DentyDao

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How so? Is this based on actual experience or conjecture?

 

Attachment to views is an important one to overcome. The elitism is some of these LSD posts clearly disqualifies the traditions as being Buddhist. Buddhism is a universal solution to suffering. Mahayana Buddhism especially, wherein one undertakes to liberate all beings from suffering. I have seen little to address this situation in any of the LSD posts. I will not comment on the validity or feasibility of LSD, but I will say that it is clearly not Buddhist. A Taoist priest once told me that Taoism is East to West and Buddhism is West to East, and it is best not the mix them. I find Buddhist practice better suited to me than Taoist--- but I won't go so far to say that Buddhism is superior.

 

One need not attain full enlightenment to obtain benefit from Buddhist teaching. One need not find a fully enlightened teacher to obtain benefit from Buddhist teaching. There are many levels of Buddhist teaching depending on the level of the practitioner. Many people need help with stress and negative emotions. Buddhism has a solution. Other people need help with dissolving inner boundaries that keep them in ignorance. Buddhism has a solution. I, and many others, have found that the proper teacher and teaching is provided at the proper time.

 

Many of your posts demonstrate a lack of knowledge about even elementary theoretical aspects of Buddhism. Perhaps you can stick to espousing your LSD and leave Buddhism out of it.

 

For one thing, we are primarily discussing Long Men Pai, not LSD. I formally studied Buddhism under a widely respected master for several years now, I have a very good base and know enough to know how little I know and how terribly little most do.

 

The simple point I was trying to make is that the traditions of Southern Asia like Theravada do not address phenomenon like the so called Rainbow body; which is actually a Taoist practice that was later adopted by Tibetan culture. The vast majority of Buddhist practice is very sound, it just has different elements depending on what culture and people you are looking at.

 

LSD does actually have branches that are completely Buddhist. I'm just one student of many, so you are generalizing about an entire school based on a dislike you have formulated about me based on something I wrote which you clearly don't even attempt to understand.

 

If you had been to China and met the masters of Lei Shan Dao, you would know that they are Chan Buddhists and that Lei Shan Dao, in at least one of it's main lines, was transmitted by Da Mo, the great Chan Patriarch and is a very effective method for liberation which is the primary goal of that system.

 

You may refuse to see anything other than what you want to see and hear and frame the discussion in these kind of childish and ignorant terms, but if you stop and listen to what's actually being said you might find some real value in the discussion.

 

Within the Long Men Pai and other lines that carry the practice of the so called Secret of The Golden Flower (actually this is a mistranslation of the actual title, which just goes to show how ignorant the vast majority of China's later scholars and practitioners truly are), there are a very objective set of skills one has to be able to master in order to progress. These have nothing what so ever to do with Lei Shan Dao. The example I gave was the ability to move the Shen out of the body, after first gaining the ability to call and hold it, and undergo a three day trial where the physical body is clinically dead. The discussion had nothing to do with Lei Shan Dao.

 

As usual this is totally pointless....

 

*smug elitist grin*

 

PS- Yes David is writing a book one the first part of the this practice in collaboration with Wang Liping (also a Buddhist btw), also with the full support and and backing of the Chinese government. It will be the first time that the government has openly financially backed and marketed a national qigong practice with Taoist spiritual teachings for all Chinese to practice for health and spiritual development since the cultural revolution (you can read between the lines there). It will teach the first part of the out outer teaching and it will be the first time that the actual practice has be shared openly.

 

Which would logically include deeply "loving" ones too, no? Because are't romantic or parental love some of the biggest desires/attachments of all? So should beggars, lovers, family & kids all be viewed with neutrality, then? Hell, why even feel anything at all if nothing really matters? Which is what the state of non-duality feels like - a state of perfect neutrality because nothing matters...

 

Now, these basic questions are probably all Buddhism 101, but I think that is excusable since this is a Taoist, not Buddhist forum.

This is not the idea of Buddhism. Buddhism allows you to care, it gives the ability to have true compassion. You just need to get some background in these things and then it will be much clearer.

