DentyDao

Traditionally, what your saying is true, if, over the course of many life times, one endeavors to slowly improve themselves according to the basic principles found in most spiritual traditions east and west. Not stating a fact, just a point of view shared by Buddhists and Daoists alike. But to achieve enlightenment in one life time (the Buddha's wish for all of us) requires a different approach... In the view of the Daoist and Buddhists I've come accross. The Buddha himself commented on this reality and was very clear about it. Wisdom or deepening as you call it, does NOT just happen. It's a result of the choices we make and the process can go both ways; we can actually become more egoistic and deluded if we don't know the causes of happiness and peace. These cause are very clearly outlined in Buddhism and Taoism (traditional taoism is perhaps less explicit). I didn't mean to suggest that anyone is 'better.' More skillful perhaps. There are examples of enlightened householders, but that doesn't meen they didn't have extremly high levels of self discipline. Wang Liping for example, shocked his wife when she found out that he meditates 6 hours every night while she slept. Does this even make sense to you? The Buddha said that absolute truth is beyond existence an non-existence, and therefore beyond words. He didn't say we shouldn't talk, but rather suggested we talk in terms of relative truth. It's true that 'I' does not exist, but we can give it a name; it's more practical and more honest. The Buddha wanted us to repect our limitations and fears and, in doing so, gradually move beyond them. All is not one relatively speaking and therefore we should respect it as such or we might get hurt. We need to take care of our selves and consider the needs of others. Actually Buddha just wanted most people to understand this basic truth. Good night. Thanks for the nice debate.

Your not alone Sounds like more coffee tabel wisdom to me. "All those Taoists in China are caught up in some ego trip; We've got it all figured out here in the good old USA." This reminds me of Michael Winns commentary on the Buddha's "mommy issues." Say what??? Only thing you've said that makes any sense all day.

Sean, The Chinese have very different values and beliefs and ways of seeing reality. I have witnessed this first hand in China. We, as westerners, really don't have a clue about how these differences operate unless we are educated about them and this is why many westerners are dismissed or taken advantage of when they are first introduced to Chinese spirituality. The book I recommended is worth a read and points out some very helpful ways of understanding Asian culture and the Chinese mind; although, certainly the book does not contain all the answers. I can appreciate your writing here, an interesting speculative argument, but, you should know that the term 'Chinese Mind' is really just pointing out these very real differences. If you are a tourist in China, you might never encounter these differences in a substanistive way, but if you want to study the Dao they should be considered. S

Who cares? I think you need to hear it again. My impression is that many of the people who responded to Li Jiong just wanted to kick him while he was down. I don't feel this changed much throughout the posting, but I'm not saying everyone was acting this way; many were supportive, but I think the negative is easier to hear and it's really too bad. What you completly fail to comprehend here in your rush to defend your self is the fact the Li Jiong has left this forum because he felt misunderstood and attacked; gee, I wonder why. Instead of worrying about who Li Jiong is complimenting and your next whitty come back, why don't you post something meaningful and positive. Perhaps if you weren't so busy being smug, you could look past some of the humanness of nice people like Li Jiong and just listen to what he has to say without being so insecure. S

Just for the record, I have no idea how much or how refined my XianTian is. I'm not making a judgement about what Li Jiong said here, but I'm very much a beginner in terms of what I have accomplished in my practice. And not to sound condisending, but everyone on this board is, in all likelihood, a beginner relatively speaking. I'm sad that Li Jiong left the board because I really appreciate the fact that he's Chinese and a practicing Daoist. Even if he is a beginner himself, he has a very valuable perspective as Chinese Taoist who is trying to reach out with his work here. It's unfortunate that he was not encouraged to share his knowledge in a more useful way. We could all have learned something interesting about some of the basic tenets and concepts that are the foundation of traditional taoist cultivation, but instead members here chose to pick apart Li jiong's intentions and unfairly judge him for cultural and belief differences that are very Chinese. The fact that this was not recognized is very telling and shows a lack of understanding about chinese culture and customs in general. If you new what some masters in China charge for just the basics, you would soil yourself. And, the cost is well worth it. It means the difference between actual accomplishment and puttering around with bits and pieces that get you nowhere. I find the pettiness and lack of compassion telling and very immature. Some of the members here come off like whiney teenagers bitching about an $80 translation. Plato is right, you should be ashamed of your selves. It shows unserious attitude that is very much frowned upon by any Shi fu worth his name. People here should be more sincere and understanding; it's about self respect and not acting like an ass, even from the comfort of your desk top PC. Hey, maybe Li Jiong is off base here in some areas (who really knows?), but that doesn't mean we should dismiss the valuable insights he's has to share; very valuable cultural insights if nothing else. S

