liminal_luke

Thanks for your response Trunk. I think sex is about so much more than sex as popuarly imagined. Our desires, or lack thereof, are entangled very deeply with who we are and how we feel about ourselves. Or at least that's how it is for me. And the desire to restrict ourselves sexually, as in jing retention, is likewise a very deep thing and potentially has to do with so much more than the conscious desire for spiritual progress. I agree that taking a step back and seeing the bigger picture of jing gong, rather than focusing narrowly on semen retention and what "day" I'm on, makes sense.

Trunk, I appreciate your cautious approach to this subject, and your concern for the health and wellbeing of your fellow taobums. Many male bums, myself included, are very intrigued by the idea that it's possible to advance in spiritual practice through jing retension. It's long been a goal of mine although I've never been successful enough to experience failing health. Emotionally though I think my cycle does take it's toll. Meditation and spiritual growth is important to me, and it irks me that I seem unable to retain my jing for any significant period of time. Perhaps my inability thus far is itself a sign that I'm not ready for what you call advanced jing gong? The whole topic reminds me of a study I read about recently in which scientists concluded that it's impossible for obese people to lose weight, and they'd be better off not trying. I'm not sure I buy that. There's so much evidence that being really overweight is unhealthy, you can't blame people for not giving up fighting the fat. Still, it's mighty demoralizing trying diet after diet and being successful for awhile only to gain the weight back in the end. Anyway, I tell this story because it illustrates what happens to me. I've got years of sex dieting under my belt, and always seem to put back on the pounds--go back to day 0. I'd love to hear more specifically what, in your view, the reasonable prerequisites to retention are. What questions should a bum ask himself to determine if retention makes sense in his particular case? What practices might a bum do to prevent stagnant heat if he does decide to try retention? Thanks, Liminal

Deci Belle, It's a little off topic, but this statement of yours confuses me and makes me think I don't understand the nature of spiritual attainment and enlightenment. In your profile statement you say..."Having gone all the way myself I only point at the source of impersonal awareness." Also, "If there is anything you consider not yourself it is obvious you do not see the empty kalpa." I find your writing very interesting, although I confess I don't always understand you. Anyway, here's what I don't get: how can somebody whose "gone all the way" say something to Taomeow so obviously snide and ego-driven? Do you see Taomeow as being yourself? If so, it begs an important question: is it possible to come from an enlightened perspective and be self-hating at the same time? As someone whose interested in developing spiritually and hoping that my efforts will eradicate my own not so insubstantial self-hating tendencies, I find the question quite personally relevant. Let's suppose that Taomeow had said something offensive to you--wouldn't the kind of high spiritual attainment you speak of make someone less reactive, more able to raise above it and just let go? Or is that not how it works? Ok, enough of that. Back to the topic--thanks for your service Taomeow and welcome back to "civilian" life.

Hi Perceiver, I'm no expert on managing kundalini so salt well and all that....but it doesn't sound like the microcosmit practice is working for you. I'd shelve it for now. It could theoretically be grounding as you're moving the energy back down as well as up. My experience, however, is that I move things much more efficiently up than down so the grounding effect doesn't always happen. Perhaps this is the case for you as well; I think it is for a lot of people. I don't have personal experience with them but the KAP folks always get mentioned as people who are expert on advising about kundalini issues. If you haven't, I'd consider contacting them for been-there-done-that personal advice.

Not sure if this is what you're looking for dmattwads, but have you done Kan and Li? It creates a very harmonious energy, neither yin nor yang. With all the other work you've been doing I suspect it would be very powerful for you. It's been awhile since I practiced, but my sense is that if you're personal energies are unbalanced you could always borrow from the energies of nature to get the right mix before "cooking" the energies together...ie add in a little volcano fire or a peaceful flowing stream as needed.

Have you listened to the Adyashanti video being discussed in another thread? He talks about some of the difficulties people have after having had an awakening experience. I don't know, but it sounds to me like very much the kind of thing you are going through. Hope you feel good/better in whatever you decide to do next. Liminal

deleted to eliminate snarky attitude

Maybe I'll live to regret this but....bring it on! I guess the fact that it hasn't happened is a pretty good indication that I'm not ready for it to happen. Have a feeling that if I ever suceed with this jing retention stuff plus get really consistent with my practice it eventually will. Guess I'll see. Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences. Liminal

I think it's very commendable that you're looking at how this pattern might have something to do with you especially as it happens, as you say, over and over again. One possibility, of course, is that you're perceiving the teachers as bad when they really aren't. Another is that you are repeatedly attracting abusive/inattentive teachers who aren't responsive to your needs. Just because it's possible that you "attracted" the situation doesn't mean you should stay. I'm sure a lot of martial artists think it takes strength to allow oneself to be punched in the gut, and maybe it does. What takes even more strength though is standing up and saying... "no, I do not believe it's good for me to be punched in the gut, and I will no longer allow you to do so." My two cents. Liminal

Thanks Seth! I often stand to do my kunlun and find that it usually brings things up a notch. Think I will give this a try.

This long shaking sounds really intriguing Seth Anada. I've done standing shaking for a few minutes at a time as a kind of warm-up, but nothing like what you're talking about. Is the effect different than a spontaneous movement practice like kunlun? (If thats something you ever did.) And oh yeah, nice achievement Hydrogen!

