DentyDao

In August 2006, long after the incident with David bringing students to Java to meet Chang, David chatted with Sifu Chang on his cell phone in front of our group before class one afternoon. The conversation was very friendly and I could hear John Chang's voice and laughter on the other end of the line. They were making plans to vacation together, just to spend some time and discuss life. Unfortunately, David had to be in China for his acceptance ceremony in the coming days and couldn't meet with Chang that week. It seems clear that there remains a deep connection and friendship between them. John Chang seems like a really great guy and amazing master. He spent years traveling in India and China looking for others like himself and even sent students to China to seek out high masters. I think he is perhaps more open minded than his students give him credit for. One of David's dreams is to get these masters together to meet and compare notes and Liping in particular is open to such things and indeed has worked with Jiang and many others. That the possiblity that Chang would keep in contact with David and perhaps accept an invitation to visit is deemed offensive, well I don't really know how to respond; it's not an issue for me, so it's no problem to drop it. It's rather irrelevant in any case. Perhaps John Chang and David can work out their differences if there indeed are differences; somehow I think they would since they both have a lot of class and very big hearts. In any case, the process that David will undergo is rather fascinating. He will do a three or four month retreat; the culmination of which is a three day period where David will be clinically dead as he sends his Shen out; this while Liping, Jiang and other masters watch over his body. You can read about Liping's experience when he underwent this type of test with his masters in his biography. If he survives he will be a walking dead man in the world but not of it. I'm very happy for David and pray every day for his and his masters continued success. David's work has opened many doors. These are very rare and wondrous things. PS- I got a nice letter today from David. He did confirm that Edward is legit and spoke very well of him again. He said he admires Edward's courage and dedication, "The guy has guts." So, props to you Edward. I hope what you share here is one step closer to educating the west about the reality of authentic Daoism.

Ok, if you say so. It's true. I only know what David has said. I do however maintain contact with friends of John Chang living there and they say David is on good terms and is one of the few westerners still welcome. There are a lot of people claiming to be Mo Pai these days so I generally don't listen to the gossip that's out there. I don't make any money off my association with David. I did study Mo Pai level one. I went to Athens and was accepted into Wenwukuan and trained with Victor Wooten. Beyond that, I claim nothing. I think you are making more of this then you need to. I mean if John Chang was simply David's friend, is it worth getting upset about?

I would agree. David has a video of Sifu Wang tranforming his body onto 'light.' At the highest level, yang shen Dao masters can dissolve their body into light and then come back to their form. In tibet some practitioners can do this after they are clinicaly dead, Sifu Wang can do it and come back; and this is not some fancy metaphore, only a real Buddha can do such things. Yet, if you asked him to show you some ability, he would just laugh and say, "I am old." If you really master emtpiness and form, then you can demonstrate these feats; and you need to be already very enlightened to do such things. Most people just talk about these things and write cute poetry about enlightenment. The reality is very different.

David was accepted by John Chang as a student years ago and did train with him. In 2002/03, the mopai closed its doors to all westerners, including David. David has maintained a relationship with John Chang as a non practicing student, meaning they are friends and still keep in touch. I never claimed to be an authority. It might help if you read the whole thread, I think this is the third or fourth time these questions have been raised. You don't have to believe anything I say, but many Mo Pai students have talked openly about the time they waited to be taught, gifts they gave and sacrifices they made. It's not that big of a deal really.

I just directed you to Jim, who is teaching for a nominal fee. Do you know what people have given up to get these teachings? Some of Sifu Chang's students have waited decades, bought John Chang cars and given lavish gifts, given up their families. And you can't be bothered to drop a few dollars. I mean really. Mr. Miagee is rolling in his grave.

www.zhengzongdadao.com I 'can' but I 'choose' not to. There's a distinction.

When I learned the methods, I was respectfully asked not to teach them without permission since people could get hurt or kill themselves if they don't have a teacher who is qualified. I feel that I need to honor my word. If other people want to do something else, that's their problem. Again, the cost in Denmark is comparable to other seminars out there and most of the students come by word of mouth and a few take a leap of faith. It's about affinity. Na, there's lot's of good info and good people there; the cost is $125. You should see what a professional coaching forum typically charges. Some of them are 300.00 a year and up. Anyway all the info is on the website for free, you don't have to join the forum.

