DentyDao

Hi Lin,

 

We believe that Buddhism adopted many high and effective methods from Taoists. Anyway, I would agree with most of what you wrote. David had some interesting things to say about Da Mo/Bodhi Dharma. You might find it interesting from a scholastic standpoint anyway.

 

Of course, many Buddhist in China are very high level and Buddhism produced and still does, I have no doubt, liberated and enlightened beings. Not the point of what I wrote at all.

Richard is his last name. You were apparently given the wrong info.

Whatever you say. I spoke to guy personally and he is a member of our forum as well as a student of Mo Pai, at least he was before sifu retired. I don't know what you are talking about, but hundreds of people seek Pak John out every year, so your friend is probably someone else.

 

Bottom line, the story in the paper made John out to be a fake and he had no interest in correcting or challenging it and was happy to be left alone. Zhai, I'm sure is happy to do the same regarding the article posted on this thread.

 

Very interesting and detailed description of what David teaches. It seems to me that these are all Daoist techniques.

Yes, this is just one method David teaches. There are several, all Taoist.

 

There is no methods taught by Shifu Zhai then (who supposedly teaches Shaolin Geng Men technique, which is Buddhist)?

Zhai Sifu is Buddhist, nominally, but the methods he teaches are not Buddhist. The Chinese do not have any strict rule about using Taoist or Buddhist methods exclusively. Also, as far as I know, some practitioners in this pai are Shaolin, but Sifu is not and neither are his teachers. The old grand master practices Chan, but this is not the Chan that is written about; the only similarities would be at a very high level and of course philosophical principles and perhaps the way they sit and dress, at least the old grandmasters. The Shaolin were not the only ones who received teachings from Da Mo and they didn't get all his teachings either from what Sifu says if I recall correctly. There were some Shaolin at David's cerimony, Sifu said they have no real power or achievement. All that remains is a shell, they of course have Buddha Dharma which is a very high and effective teaching, no mistake about that. I would tend to agree with the masters on this point, but my only real point is that there are vast differences in what they do.

 

For clarity sake, I will elaborate. Zhai Sifu is a lineage holder of Da Mo Pai, the lineage that comes from Da Mo; a school that belongs to the line of the Dao called Lei Shan Dao. Despite what is written, it is unlikely that Da Mo himself was Buddhist. In any case, the lineage adopted the techniques used as well as Buddhist practices, so both are practiced.

 

What's more, Zhai sifu neither has Dan or Dan Tian, he has Xia Tian or lower field. Actually, what John Chang and Zhai sifu practice, at least at their current levels respectively, is qigong not neigong. We can say that they are both immortal and both very high, but not enlightened and no real neigong in the true sense of the words. David specializes in double cultivation of both Hou Tian and Xian Tian. So to cultivate Dan Tian, and do neigong is double cultivation.

 

The Dan Tian is the specialty of Wang Liping who often complains when so called masters come to talk about their Dan Tian and, in truth, don't even have Xia Tian, its lessor counterpart.

 

There is a lot more to it of course, but for now that is enough.

 

It seems to me that you don't really need scientists...all you need are a metal detector, an electrical measurement device (assuming that qi electricity will be very different from regular electricity generated by battery or Tesla coils) and an infra-red thermometer (or an infra-red video) to measure if an intense heat can come from Shifu Zhai's finger.

Well, we don't 'need' anything. The scientists have already agreed happily to run preliminary tests and it is they who are most interested in running the tests, from what I understand. It's not electricity and does not register on a voltmeter. It is qi and qi has nothing to do with electricity.

 

It is true that some masters train with high voltage electricity to create a yin field and speed up the training. The technology was developed by a friend of Sifu John Chang and is used in special opps training for the Chinese military. The application is mostly martial in nature and has nothing to do with real Tai Ji or Yin Yang Gong and is fairly low level. It's a tool used by some masters, but not all and a very effective although limited tool. From what I remember, some people use it to train level 2a.

Sean,thanks for answering.interesting read.I liked what was written about no thougt arising.I belive that is the key for getting the real results

 

It's true; and when your gong becomes good/stable, you can begin to return the Shen and the 'King' can return to his house. It is the great work. The mind has become the master and does not know its place is really to be the servant. So, Zu ji will help you to bring your own mind under control and use all your resources to do so, not just Xing which is only one half of the pie; and then the real work can begin; the return of the King.

