DentyDao

It has nothing to do with belief, Sean. It's what is present regardless of beliefs. A noticing of this presence may draw one to become a spiritual renunciate, but becoming a monk is not a guarantee of anything. Because no one is there to notice the noticing. There is no self in control of wether to notice presence or not. Deepening just happens. There is no self that deepens. The ego can just as easily spend 10 years on spiritual quest as it can on building a business or creating a family. In fact, in some ways it may even be easier to hide an aloof, detached, angry, aggressively seeking ego away in a cave than amongst society where there are constant demands for you to give back, and so much more room for getting knocked on your ass, embarrassed, hit in the face with bottles -- btw where were you with your "hands in front of your face" advice last month man, I needed you!

Traditionally, what your saying is true, if, over the course of many life times, one endeavors to slowly improve themselves according to the basic principles found in most spiritual traditions east and west. Not stating a fact, just a point of view shared by Buddhists and Daoists alike. But to achieve enlightenment in one life time (the Buddha's wish for all of us) requires a different approach... In the view of the Daoist and Buddhists I've come accross. The Buddha himself commented on this reality and was very clear about it. Wisdom or deepening as you call it, does NOT just happen. It's a result of the choices we make and the process can go both ways; we can actually become more egoistic and deluded if we don't know the causes of happiness and peace. These cause are very clearly outlined in Buddhism and Taoism (traditional taoism is perhaps less explicit).

There is only one truth, expressed in infinite ways. It's the ego that places monks and sifus and gurus on pedestals. Being drawn to a time of solitude and silence is more about a return to what is natural and ordinary for you than being "the best spiritual guy ev3r!!! -- way better than those stupid lost capitalist douche bags in that coffee shop back there, that's for sure".

I didn't mean to suggest that anyone is 'better.' More skillful perhaps. There are examples of enlightened householders, but that doesn't meen they didn't have extremly high levels of self discipline. Wang Liping for example, shocked his wife when she found out that he meditates 6 hours every night while she slept.

It's all one, including the infinite ways in which things are unique. All of the distinctions, good, bad, medicine, cocaine and health food as you say, these distinctions are also part of the one. The one is not a gross sloppy grey soup at the midpoint of two extremes. The one is dynamic and filled to the brim with Everything.

Does this even make sense to you?

Talking about Truth is pretty wild, you are right. I try to have a good time failing. I choose my words as pointers to silence. My own silence and anyone else who is reading my words. I know I fail a lot on my end, instead stirring more confusion and grasping in my own mind, so I can only imagine the kind of pure torture I put people reading my posts through. Sometimes though there is a real stopping here. My words seem to cancel themselves out, or maybe my mind just gets frustrated and gives up, and there is Silence, even amongst words.

 

Perhaps, like you say, literal silence is best sometimes. I've been thinking of making a transition to poetry but I think I am pretty bad at it. But there is less room for argument and I prefer to meditate than debate these days.

The Buddha said that absolute truth is beyond existence an non-existence, and therefore beyond words. He didn't say we shouldn't talk, but rather suggested we talk in terms of relative truth. It's true that 'I' does not exist, but we can give it a name; it's more practical and more honest. The Buddha wanted us to repect our limitations and fears and, in doing so, gradually move beyond them. All is not one relatively speaking and therefore we should respect it as such or we might get hurt.

We need to take care of our selves and consider the needs of others. Actually Buddha just wanted most people to understand this basic truth.

Good night. Thanks for the nice debate.

Just to clarify(For myself as much as for others) I think there is real value in connecting with a real, living traditon and would commend anyone with the committment and dedication to follow through with that level of study. Ime just not sure any of that is necissary from the enlightenment point of view.

Your not alone

there may be a subtle danger of little egos thinking they are somehow responsible for coming up with something or transmitting something. I am pretty sure the real teaching on this matter is it's not about transmission of anything so much as waking up to what you already are.

Sounds like more coffee tabel wisdom to me. "All those Taoists in China are caught up in some ego trip; We've got it all figured out here in the good old USA." This reminds me of Michael Winns commentary on the Buddha's "mommy issues." Say what???

