DentyDao

David knows Max by reputation, which is mixed in Asia at least. But, David did say that it doesn't mean Max's teaching is not good, he really doesn't know one way or another. He did express his personal opinion, but that is really beside the point for most of you (at least it should be); and even in light of that, Max could very well be at a good level. Kunlun is a well known and very respected school/pai in China. There are some very high masters in this line still today. David knew well that late lineage holder and had a chance to meet his successor who was present at David's acceptence cerimony. Kunlun has nothing what so ever to do with Lei Shan Dao, a lineage that belongs to Da Mo the famous originator of Chan/Zen. Lei Shan Dao, of course retains the full transmission of the sacred Ling Bao that feel down to Da Mo in the cave, having little to do with modern Zen. What David says is simple, 'You should know a few things about Kunlun before you open your mouth.' It is a high, high method that takes decades to realize and become a true master of, just like everything else, the rest is child's play. Does Max have it? Could be; if what Chris says is true, their is much Max does not reveal You'll find this is typical of most Daoists who actually know something, they like to keep you guessing. Like I said at the seminar, it's good... worth a closer look for sure.

My feeling now is that 95% of these discussions center around things we can only really answer for ourselves, alone.

Hundun, It takes courage to develop faith in a teacher, you have to lay down and surrender. Not an easy thing to do no matter how impressed you are with a teacher. Ask your self this, what are you trying to accomplish with all this questioning. You want to be convinced that Max has something to offer, right? Why not go to Max and really sincerely try to find out. No one here should or could truly convince you that Max is worth your time but you. You are so busy looking for questions, start looking for answers, ay. If your not interested, all your words are pointless, focus on finding someone who you can value as a teacher. It's pretty simple. Mo Pai consists of a few simple techniques. That's it, you can become immortal with for or five simple exercises and you don't have to know what it all means and what this or that energy does or doesn't do. Of course, whether success in that school is your tien ming is another story. Just to say, Max might not have all the answers, but that doesn't mean he can't teach people something real and effective. You didn't feel the transmission from Max, have you considered that Kunlun is not your Tien Ming, meaning you are not meant for it and it is not meant for you. This is perfectly possible; and the person sitting next to you might be come enlightened from Kunlun, that could happen too. I can't speak for Max, but Kunlun is high, high level. David knows their school well. So, I think there is probably something to it. You need to stop wasting time and move on, really.

1. Two pigs in a blanket 2. Back boobs 3. Junk 4. Junk in the trunk 5. Third hand

If you really wanted to find out if Max is the real deal, you would have the courage to talk to Max personally and study his system in a sincere way. A weekend seminar is not enough, you have to actually practice the system for a couple years to really know something about it. Stop pretending you are on some quest to help people. Besides, the investment of a few hundred dollars and a plane ticket is really nothing to bitch about. I know people who have spent 10's of thousands, given up their jobs and dropped out of society to meet a teacher with no garentees they would get anything out of it, so what is the great difficulty you are sparing people from?

Hi Chris (Mantra68), I attended one of Max's seminars and enjoyed being there; thanx for your part in helping get the word out about Max. I have enjoyed reading through your writing here and gained some insight into my own experiences here from reading what you have to say about your teacher. What you are doing is basically a waste of time and energy compared to what you could be doing to get the word out about Max and eventually you will burn out here and realize the truth of these statements. People are blocked from seeing what Taoism really is based on conditioning that they aren't aware of yet. They will always see you from a fear perspective, because they believe you have something they want and are trying to manipulate them. This is a basic pattern of human behavior. The rest are already supporting you and actively participating. "If one's words are not better than silence, one should keep silent." -Caine What I have found is simply that those who are drawn to Max, or any teacher for that matter, were drawn from the beginning and from your initial presentation here and also Max-from-NY's good reviews. Your time would be better spent writing a book about your experiences or publishing a blog/forum and sharing your insights. You would reach a far greater audience and help your teacher much more skillfully that way. Also, all of the above activities would be insignificant compared to the benifit you could share by going deeper into your own practice and helping carry on your lineage when Max is gone. Think on these things. Cheers, S

