted psyche. In my fervor to regain psychological equilibrium, have I become that most annoying of characters – the moral scold? Am I making the logical error of assuming that my experience mirrors that of others? If so, I apologize. It`s like this: nobody hates cigarettes as much as the guy whose recently quit. In this journey to become our best and truest selves, there are phases where our voices become a tad strident, a smidge over-insistent. Or at least this has been my experience. Anyway, posting here isn`t good for me anymore... and so I`m going to try and stop (though I will still read the posts of others and offer occasional likes). Wish me luck.

in my humble view judgement is bad (sips coffee) goes outside to play

Opinion-Burnout There`s something about the medium of social forums like this one that encourages us to belittle themselves, and I mean that in the literal sense -- to make ourselves smaller. You don`t see all of me. My physical presence, for instance, is entirely absent. You don`t see the shape of my body, my choice in clothes, the sound of my voice, my mannerisms, Some of my sense of humor comes through. Some of the way I am with other people comes through. Mostly what you get though is my opinions. And, believe me, my opinions are far from my best feature! The medium of the social forum then encourages -- if not forces -- you to make a judgment about my opinions. You could choose to like them. (Yes please.) Or you might press a button indicating that my opinions make you laugh or feel sad or confused. It`s very likely that at some point you`ll present an opinion of your own, possibly in opposition to one of mine. If you do we can fight to the death, or at least until one of us is so forum-sick and disheartened that we up and quit this place altogether. The one who leaves, loses. (Or is the loser the one who stays?) What`s wrong with all of this opinionating? I don`t dare make a judgment. I`ve learned a lot from this place, over the years. I feel blessed. But a social forum is not the sky or a flower or a kiss. I`ll trade you a thousand opinions for a hug.

One way to think about judgment is to consider whether or not it`s in our self-interest. What does it feel like internally when we are judgmental? When we let our judgments go?

Maybe it`s not an all-or-nothing kind of thing. I think there`s a middleground where we have judgments but hold them lightly. We can learn to take our judgments less seriously, giving ourselves and others more and more room to breathe.

Thanks for the nomination, Pilgrim. I`m humbled by the notion but respectfully decline and in turn nominate Trunk and Ralis as co-administrators. More conservative Bums often criticize left-wingers for our lack of policy know-how and emotional natures. Putting me in charge would surely lend weight to that idea -- and we liberals are beleaguered enough. In my ideal world, people would actually talk to each other without putting down the character of those they don`t agree with. That`s the kind of Trump Talk thread I have long argued for and would actually enjoy. It`s not politics per se that`s poison for the board; it`s the way people talk about politics. There`s way too much attitude, way too much sneering. Of course so-called spiritual conversation is not immune from the same conversational disease. You are so stupid to think that the preheaven green dragon has to copulate with the inner yin of the red phoenix to get to the invisible immortal peach because my teacher said... If we could talk politics in a respectful way I`d be all for it. We can`t.

Exactly. Suppose you needed open heart surgery. You might "judge" that I`m not the right one to perform your operation based on my total lack of surgical experience and cardiac know-how. Such a judgment might well save your life. If, however, you came to the further conclusion that my lack of surgical acumen marked me as an inveterate deadbeat and all-around bad person, well, that would be taking judgment too far. Or at least I`d think so.

Judging gets a bad rap but we all do it. I think what people don`t like about so-called negative judgments is the aspect of non-acceptance. We do better when we accept the world as it really is. There`s a positive aspect to judgment too though, and that`s the quality of discernment. In our desire to be nonjudgmental, we shouldn`t have to pretend that we don`t know what we know, see what we see. Sometimes statements of discernment may seem moralistic and "judgmental" but they don`t have to be. I can perceive, for instance, that someone is lying and still be accepting of that person.