 

But make no mistake, this transmission has nothing to do with shamatha or vipasana or any other Buddhist or Hindu methods or paradigm; it is unique to the Daoist tradition totally. To forge the Dan Tian, in the alchemical sense that it is used above is a process that is not found in Buddhism or India or Tibet, with due exception of some remote anomaly perhaps. These more popular and widely known systems have different goals and different purposes in many cases. In any case, they use totally different methods, so it is important to draw a distinction.

Edited for lack of seriousness and unnecessary clowning around. Carry on...

For anyone interested: Again, here are some really good indepth resources that have been written on Lei Shan Dao and Long Men Pai. If you want to take a serious look at these methods and the lineages themselves, you would really benifit by reading these two books:

 

Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Taoist Wizard by Kaiguo Chen, Zheng Shunchao

David is actually rewriting this book which is a biography of his main teacher Wang Li Ping, who is btw not Lei Shan Dao, although Lei Shan Dao is one of the lines he is a lineage holder of.

 

The Magus of Java: Teachings of an Authentic Taoist Immortal by Kostas Danaos (aka Kostas Dervenise).

David is still a non practicing student of John Chang and one of the few westerners still welcome in Java by John.

 

That's really my best advice if you want to explore these paths. I'm just a student, so it's not really my place to go around 'converting people,' just to say, the best way to find out about these practices is to begin with these books and then actually go and study the methods, if you felt so inclined.

 

David gave me permission to write a short biography of his life this year, so we will see how it evolves; maybe I will come up with something informative that will provide more insight for people.

Gentlemen,

 

The real test is doing the practice and achieving the results for your self. What difference does it make if some scientist or anybody else believes or finds proof? Yes, it a nice feeling and yes, it would be some validation, but life will go on and YOU still won't really know in terms of meaningful 'self' knowledge.

 

So, again, this whole dialogue is meaningless after a certain point. I think it's good to share and get some information out there and maybe correct some of the unskillful views on these matters, but really this is a practice for the few, not the masses. Science will never quantify the human soul and spirit and no scientist ever became enlightened and never will, at least not through the scientific paradigm.

 

 

Buddy,

 

I have read a little over at the empty flower. They live in a different world under a different belief system with different goals. Why go there and start a shit storm, what would be the point? Who cares?

Without commenting AT ALL on the truth or fiction of these guys abilities, it is worth pointing out that "scientists" are not trained to "look for tricks". James Randi, a man whom you yourself described as a bottom feeding illusionist (i.e. not a very good one) was able to set up scientists investigating "psi" abilities. He and his cohorts were able to convince scientists that what they were seeing and testing was real, only to later demonstrate how it was done. Again, this is not meant to comment in anyway on your particular school, so there is no need to get all worked up about it. It is only to say that in some circumstances it would be better to have well trained illusionists test or observe "superpowered" individuals instead of scientists.

On another note, in regards to your claim from before that some scientists had submitted a master's superwater to a mass spectrometer, do you have any references to this? It would be incredibly interesting to read about. It isn't everyday that new elements are discovered. That would really cause a stir in the scientific community since it would be clearly falsifiable and would be the first real demonstrable evidence of a type of supernatural ability.

 

 

Yes, I'm aware that Randi has made all kinds of claims about how easy scientists are to fool. But I also take into consideration the fact that Randi himself is not a scientist, he is not talking about strict government funded clinical trials, and he is an individual who spent most of his adult life debunking common Tarot card readers and amature psychics.

 

What I can tell you is that I personally talked to the scientist in Vienna who did the testing and he said, it is not a known molecular structure; it was tested against millions of samples. We are a long way from having published findings, but David wants, with the masters blessing, to get one hundred masters and run tests on them.

 

Honestly, I personally have witnessed enough to open up a little to the possibilities that science is not really a good reflection of reality, so to me it's an after thought; still such things have their place.

 

If you want to start to be able to see into my world reading the Magus of Java by Kostas Danaos. He is a very brilliant engineer who studied under John Chang, his master, and wrote a book about his experiences from a scientific perspective. You might also check out Opening the Dragon Gate: the making of a modern Taoist wizard.

 

Thes two books got me thinking in a different way. I followed it from there and met a few of David's masters; so gradually my eyes opened up a little and the reality is now it just seems normal.

I can't believe I never noticed this before, but in light of what Neikung wrote I took another look at the videos again. In case you guys didn't know youtube and other online video files get saved to your computer's temp directory as .flv file. You can download a freeware program like flvplayer and watch youtube videos on your own pc. In the turtle demonstration Jiang has a device attached to his belt. When he is supposedly "exherting his chi" what he is doing is contracting his abdominals and triggering the device on his belt just like what neikung's friend described.