He also said Chia has not achieved anything in his practice and his masters all agree, including Wang LiPing, that the HT practice is flawed and dangerous and leads to no real achievement. Many people who practice this have disturbed their Shen and caused damage to their qi. Some, including some of the well know senior instructors have actually disbursed their Shen permenently and cannot progress spiritually in this life time. People would do well to leave this practice for good. Many masters who have heard of the HT by reputation, and met some of the students and instructors have commented that the practice is a crime against heaven. It's important to realize that these statements are coming from highly enlightened masters who simply and dispassionately have told he truth about the reality of the HT. For serious practitioners, there should really be no question here. Some of the HT practices are fine and can be helpful on a small scale with minor health issues, but any notion of effective cultivation with the practice is a total, utter fantasy. People who have done these practices, especially the sexual practices, go to meet a master and find out they have serious issues that require years of backtracking to fix, some have messed up their qi so badly they cannot be helped. I'm simply reporting what I hear from David and his teachers time and time again. As for your personal problems with me Little1, I have no quarral with you. It was David himself who banned you from our forum, not me. I would simply caution you again, no matter how good and powerful you feel, how many blissful sensations you have and how much 'progress' you think you are making, the reality is very likely far different. Really ask yourself what the goals of the HT are and what you getting now and what the price will be later. This is not true Dao... A perfect example of this is the fact that the HT has adopted the Nei Jing Tu diagram as a representation of their practices. The reality, not one HT method has anything to do with the practices represented in the Nei Jing Tu. Not One. The Nei Jing Tu was created by the ancestors of the Long Men Pai and they and a few others have made a point of not revealing its meaning. It has nothing to do with Lao Tzu, Bodhi Dharma or the microcosmic orbit... or any other meaning atributed to it by people with big imaginations.

The book is one of our practice texts, although nominally so. It is based on the Nei Jing Tu, an illustration of which can be found in the book. The Nei Jing Tu is a secret code that can only be broken by a master schooled in the art it contains, passed down in a lineage that knows it's true meanings and the methods it reveals. The original carving was created by one of the original sages in a tradition that is know commonly known as the Long Men Pai, headed by Wang LiPing, my grand master. You would do well to throw the book away, it is useless, with due exception of personal entertainment. The book is a translation of an authentic cultivation manual that was one, translated incorrectly intentionally by it's original author, the correct version handed down only to close students, two, meant only as a companion guide with actual teachings given orally by the master, and three, contains so many errors in the English translation that it is truly and completely flawed. Only someone who received the transmission from a real master, and achieved it's methods could even begin to make use of it. It is used in our school to illustrate a few key points and nothing more.

funny when you think about it that way. Part of the learning process I suppose. For the record, Tibetan Buddhism and Indian Yoga are the real deal, but Mantak Chia is definitly not.

What a great experience. First of all, it was great to meet and hang with all of you guys and get to know you a little. Second, Max is a very talented and powerful teacher. I would say at least 50% of those who attended had an experience similar to what Cameron described in varying degrees of intensity. People were laughing, crying, and going into all manner of spontaneous movement. And, I would venture to say that everyone felt something tangible. Even though I have committed to other practices, I was glad I went and definitely feel that I benefited from the transmission that Max gave. It was also inspiring to see many relative beginners exposed to something authentic; even if they don't continue the practice, they will probably look at things a little differently and probably never forget this experience. Anyway, in my novice opinion, I think Max worth taking a closer look at; thumbs up. S to the D

Just a side note; David has decided to make the best of a disagreeable situation and post some explicative comments on the YouTube videos. It doesn't mean he is happy about the situation; we hope they get removed and they may well, but we also understand that things may not happen the way we would like. I would say the main reason we don't want these out there is that is what Shifu Jiang requested. He just prefers the videos remain private and doesn't want his face plastered all over YouTube. We, as his students, just want to respect his wishes here. From an outside perspective, I would say this seems pretty reasonable. If some teacher out there was in a similar situation, I wouldn't have to search very hard to feel simpathic. I mean even if someone's home videos of their family got posted on YouTube without permission, I would understand why that person wouldn't feel comfortable. Anyway, we are trying to turn this into a positive. I would also like to say that Harry does a really good job explaining the reasons for certain things remaining 'secret.' It's not at all that we want to keep people out, as Harry can tell you. It's simply that these practices need to have the experienced eyes of the teacher to correct misunderstanding and protect the student from harming himself or others. I think anyone who attends David's seminars would agree that this material is hard to grasp and requires a concerted effort on the behalf of both teacher and student to really get properly tranmitted.