Just email me: seandenty at hotmail.com

 

btw, David, Jed McKenna is not enlightened. That's the problem these days, his book will actually do more to confuse people even if it has some good aspects. If we really want to clearly understand these things we have to invest some time to study with a good Buddhist teacher. These days there are very few left. You need to find a well respected Khenpo or Lama. Theravada and Hinayana are somewhat limited in my view because they are dependent on interpritation people who are not enlightened, a lot is missing. Part of understanding Dharma comes from actual realization and experience. I'm speaking in general here is you want to understand things like Rainbow body in their correct context. People who dismiss such things are totally ignorant and usually have no realization.

 

Sean

...However, untill Buddhahood, even the Gods fall. Even in traditional Taoist circles, this is clear.

Thanks again, Sean.

 

Well, when I said nihilism I was referring more to "local nihilism" of our local consciousness and ego, I guess.

 

Jed McKenna, some shamans & even Buddha seem to say you must cut off ALL earthly attachments - including tightknit relations with family and loved ones. And essentially detach from your own personal history. And certainly, most of these guys did abandon their families for years on end or more during their spiritual quests.

 

But, it seems by expanding out from your local identity, you can then assume a much larger one and thus become "one" with the universe. Which would then be the opposite of "absolute nihilism."

 

However, as I have experienced neither "enlightenment" nor Yang Shen Dao...I am admittedly "ignorant" of both - and thus asking now, lol. And not trying to judge either - just openly speculating. And I do realize that such phenomena may well not be fully expressible in existing verbiage, anyways. But still never hurts to ask, right?

Maybe I didn't understand your question... I don't believe that rainbow body or something similar is a form of ego attachment. I would speculate it's a higher state of detachment if anything. In order to achieve these levels, one would have to have a great deal of detachment and realization.

 

In my Buddhist study, I learned that these things generally transend our relative thinking and ability to conceptualize. Remember that someone who is enlightened by diffinition is beyond dualistic thinking and concepts.

Hi David,

 

First of all, I'm not enlightened, so obviously bear that in mind. I can only repeat what my teachers have said and give some basic info.

 

The Long Men Pai and other lines that we study share the common asperation of enlightenment. This is very much in line with the Buddhist philosophy of enlightenment.

 

You should study Buddhism. It will really help clarify this for you, to that extent that it can be clarified at your (most of us) present level of intelligence. Enlightenment has nothing to do with Nilhism. This is the first teaching of the Buddha David. Nihlism is the antithesis to Buddhist philosophy. Nilhism says that there is no future life; when the body dies, we become extinct. It also denies the existence of absolute truth, making it perhaps the most destructive, negative view one can have because it denies any consequence for your actions or meaning or purpose. Nilhism may seem like smart outlook and intelligent view, but the Buddha rejected it because it always leads to suffering eventually.

 

Enlightenment is the realization of absolute truth; total self knowledge. Beyond that, you should really look to your practice and learn Dharma to get a better understanding of what enlightenment is.

 

As far as Yang Shen Dao or similar practices being just another attachment, people who speculate about such things or make statements like this are ignorant and have no idea what these things are. Nirvana can happen at level three in the Lei Shan Dao. The Buddhas that choose to go beyond these levels do so out of selfless service. It's not possible for us to realize such things at our level of understanding, but we can perceive some aspects in realitive, dualistic terms; we need to go beyond this before we start to make judgements and understand what immortality is.

Allen,

 

Not only is this common knowledge among intiates in the Long Men Pai, and others, Wang Liping himself discussed this in detail with our group. David is also a genuine scholar, recognized by the Chinese government and many high masters on teh subject. I've done the practice myself and undergone a practical curriculum in not one but three different lines. The actual method is not in texts or books, period. This is abundently clear. Students wait decades to learn this practice in the temples of China and even then the underlying theory is only partially explored. Not that there isn't some value in knowing some of the principles. I mean, most people knoe the very basics and those are in the books and they are clear and useful.