Dear Li Jiong, Only a few of the members here probably even know about HouTian and XianTian differences and meaning. It's ironic that many of the people who have voiced their irritation with your presence here have no idea of even these basic concepts in Taoism. It really showes a basic lack of understanding and disrespect for the tradition they aspire to be a part of. Anyway, I don't want to be too critical of some of the well meaning members here; it's the way of the west to offer this kind of naive challenge. It just means they like you in their own crude way and are intrigued to know more. You should really be commended for sticking around, it shows some maturity on your part and a genuine desire to help. Good work. Could you further illustrate the differences between HouTian and XianTian for those interested. I'd also be interested in a basic definition of these two terms for comparrison to the teaching I received. My understanding is still just very basic. I think you should start a clinic here to teach some of the basic tenets of Taoism. Save you answers and publish it as a book for beginners. It would be really helpful for those with no real connection to traditional Taoism. Peace, S

Li Jiong, I just want to say I have enjoyed reading your perspective. Thanks for sharing this work; I would be interested in seeing further posting from you on this forum. I would be especially curious to know more about your perspective on the emergence of Taoist thought in the west. S P.S. I have found much of the criticism here of your efforts a little unfair- even misguided, but I think there are some interested who are perhaps less vocal; just thought I'd say so.

Wikipedia, as I'm sure you, can be written by anyone, biased or unbiased. There is a disclaimer on the wikipedia site that says it lacks credible sources (at least last I checked) and is basically a one sided attack. You failed to mention that. Dozens of respected scientists have validated Geller. People at the top of their field. All kinds of people have tried to disprove what he does with much more thoughhtful traps then the one you mention. But the research is convincing...

Here's one more. I couldn't resist this one: "Uri bent a spoon for me, the first time he did it, I thought there must be a trick. The second time I was stunned, completely, completely stunnedand amazed. It just bent in my hand. I've never seen anything like it. It takes a lot to impress me. Uri Geller is for real and anyone who doesn't recognise that is either deluding himself, or is a very sad person." David Blain, (American Magician. Star of ABC's Television Specials.) Hey, I just noticed I'm now a "Dao Wizard"... I'm waiting for my powers to manifest... someone give me a spoon! All this posting has finally paid off and now I can retire and return to the source of all, the ever present Dao...

Who knows, his abilities were the result of a childhood episode and not any kind of "training,' so clearly the answer is probably no.

Your probably right

I think skepticism is healthy too. Again I'm not asking anyone to accept anything on 'blind' faith. I'm just suggesting that perhaps 'blind' skepticism should be examined. S

It's a fair question. David's current teacher has produced over 30 masters all in good health, despite Michael Winn's latest claims that these are extreme practices David is not a master, by his own addmission, but he is well on his way. I don't know of any other westerner who is or has undergone this training successfully; that doesn't mean ther aren't any. David is a pioneer in that regard. He does have students who have been accepted by the masters he knows.

You should know for your own benifit that Peng is not a Yin Yang Gong Master of the kind I have been sharing about. Just more propaganda from Mike Winn. He is also not teaching his abilities which I think are genuine by the way. I have heard that his healings have some success behind them, but for those hoping to go beyond and actually learn these things, I would question the number of students he has produced who are yin yang gong masters- 0%. He is rather interesting though and it's probably worth it to go throw down the money and have an experience.

Yes, when the light is consistent it's stable. Have you ever heard the phrase, "I have seen the light." The expression actually corresponds to a specific level of accomplishment. This is what Chia has been tying to accomplish with his "Dark room" experiment for the several years. It's basically a light free environment where participants do meditation in hopes of developing this basic achievement, which, by the way, Chia has not been able to do by his own admission. I do respect his attempts and it's kind of cool that he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars (I'm just guessing) to create a facility and provide night vision goggles to all his staff and have them sneaking in to clean up poop and stuff like little high tech ninjas. Unfortunately, all this is really unnecessary and a little strange if not totally ridicules. The term clear light is from the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, but actually all of the various spiritual traditions have written of it. Very few achieve even this basic thing. You can read up on it in a book called the Clear Light of Bliss, but actually there are probably better books that give very clear descriptions of the various stages enlightenment and the states that accompany them. They are written about in many texts about Tantra. S

Juan Li teaches an interesting Dream practice. This was ripped off other instructors in the HT and modified to be less effective in my opinion.