We just would have preferred that these be kept for private use among students for the reasons that David mentioned. I would suggest re-reading the post carefully. The edited video would have been for students only in any case. David would like to invite you to come to China and have Shifu Jiang demonstrate for you personally and whoever else is interested. This is the first time he has ever made an offer like this in 12 years. You are welcome to come free of charge. I was actually quite shocked that David said this. Shifu will preform to your satisfaction. This is a serious offer, Shifu Jiang recently demonstrated to a group of over 40 American students and is happy to do so under any conditions you request. I don't think anyone is saying that what was done is evil or drastic, but it could cause Shifu to withdraw and become less interested in working with the students David brings and, definitely, David will be more selective about what is allowed. There will be no more students videos; or at least it will be much more limited. In any case, the videos were removed and we are very happy that things did not go any further. Of course, but this all ended badly because the wishes of John Chang and his teacher were not respected. That situation is bitter sweat. I know. I would invite you to come to the foundation forum and educate your self on the reason for secrecy and why it's so important that these things are given within the teacher student relationship. We are not making shoes. Having said that, anyone is welcome to come and study with David; there is no special requirement and David accepts all comers. You don't have to be in with the in crowd or special or particularly smart; you just have to show up and act interested. I'm even thinking of putting together a scholarship fund for young people lacking funding to pay the tuition for training. Yours, S

One more note from David on the Turtle, who is fine by the way: "By the way the person who did this should at least have the intelligence of explaining that the turtle was used to check the "temperature" so not to kill or drill a hole in our hands. Shifu as you saw took plenty of time to try measure the amount of power emitted so to release the Yang Qi in the right amount, which means without Killing the turtle, but actually extending its life and probably helping it to develop special abilities using it like a power measure tool. The turtle was used because other then the obvious shell and not fur that would have burned, is a very Yin animal and can therefore better withstand Yang without damages, other then being dried up a bit (shifu asked about the smoke, Yin changing phenomena and not burning) on a human body would be used to heal and expel any cold like condition, so dispelling "spirits" as well and also to kill viruses, if prolonged would literally dry you up like a mummy." Btw, The rabbit that was spoke of, because it was killed in the way it was, was helped and benefited in ways we wouldn't understand. Firstly, its Shen was freed, as has been mentioned. Apparently, most of the time when animals die, the Shen remains trapped here. So, in addition to a freed Shen, the rabbit will be able to progress very far spiritually speaking. On a practical level, the Rabbit was eaten, its body made good use of.

I'm flattered... I think it's about time we all admit that 'ninja fantasies' and learning how to shoot lightening bolts is just about the most fun you can have on this planet.

Hey Guys, I was really impressed in reading through the thread here. I'm also planning to attend the weekend Seminar this month and look forward to meeting all of you who will be attending. Sounds like a great opportunity. Warm regards, Sean

Me too. Yep that's the guy. Well perhaps I need to read Adyashanti's work to cet a clearer picture. But it seems that he 'is' trying to evoke some realization. And I think that the term realization doesn't imply, a state, but rather a recognition of what's already there. This makes sense. Writing Koans and comtemplating true nature is another form of meditation; a method to realize true nature. Maybe in removing the seperation, we 'choose' to see our true nature. The Buddha compared it to polishing a diamond. The diamond is always there, just obscured by the mud of ego.

I'm not a scholar. Far from it. Actually the term you are looking for here is interdependent origination. All phenomina arise interdependantly from emptiness. I think we are both pointing to the same thing; but I just want to say that it is important to realize that choice does apply in a relative context. That's true. Buddhism says that you are, or the sense that you are, is thinking or mind itself and, what's more, the mind does not exist nor does it not exist; it is beyond existence and nonexistence. This is what emptiness or equanimity really means; beyond dualistic. It's true, but the idea of Buddhism is to get to a point where the recognition of this is always present. We use skillful means, just like anyone, to realize and learn to act always from this understanding. Easier said than done. True nature is much more illusive than that. It's a matter of directing thinking to itself. Just like th teacher helps the student by pointing. Perhaps the biggest real distinction here is that the mind or this sense of self is just a reflection of thoughts. Thoughts in turn are changable, impermanent. An finally, the nature or essence of thoughts, or mind, is awakening itself, the Bodhi mind, pure awareness. So, while it may be true that our true nature is always "awake" we should also recognize that this is usually obscured by the mind, by thinking; in other words by this sense of self that is so hard to shake away. How to break free? and is there a way? ?

Very interesting. Sean, are you a fan of Shi Ramana MahaRishi? And is Adyashanti's work a reflection of these teachings? *SeanD is being serious*

Now there's something we can all agree on... Shit now there's nothing to talk about.