 

What is discussed in this and other texts are the principles and stages of the practice. Unfortunately, in part due to the complexity of the practice inself, texts are intentionally vague and incomplete. They are essentially partial commentary on the practice, processes and concepts. When you combine this fact that most scholars and practitioners do not clearly understand the terminology which is not found in the modern Chinese language, you end up with an impossible situation. This is infatically clear.

 

There are schools that have just the gong and part of Li and Fa (methodology and principles), and there are schools that have some of the Li, a piece of this, etc... Only a handful can call the immortal ancestors in the flesh to stand before you and strike reverence, and awe into the hearts of men and women. I mean Lu Dong Bin and the other fathers of the Dao, in the flesh. This is a living tradition.

 

There are many claiming to have this method, but they cannot move their shen and they have not, in most cases, been intiated or educated to understand what the practice truly is. If you just have the base of the method, it can be very useful and helpful in other practices and that is one of the strong points for including even a partial understanding of the method, as long as one has no illusions that they can cultivate Yang Shen Dao or Jin Dan Dao for example without a master to guide.

 

This does not mean that there aren't sincere practitioners who know some aspects and have achieved parts of the method; or that there aren't other methods to awaken.

 

I'm very aware that this practice has nothing or little to do with Lei Shan Dao, that would be silly; but then I'm not talking about the Lei Shan Dao, I'm talking about Liping.

 

Lot's of charismatic people would love to tell you that this practice is the birthright of mankind and all it takes is practice and information in books; if that were true then there would be many enlightened masters, but the reality is there aren't. The one's who are real can show it and demonstrate the objective skills to create strong faith in the student. There are about 10-20 real master left in China in this tradition. The rest range from awaken practictioners who have some knowledge, but are far from being a master to common criminals who have no knowledge or believe they do out of ignorance.

 

I think anyone who has a sincere interest in this way deserves respect, but it's also import to have intelligence and measure real progress in objective terms. If you can't be honest with the process then you will never succeed. Faith has to be tested and your practice needs to stand up to these criteria and standards that the ancesters layed out. This isn't something I'm offering as a personal opinion, this is just the way it is.

 

Only someone who has gone through the practice and succeeded to a high level can show you how to hold your shen and then master it to the required degree, and then support the real practice and life time of development.

 

Of course there is such a thing as a spiritual genius, one in a million, but it does happen. even these gifted souls would require a teacher at the higher levels.

 

Consider this, Wang Liping can count his equal in the Dao on his fingers, he is a living Buddha, but when asked he will tell you he but a child in the Dao compared to his three masters. One of the three is still in his earthly body. He never moves, they call him the stone Buddha; he is fixing his place in Heaven and from what David says he is a king in Heaven, a true God.

 

Keep reading your books...

Hey Sean,

 

What is the ultimate goal of LSD or Long Men Pai?

Liberation, enlightenment, buddhahood.

 

Or the "Secret of the Golden Flower" exercise?

This is the foundation practice of the Long Men Pai. It's a Shen practice. It's also the best practice for westerners since it is probably the most universal/altruistic method to liberation. Very few people know this practice with any authority. Taoists believe in teh power of secrets. There are hundreds of fakes, but no of them can demonstrate the most basic outcome of the practice which produces very specific skills.

 

And off on a slight tangent, where exactly does the Gold Dragon/Rainbow/Diamond Body fall within those paths?

There are big differences in different traditions when it come to this phenomenon; seems like concepts like this and whole practices tend to get mixed together and/or invented. Most people claiming to be able to do these things are fakes, that's just the reality. When you can transform your Dan Yao, you are a Buddha.

Darin, whoever told you what to practise has probably misled you. The Circulation of the Light or the reversed flow method is not as you described. I suggest you reread the Secret of the Golden Flower and the Hui Ming Ching [W/B] several times before venturing into the meditation again.

 

It is not easy to be self taught especially where you have no idea of the real signposts. Apart from mainly recycled stuff, I have yet to read anything of value on the websites of the so called neidan masters. Perhaps a safer way would be to find a real master who does and learn from him or her.

 

 

Again, the actual practice methods are not in this or any other book. You need a teacher or a different practice. Rereading or reading these books would be useful to someone, even with a qualified teacher, on an academic level only.