 

Can you find it here? Hint look inside the red circle.

 

Arm goes up....

 

Arm goes down, abs tighten around device... and zap... instant yin yang gong

 

Yeah I know, I know. It's just a pager in case the immortals need to get a hold of him. How long are you guys going to keep up your willing suspension of disbelief?

 

Zhai was not demonstrating Yin Yang Gong, the electric like phenomena, but using his qi actually burn the hand of each participant without touching them. This is totally different. How would he do that with a battery pack?

 

The thing on his belt is his cell phone which I have seen him use... he talks into it and, amazingly, people talk back on the other end. Say it with me now, "telephone." He also drives an Audi and lives in a nice house with his wife and two kids.

 

I met to top scientists from major European universities who have met Zhai and done research on his abilities. These are people who look for tricks and are naturally skeptical who are going to be involved in helping run clinical trials. I mean do you really believe that twenty intelligent adults wouldn't notice a battery pack on his belt? It's kind of silly. If you go to the foundation forum you can read the testamonials of regular folks who went and saw that same things and were very skeptical like most would be in the beginning. Read their stories, some of them are very well written and go into great detail about what was experienced in a very balanced and objective way.

 

When I was in China there were dozens of masters, Jiang's students, several of them did the same demonstrations. A women student over the age of fifty with two kids passed yin yang gong to David and she was wearing no devices. Sifu was in his T-shirt and had no such device when I saw him demonstrate several of his abilities; same with his main student who also did demos for our group.

 

Many of David's masters have, including I believe Jiang Sifu, performed the same demostrations naked; students were doing the same and even western students can do these things now. So, from my perspective, it seems really contrived to look at a video and claim that his cell phone is a battery pack. He simply wasn't wearing it whan I was there. And, more to the point, there are around one hundred masters between Jiang and his brothers students, so I mean how can you really look at that say, oh well, they are just really clever at hiding battery packs in their asses.

 

Can a battery pack drop a four hundred pound bull like a puppy dog? Go read about the Bulls of Yellow mountain and the power of the Grand masters. Oh right, I forgot, I suppose it was the energizer bunny in sifu's cell phone, right

 

Again why not go and actually read the evidence that has been presented at the foundation forum. What sense does it make or what purpose does it possibly serve to go around on the internet trying to convince people that it was a battery pack? What are you getting out of that deal? What's your motivation behind such actions? If you were remotely serious about finding the actual truth, you would at least bother to read through the perspective of the people there and really think clearly about what you are doing and what your intention is. The demonstrations from the October trip were even more convincing and remarkable and you can read all of the eye whitness accounts from people who have no motive and nothing to gain by lying.

 

Wouldn't it be better, if you were truly interested in such things, to actually go and find out the truth and investigate it instead of making accusations over the internet?

 

What value are you putting on your own personal time when you engage in useless behavior and spend your time worry about whether some guy in China has a battery back that he zaps people with. I guess there are people who make a career out of debunking paranormal phenomena. Like James Randi; he spent his whole life going after Sylvia Brown and Uri Geller trying to prove they are fakes and they are both far more popular and believed in now than they ever were. While Randi sits at home having one heart attack after another because he spent his life hating people that he secretly longed to be like and admired. It's a sick twisted kind of game really, attacking others and spending your time worrying about the activities of others.

 

My question to all the real skeptics is why waste your time. If you aren't a believer, spend your time doing something useful like promoting a cause that you believe in, or a path you find rings true to you, and doing something positive with your life that you can be proud of and have something to show for when your short life ends. Why spend your precious time attacking and player hating.

 

It seems like most of us have at least figured that much out.

 

Don't be a Randi.

Even if these masters were evolved, I'd be surprised if they were sharing what they really knew. I know from learning internal martial arts that very little is taught, even to students. There are people who study IMAs for years who, from what I've learned, are not taught how to actually use tai chi.

 

Even if these LSD masters are able to produce miraculous results, what makes anyone think they would pass on the REAL teaching? Especially if they are prone, as denty would have us believe, to playing the trickster and passing on false knowledge. It is common knowledge that many Asian masters will not teach cultural outsiders their art. Besides Chinese tai chi masters, D.T. Suzuki is said to say that Zen cannot be understood by or truly taught to non-Japanese. Now we have these allegedly high level Chinese masters openly teaching for anyone who can pay? I doubt it very much.

 

It's true sadly to an extent, but David is an exception; he is Italian by birth and has been excepted as Tu Di by Zhai Sifu and now Liping. Foundation alone is a complete method for liberation, so it's there if you really want it bad enough; many of David's students are progressing now to the so called level two, which is something in and of itself. David's own accomplishments are truly amazing.