What you have heard is rumor and hearsay. David's program is not this expensive not even close. Of course if you want to train for three weeks in China and party with a master, well then yes the price is up there, although no where near what you're quoting; but this training is for the commited student who feels called to this training. Is it a big leap of faith, sure. But then no one is asking you to do it or telling you you should. Look I understand the 'let's just pay expenses' and keep things open attitude and it makes sense if you are just teaching some qigong or martial arts, but that's not what David does. If you just want the Mo Pai express, go find Jim. It will take him 10 minutes to explain over the phone and he doesn't charge and dime; just be nice, I would guess, and respect his ground rules not to teach without permission. I can tell you the methods past level two and up to three. It's like three simple breathing exercises. The point is, how many succeed and what is the purpose? I was talking about Daoist teachings in general. There are very few masters with real knowledge that can be applied. It will likely always be this way.

Actually the truth is that the teachings are being lost. This is from both John Chang and Wang Liping who know both know the facts in this case I can assure you. The reason why is more complicated than just money. To become a student of a master like Liping or Jiang, you give your life and it is a great responsability; there are different levels of student. To become a disciple or Tu Di, you give up your freedom and submit to the will of the master. This concept is totally foreign to the western mind which cannot accept such things and will never understand them. The other level, or catagory, is just to be the masters friend and student. Much less responsability in this relationship. Of course, the master still will help you achieve and wants you to achieve. But back to the point, the reason these teachings are almost completly lost is due mostly to lack of interest. The bottom line is most people are simply not interested in sacrificing a normal life to or, on the other hand, their own pride and lack of will power to really train and do what it takes to achieve what is essentially almost impossible in many cases, depending on the training and methods one undertakes. The other point is that some teachings are just not meant for the masses. Mo Pai is in that catagory. Think about it, in 40 years of teaching, John chang who is level twenty or so, has never trained a successful student; why? The answer is obvious, because he chooses not to. Don't get me wrong, he wants his students to succeed and encourages them to try; but he also doesn't help them the way he could if he truly wanted to. According to David, he doesn't give empowerment the way Jiang does until the student has reached level three. It's also telling that John Chang is quite happy to remain at his level and has no ambition to go futher. Even immortals value a normal human life. And traditionally, only one or two Mo Pai per generation reach beyond the level four. It's their way and it has to be granted by heaven for any man to have the power of a God. One could even say that it is not in everyone's best interest to have this power and in most cases, it would be a mistake to teach if the blessing of the master is not there. All this to point out that the idea of getting the techniques and actually succeeding without the help of John Chang is just wishful thinking. Yes everyone can reach the level two if they apply their mind and practice and sacrifice their personal time and it's a worthy goal and it's what John Chang wanted people to get; although even here you will need the help of a qualified teacher. In some ways like John Chang, Liping and other masters simply do not teach methods that are not appropraite for most people. Meaning that it's truly not in their best interest. On the other hand, a method like Sheng Zheng Gong is more universal and can be applied by westerners as well as Chinese with benificial results. And, what can be shared in writing and books and passed on to the masses will be and that is Liping's wish and also the wish of many high Daoist Saints and immortals.

It's a bit of a simplistic interpretation, don't you think Pat. I meen the supposition here is that it's a valid demonstration designed to show that the student has accomplished something on an internal level. Now, if you just don't believe it's possible, that's another story. But if you do, then you have to at least accept the possiblity that there is a deeper meaning. Even from the point of view of someone who is totally ignorant about qigong, we can appreciate the hard work and dedication of the martial athlete who has the discipline and ability to focus on a given task and succeed.

Agreed 100% Have a nice day.