It's just no damn fun, being a hun. When my plans don't work out, I can't help but pout. I haven't been kind, sure hope you don't mind. On second thought no, if you don't like it just go. It's just no damn fun, being a hun. I've had it up to here, so don't test me my dear. Can't get life to flow, and I think I might blow. I yawn and I sigh, but can't say goodbye. It's just no damn fun, being a hun. But to turn into a po? To that I'd say no. Guess I'd rather be mad, than oh so, so sad.

Some murderous, hateful people believe in God, and some murderous hateful people don't. But I've yet to come across news of murderous hateful people who really get Manitou's "loving undercurrent." There's a hard won (I'm guessing) sweetness to that awareness I really respect.

What do people think of intentionally setting out to awaken kundalini? Most of the posts here from people who have don't sound all that happy about it. Is there anybody here who has awakened kundalini and just loves it? Lets hear about the benefits.

Pick me oh Kundalini goddess! I already suffer; why not suffer glamourously?

I'm interested in improving the fung shui in my bedroom, and apartment generally, as well. From what I've read so far it sounds as though there are lots of esoteric alterations that can be made, but perhaps most important is just getting rid of clutter and keeping the place clean. So that's where I'm going to start. When I called it housekeeping it bored me. Now that I see it as fung shui I'm more intrigued. Liminal

Women who want to have sex are bad???

Thanks Eugene. I think I'll try it. You think you can do a 100 day program and then stop and retain the benefits? If it worked I could see myself doing the 100 days once a year. Or is it really something where you're actually supposed to take the herbs indefinately?

Thanks Dmattwads! I have no idea if he'd agree with the specifics of my posting, but in the spirit of giving credit where it's due, I picked up the idea of linking different practies with levels of taoist cosmology from attending taoist alchemy workshops taught by Michael Winn.

I've looked at the Dragonherbs website and whatever he's doing must be working at least from a business,if not a health cultivation, point of view because I find myself fantasizing about all the herbs I want and wondering how I'm going to afford my treasures. Taobums have contrasted chi-gung and meditation practices with herbs and as a herbal newbie I have some questions for bums who may be better informed than I... Is it really possible to cultivate jing, chi, and shen by taking herbs? If so, how is that different from the cultivation that happens with chi gung practice? I'm wondering if taking herbs religiously for a month is roughly equivalent to say practicing tai chi for an hour a day. Or are the herbs and tai chi practice doing different things? If I work with smoothing out my emotions doing healing tao fusion, is that the same as taking a shen stabilizing formula? If I do chi gung movements designed to help the kidneys is that the same as taking a dragon herbs jing formula? As much as I'm tempted to fill up my dragonherbs shopping basket immediately, the web image of Ron Teegaurden does give me pause. I agree with a previous poster who noted he doesn't seem to have much chi. Ya kinda wonder if these herbs are as wonderful if he says why he doesn't look a little more vibrant or something. I'll probably do it though. He sells something called Tao in a Bottle--now how could I resist that!

This whole discussion has me thinking about goals in general. I love making goals and resolutions, oftentimes very mundane ones. Personally, I love taking showers and will stubbornly remain until the hot water runs out which, let me tell you, is not all that long at all in my apartment. Somehow though I'm ok with skipping my nightly tooth brushing if I'm comfortable in bed so that's on my goal list. My ultimate goal is to become a taoist immortal but I'm working on having clean teeth first. I find that one of the best ways to figure out the emotional blocks to reaching my goals is to simply do it and pay attention to what the act brings up in me. Sometimes action comes first. Years ago I set myself a goal to meditate for just 10 minutes a day. One day I just wasn't doing it and I couldn't figure out why not. Finally I just told myself that I was going to sit down and plow through those 10 minutes right then and there whether I wanted to or not. Well...I sat down on my cushion and promptly started to cry. I had no idea that would be my reaction! Didn't even know on a conscious level that I was sad. Following through on my resolution in spite of resistance taught me what was in the way. You just might learn something similar if you stop thinking about why you don't want to shower, checking taobums to see why other people think you might not want to shower, etc. Just drag yourself into the shower, grit your teeth if you have to, and get under the dang water already. The showering itself will teach you what your resistance is all about.

Any tonglen practitioneers about? I've tried it just a little bit, mostly focusing just on myself (tonglen for narcissists) and the most noticable thing was how relaxing it was. Thinking of taking it up again.

For me, it's relatively easy to leave people to their free will when their actions harm no one. Things get trickier--require more intelligence--when people's actions do harm some one. Is it still best to leave them to their own free will? What if the person they are harming is themselves? What if it's your significant partner and the person they are harming is you? If the intelligence fairy would grant me a wish this is the cognitive kindness I'd ask for: to know how to negotiate interpersonal gridlocks where my desire and somebody else's clash-- without controlling or allowing myself to be controlled.

Ah willingtolisten, don't be that way. I get that you're in a lot of pain, I do. But you know what? There are a lot of people here who are very knowledgeable and happy to offer help if you'll let them. You've been referred to some very knowledgeable and competent people (Santiago Dobles, Susan Carlson), and been given a suggestion for chinese herbs from an acupuncture student. What's the harm in trying out some of the freely given expert advice you asked for? You can always give up later. It takes energy to get help; it takes energy to listen. Could be that you just don't have it in you at the moment and that's ok. I'm sure the taobums will be here in the future if you're up for discussion down the road.

Opps, sorry. For some reason I got confused and thought this was about Max. Original post deleted.