I myself, don't know shit about anything. Just trying to be as honest as possible about that truth and live my life from the place of not knowing shit with open arms.

Only thing you've said that makes any sense all day.

Sean,

The Chinese have very different values and beliefs and ways of seeing reality. I have witnessed this first hand in China. We, as westerners, really don't have a clue about how these differences operate unless we are educated about them and this is why many westerners are dismissed or taken advantage of when they are first introduced to Chinese spirituality. The book I recommended is worth a read and points out some very helpful ways of understanding Asian culture and the Chinese mind; although, certainly the book does not contain all the answers.

I can appreciate your writing here, an interesting speculative argument, but, you should know that the term 'Chinese Mind' is really just pointing out these very real differences. If you are a tourist in China, you might never encounter these differences in a substanistive way, but if you want to study the Dao they should be considered.

S

Actually, I thought he meant big Sean. You don't have a pic in your avatar.

For the record, I don't think anyone was whining about the money. I personally dropped any rancor long ago and I believe so did most if not all of us. You seem to have missed the apologies and other very laudible ways some of us acted here in your broadsweeping swipe at us.

Who cares? I think you need to hear it again. My impression is that many of the people who responded to Li Jiong just wanted to kick him while he was down. I don't feel this changed much throughout the posting, but I'm not saying everyone was acting this way; many were supportive, but I think the negative is easier to hear and it's really too bad.

What you completly fail to comprehend here in your rush to defend your self is the fact the Li Jiong has left this forum because he felt misunderstood and attacked; gee, I wonder why.

Instead of worrying about who Li Jiong is complimenting and your next whitty come back, why don't you post something meaningful and positive. Perhaps if you weren't so busy being smug, you could look past some of the humanness of nice people like Li Jiong and just listen to what he has to say without being so insecure.

S

Just for the record, I have no idea how much or how refined my XianTian is. I'm not making a judgement about what Li Jiong said here, but I'm very much a beginner in terms of what I have accomplished in my practice. And not to sound condisending, but everyone on this board is, in all likelihood, a beginner relatively speaking.

I'm sad that Li Jiong left the board because I really appreciate the fact that he's Chinese and a practicing Daoist. Even if he is a beginner himself, he has a very valuable perspective as Chinese Taoist who is trying to reach out with his work here. It's unfortunate that he was not encouraged to share his knowledge in a more useful way. We could all have learned something interesting about some of the basic tenets and concepts that are the foundation of traditional taoist cultivation, but instead members here chose to pick apart Li jiong's intentions and unfairly judge him for cultural and belief differences that are very Chinese. The fact that this was not recognized is very telling and shows a lack of understanding about chinese culture and customs in general.

If you new what some masters in China charge for just the basics, you would soil yourself. And, the cost is well worth it. It means the difference between actual accomplishment and puttering around with bits and pieces that get you nowhere.

I find the pettiness and lack of compassion telling and very immature. Some of the members here come off like whiney teenagers bitching about an $80 translation. Plato is right, you should be ashamed of your selves. It shows unserious attitude that is very much frowned upon by any Shi fu worth his name. People here should be more sincere and understanding; it's about self respect and not acting like an ass, even from the comfort of your desk top PC.

Hey, maybe Li Jiong is off base here in some areas (who really knows?), but that doesn't mean we should dismiss the valuable insights he's has to share; very valuable cultural insights if nothing else.

S

Dear Li Jiong,

Only a few of the members here probably even know about HouTian and XianTian differences and meaning. It's ironic that many of the people who have voiced their irritation with your presence here have no idea of even these basic concepts in Taoism. It really showes a basic lack of understanding and disrespect for the tradition they aspire to be a part of.

Anyway, I don't want to be too critical of some of the well meaning members here; it's the way of the west to offer this kind of naive challenge. It just means they like you in their own crude way and are intrigued to know more. You should really be commended for sticking around, it shows some maturity on your part and a genuine desire to help. Good work.