Sexual practice is a minor Dao and is one the many so called dark paths because of the tremendous potential for abuse; not that there is anything inherently bad in it. Suffice to say, if anyone publicly teaching this would have reached a high level, they would be able to reverse the stream of their urin midstream. At the lowest level, a practitioner should be able to 'drink' a class of specially refined mercury with their penis (about 14 times heavier than water; this is refined mercury that has no toxic effects) in about one second and hold it in their bladder for an hour or more to seal the lower gates. The rest is just to improve lovemaking.

As to whether Chia's particular techniques are dangerous, there seems to be evidence (as seen on Trunk's site, and in the experience of former practitioners here) that they at least can be. However, semen retention in and of itself is NOT dangerous.

 

If you are sexually active the way most westerners are and you are forcing yourself not to ejaculate, you are taking a risk. This is almost self evident, any urologist can explane it.

 

Simply not having sex is very healthy.

PS- I lived and studied with the guy who wrote the Iron Shirt curriculum for the HT, Ron Diana. He was very, openly critical of the Iron Shirt practice and the Sexual methods and stopped practicing many of the more forceful elements over a decade before he died.

 

I also worked closely with Michael Winn for three years; he was open about the flaws in the sexual practices and, as Craig mentioned, changed them to reduce the negitive effects.

 

Ron, advised ejactulation once or twice a month and regular prostate massage. He also did not teach the sexual practices the way they are written because so many had problems. Late in his career, his focus shifted to the work of Dr. Stephan Chang who advocated a very gentle version of many of the sexual practices for health and enjoyment. Ron was all about the enjoyment

The information from Craig and Kieth is pretty much right on. Any sexual practice or practice that involves manipulation the of qi is potentially harmful without the guidence of a qualified master. There are good practices in the Healing Tao that lead to better health and emotional balance.

 

I'm actually still teaching the HT Tai Chi and will be renewing my instructor certification this year.

 

Any spiritual practice done with devotion can lead to realization eventually. My critcism of the HT was primarily related to the safety concerns of some of the methods and the early claims of Chia which are now not really emphasized, although they are still there in print in the HT publications. In the instructor community, these things are old news. Chia has even expressed an interest in David's work recently; despite all gossip to the contrary, they remain on good terms. The only real controversy is on this forum.

 

S

This Q&A struck me as insightful...

 

Question: I find it difficult to believe in a personal God. In fact I find it impossible. But I can believe in an impersonal God, a divine force which rules and guides the world, and it would be a great help to me, even in my work of healing, if this faith were increased. May I know how to increase this faith?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Faith is in things unknown, but the Self is self-evident. Even the greatest egotist cannot deny his own existence, that is to say, cannot deny the Self. You can call the ultimate reality by whatever name you like and say that you have faith in it or love for it, but who is there who will not have faith in his own existence or love for himself? That is because faith and love are our real nature.

What is faith to you?

 

What does, would or did it take for you to believe in something?

 

Faith and Doubt...

I live in Wudang and am a practicing lay Taoist, and have many friends that are members of various temples, Taoism organizations and the like.

 

I have a Taoist Master I follow who is teaching the art of Dragon Gate Taoism from the Complete Perfection Tradition as founded by Patriarch Wang Chongyang.

 

His tradition is from the Qian Shan mountain area in the North of China, Liaoning Province.

 

We study Taoism theory, inner meaning of classic texts, Taoist Yoga and the main emphasis of study is on the practice of Internal Alchemy Meditation.

 

I seek to reply to your letter, as I have never mentioned Mr. David in any sort of an attacking manner, nor have I ever said anything negative about the methods they teach, nor have I said anything negative in regards to their commercial methods and business practice, nor have I ever had such a tone with his student Sean nor the teacher they follow, Mr. Wang Liping.

 

I did seek to show and clarify those statements which I knew were false.

 

It is one thing for us all to share our experience in Tao, it is another thing to spread exaggerations and falsehoods to impress students who have no experience or knowledge of what goes on in the Taoism world of China; especially while seeking those students for monarary gain.