 

Some masters have restrictions about teaching to westerners, Zhai (Jiang) and Wang Liping do not.

 

Obviously, I'm engaged in the debate here, but really it's better for people who really want to know about foundation to go to the forum. The information there is very complete and and just makes more sense to present the information there. It really seems like a waste of time to make useless spectulations and judgments formed on hearsay and gossup. If you really want to know some basic info about foundation, go to the forum and just ask.

 

The forum will close to the public soon because David prefers to focus on his research and writing, but you can still get in for free for the next few weeks. After that, there will be a membership fee and David may do some Q&A via video conference.

 

www.foundation73.proboards55.com

Women get pretty disturbed by my 'Martha Forever' and 'Missy Till I Die' tattoos whenever I remove my pants. Well, by those and the fact that I just took my pants off on the bus.

 

Good times

Well, he does teach publicly. If you mean to openly reveal some of the training, I think there will be some of that inevitably, but if you take a course with David you would see why the training really does require a teacher to be present and guide and give the transmission. It's a lot of theory and practice and creating the proper frame for understanding. David also creates a field to work in like his teachers and carefully monitors the progress and capacity of the group to support that field and tap into it. The teaching can vary depending on the group, so it's important to understand that it is NOT one size fits all, cookie cutter methods and techniques. It's not a few simple techniques or breathing exercises; it's rather a set or system of knowledge that is passed on, some of it very complex.

 

And besides, David has a very good handle on making money, he really doesn't need any coaching or advice in that area, trust me. He has many irons in the fire including a 700 page manual and introduction on Long Men Pai that he is writing at the request of Wang Liping, a revised biography of Wang Liping and a major research undertaking with Zhai and the Chinese government, plus several other projects with various masters and his teaching and his own practice. Teaching is really a side hobby that he does for enjoyment.

Hi Sean,

Sorry to say that your argument that all the Masters have lied to lie to avoid public scrutiny rings hollow to me....I don't see the motivation in this story. As it happens, I know Richard, the guy who went looking for John Chang a few years ago...his story of what happened there is completely opposite of what you wrote in the forum..

The guys name is not Richard, I heard the story from John Chang's close personal student.

Sean, that's not what he said. He said on your forum what I described in my previous post. And all this talk sounds like Jiang is some sort of carnivale sideshow act performing at David's beck and call.

 

David was joking. David is a very sincere person and if people are sincere enough to come, he feels it is important to show them the truth.

 

Anyway, discussing it is not something I want to invest my time in any further. I would be dishonorable to continue to even entertain what was written about sifu. I'll end by saying that the article, again, is not the truth and Sifu and his students are a remarkable group that I'm proud to be a part of. The people I met in China were some of the most brillant, successful and compassionate people I have ever met who truly embody the Dao and help to carry the tourch fro new generations. There are many tests and illusions that must be overcome and it is the hero's journey that David has taken and that his students humbly follow.

David's invitation if I recall, was for someone to go over, and then be exposed to Jiang's "full power". He wants them to sign a waiver in case their internal organs implode or they die, and then pay full price to meet the master. Again man, even if this was real, that tells me a lot about the nature of his practice. I sincerely hope you find whatever it is you are looking for Sean. I hope I am wrong about Jiang.

 

David promised me that he would not injure anyone involved. Really, David wants to clear people's doubt; often the best way to do this is to have the student play the part of test subject. Zhai sifu will use just enough energy to give you a mild burn anywhere on your body. He has gone so far as to remove his clothing and stand in the next room to prove this and will be happy to do so under any conditions you request. There are of course other ways he can show you what he does by manipulating your body in various way, all from a distance without any set up, in any location or setting. If you really want these things proven to you then please do come and see for yourself.

Hi Sean:

I am not aware of any articles that support your sweeping claim above. Can you actually back this up with references (i.e. links to articles about someone with close personal experience with either John Chang or Wang Liping and claims that they are not real?).

 

Of course, we can believe whatever we want but when a large sum of money is exchanged, suspicion arises because the motivation for fraud is there. I assume from your answer that you haven't personally met Shifu Zhai.... how can you dismiss this article so easily then?

 

It's fine. I would probably come to the same conclusion in your shoes. Like I said, I met Zhai personally as an insider and he demonstrated things to me that I cannot explain any other way.