Could you further illustrate the differences between HouTian and XianTian for those interested. I'd also be interested in a basic definition of these two terms for comparrison to the teaching I received. My understanding is still just very basic.

I think you should start a clinic here to teach some of the basic tenets of Taoism. Save you answers and publish it as a book for beginners. It would be really helpful for those with no real connection to traditional Taoism.

Peace, S

Li Jiong,

I just want to say I have enjoyed reading your perspective. Thanks for sharing this work; I would be interested in seeing further posting from you on this forum. I would be especially curious to know more about your perspective on the emergence of Taoist thought in the west.

S

P.S. I have found much of the criticism here of your efforts a little unfair- even misguided, but I think there are some interested who are perhaps less vocal; just thought I'd say so.

Wikipedia, as I'm sure you, can be written by anyone, biased or unbiased. There is a disclaimer on the wikipedia site that says it lacks credible sources (at least last I checked) and is basically a one sided attack. You failed to mention that. Dozens of respected scientists have validated Geller. People at the top of their field. All kinds of people have tried to disprove what he does with much more thoughhtful traps then the one you mention. But the research is convincing...

Here's one more. I couldn't resist this one:

"Uri bent a spoon for me, the first time he did it, I thought there must be a trick. The second time I was stunned, completely, completely stunnedand amazed. It just bent in my hand. I've never seen anything like it. It takes a lot to impress me. Uri Geller is for real and anyone who doesn't recognise that is either deluding himself, or is a very sad person."

David Blain, (American Magician. Star of ABC's Television Specials.)

Hey, I just noticed I'm now a "Dao Wizard"... I'm waiting for my powers to manifest... someone give me a spoon! All this posting has finally paid off and now I can retire and return to the source of all, the ever present Dao...

Who knows, his abilities were the result of a childhood episode and not any kind of "training,' so clearly the answer is probably no.

Your probably right

I think skepticism is healthy too. Again I'm not asking anyone to accept anything on 'blind' faith. I'm just suggesting that perhaps 'blind' skepticism should be examined.

S

Just a quick question, Sean - not really part of this thread... How many yin yang gong masters has David produced? is David himself a yin yang gong master? are there any westerners that have the yin yang gong ability after studying with David's teachers?

It's a fair question. David's current teacher has produced over 30 masters all in good health, despite Michael Winn's latest claims that these are extreme practices

David is not a master, by his own addmission, but he is well on his way. I don't know of any other westerner who is or has undergone this training successfully; that doesn't mean ther aren't any. David is a pioneer in that regard. He does have students who have been accepted by the masters he knows.

You should know for your own benifit that Peng is not a Yin Yang Gong Master of the kind I have been sharing about. Just more propaganda from Mike Winn. He is also not teaching his abilities which I think are genuine by the way. I have heard that his healings have some success behind them, but for those hoping to go beyond and actually learn these things, I would question the number of students he has produced who are yin yang gong masters- 0%.

He is rather interesting though and it's probably worth it to go throw down the money and have an experience.

Denty, can you expand on stabilization of clear light?

 

Yes, when the light is consistent it's stable. Have you ever heard the phrase, "I have seen the light." The expression actually corresponds to a specific level of accomplishment. This is what Chia has been tying to accomplish with his "Dark room" experiment for the several years. It's basically a light free environment where participants do meditation in hopes of developing this basic achievement, which, by the way, Chia has not been able to do by his own admission. I do respect his attempts and it's kind of cool that he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars (I'm just guessing) to create a facility and provide night vision goggles to all his staff and have them sneaking in to clean up poop and stuff like little high tech ninjas.

Unfortunately, all this is really unnecessary and a little strange if not totally ridicules.

The term clear light is from the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, but actually all of the various spiritual traditions have written of it. Very few achieve even this basic thing. You can read up on it in a book called the Clear Light of Bliss, but actually there are probably better books that give very clear descriptions of the various stages enlightenment and the states that accompany them. They are written about in many texts about Tantra.

S

Juan Li teaches an interesting Dream practice. This was ripped off other instructors in the HT and modified to be less effective in my opinion.