 

Anyway, Wang Liping headed up a major government research project in the 1980's and was not received well and basically accused of fraud. It was very public and Wang realized that the bridge was too far to cross and happy receeded from the public eye. As for Chang, I did have a chance to speak with the guy who is the subject of this post I wrote several months ago.

 

About a year ago a friend of mine named Andy D. in Indonesia, perhaps Pak John's closest western student, told me about a guy who, in his search for Pak John, placed an article in the local Javanese paper announcing his search and offering money to anyone who who would lead him to Shifu. A bold move, I must say; I'm not making a judgment.

 

Shortly there after he found John and so did a number of local journalists, who in there greed to get a juicy story, painted Shifu as a fake and a fraud. From what I understand, John was all to willing to play along, agreeing that the Ring of Fire video and his abilities were nothing more than cheap tricks. The whole incident had many of John's students who know better, including Andy, totally outraged.

 

Apparently, according to Andy, and as I'm sure you can imagine, there is a constant parade of seekers and doubters alike knocking on Shifu's door; probably more often then he would like. When these journalists questioned him, he just told them what they wanted to hear. Which makes sense to me; why would he care what the media decides about such things? It's not like a man in his position, even with all of his power, can controll pulic opinion. If I were in his shoes, I would say whatever it takes to get some peace.

 

This is really the way it's always been in China. The masters reveal themselves on there own terms. The person who wrote that article about Jiang (zhai sifu) was not a student. Just an ignorant fool; sifu was happy to play his game and send him on his way. You can argue about the ethics, but that is the reality and it's not likely to change anytime soon; just another door in the matrix.

 

if you can stand paying $5000+$200-$300 airplane ticket to go see him then sure.

Again, it's for free if you just want to have your doubts removed. If you can get their Zhai will do whatever is necessary to convince you.

Well, I would just simply say one, go to the foundation forum and read what David has written there. I have met Zhai Sifu and he proved to me beyond any doubt that he is real.

 

David has made an open invitation for anyone interested to come and see for themselves if it is reality or fraud. You can choose the conditions and setting and Sifu will submit to whatever checks you would like to do. Bring scientists and lawyers or whatever else you like. Free of charge.

Nothing new under the Sun... the article is bogus of course. But, people will believe whatever they want. There were similar articles about John Chang and Wang Liping; masters even often agree to play along at the request of the Chinese government. We wouldn't want the masses to start believing in such things now would we The truth of course is that men of power like Wang Liping and Zhai Shifu are themselves goverment officials and hold tremendous influence in their communities because they are a tremendous resource.

 

I personally met the two scientists who tested the water in a mass spectrometer; it was tested against millions of existing molecular structures and could not be identified: it's not a sugar or a known substance.

 

In China, Sifu turned the bodies of over forty people into sweet necture; they were licking themselves for days and even tested their urin. He will under go clinical trials in China next year.

 

Btw, Jiang can now change the water with unopened bottles due to his recent breakthough in his own practice and did so for one of our groups which provided their own bottles.

 

The grand master, a simple monk who lives with no modern or worldly possessions, demonstrated pyrokenisis at a distance on the people that were there and materials that students provided; he demonstrated telekenisis under similar conditions; he extracted the life force from plants and animals and transfered it to those in attendence. These are but the superficial manifestations of his attainments. Again this is a man who literally has no personal possessions and lives in a cave in China, having nothing to lose or gain by such demonstrations of power.

 

Go to the foundation forum and read the testimonals of the students who went to China this last August and October to meet the 120 year old grand master and his 99 yr old student. They performed all of the above and more and made a point of disproving such claims.

 

But again, to each his own. David and his students don't really care, ultimately, what others in the media have to say because we are developing these abilities for ourselves, that is he true 'acid test;' which is really beside the point since it is a spiritual endeavor and these are but the trappings. The masters are happy to have the public believe whatever they want and leave them in peace, truly.

 

The idiot who went to the press with his story is grossly misrepresenting what Zhai Sifu does and is. Sad, but this is not an uncommon reaction. The more Zhai Sifu brings his work out to the public, the more the witch hunt will be intensified; that's is really the main reason David is keen to run clinical trials.

Hey Sean, when you refer to "Sifu", do you mean Jiang? Or has David taken groups to Wang Liping too?

 

Yes, David takes groups to see both Jiang and Sifu Wang Liping. David lives with Liping when he is training, so he sometimes invites students to come and do retreat when Liping is available.

 

You need to have a strong foundation before David will invite you to see Liping... Liping has no time to waste, so you need to be able to sit 2-4 hours in stillness and have your base. About one year and you will be ready.