Harry, I respect your position entirely. I do understand that you are a skeptic. Believe it or not, I am too, but I went and tested my doubts unlike David's detractors. The point is these people aren't skeptical, they are obsessed. It would be one thing to post on a thread once or twice and say, this is probably BS and here's why. But people are making statements of absolute knowledge and going way beyond skepticism. I could triple this list just by going back a page. These are presented as statements of fact along with: 1. David never even studied with John Chang. 2. He just started studying Chinese a year ago. 3. He's claiming he has a PhD (he not actually publically claiming this, although I believe he does have one based on what he told me.) 4. David is greedy. 5. Dishonest. 6. Unethical. There is a level of hate that comes from deep insecurity here, not skepticism. Ultimately people can think for themselves, so it does bother me on an emotional level. But their claims are so outragous that, even though I'm just a student, I can't help but interject and give my perspective. It's just pure crap. David is making no claims; his students created the website the forum in closed. The only research David is publicly claiming is his own personal research. Gamerute is looking at a few things I have said a on a chat forum and and a few claims made by a student of David's on his old website; from that he starts ranting full blast about what a scam the whole thing is. I mean could there be a more clear case of personal bias? And then after he prints my private conversations with him in public, claims he won't reveal his identity because he is afraid I will physicly harm him and goes on a personal campaign to discredit me and David, he then claims I'm being hysterical when I don't go running to David to hunt down this personal information for his. I don't have a private line to David, we are friends, but it just would be appropriate for me to call him everytime someone has a question. If my insult, which was done with no hysterics ( I don't get hysterical unless I'm at a party), seems so uncalled for to Gameruet , then I think he needs a lesson in basic manners. I was actually very polite the first time he raised the question and gave as much info as I had, which wasn't much. Thta's when Gamerute starts beating the whole scam drum, and not just once or twice, but on and on and on, without any new information, just accusations and rhetoric and statements presented as facts that are actually just rumors and nonsense. I did eventually ask David to provide some general information about his academic study. I have already posted that and given names and contact information. Again David is not publicly presenting himself as a PhD, so the point that he is using that to rip people off is not really valid. I will read through the website and see what is there. Perhaps I will suggest a revision if there is anything there that could lead to any misunderstanding. But, people don't come to David for his credentials. They come because he is one of the best teachers out there and because he has successfully cultivated himself. Even if these were valid concerns, is that really a good reason to condemn someone and try to publicly discredit them? I don't think so, this is about obession and power. Gamerute and others have been around since the beginning of the Mo Pai thing. They think they are being shut out for one reason or anotherand they really want the knowledge; but because they lack faith in themselves, they attack others. Some of these, a choice few, became so obsessed that they started threatening Kostas and others. All kinds of wierd stuff. Instead of being nice and just asking privately, they hacked Kostas forum and destroyed it. What I hope Gamerute will realize at some point is that, he isn't serving anyone with this kind of behavior. He's directing his outrage at the wrong person for one; I'm just a student of David's. Even if I wanted to, I can't provide the information and answers. There is only so much I know. I don't have the kind of relationship with David where I can act as his representative or his 'voice.' And it wouldn't be fair to ask me hunt David down and say, "Gamerute needs a copy of your PhD faxed over and he's really pissed." LOL. I will send an email and see what David says; he may say nothing. He's not interested in promoting himself in that way. Whatever was said on the website was said about his personal research. He does hold Tu Di Status to some of the most respected masters out there and that is government issue and real and very rare. The amount of education and dedication it takes to earn these titles make a PhD totally meaningless by comparison. I mean Michael Sasso, you might as well say Michale Winn. The guy has nothing. Oddly enough, most academics are usually just that. Did you know you can get a PhD from Michael Winn in cooperation with Great Western University in CA. I mean, this is a totally meaningless program based on pop psycology; who gives a shit. You can write a thousand books and still not know a single fart about what it takes to become immortal or enlightened. All the PhD's in the world are worthless when it come to liberation and enlightenment and none of these so called experts is or ever will become enlightened.

Pat, The sad thing is you couldn't be more wrong. This is about your personal pride. This is about your own beliefs and bad experiences with other teachers. You have never met David or any of his students. You are caught up in a personal battle with yourself. This is not about David, it never has been. This about how you feel you are perceived by the members here and perputating the image of a yourself that you have created; the guy who is concerned about other people and always fights the good fight. It;s a fantasy. David has students study with him for years without paying; David trusts them to pay when they can. It's not really about the money. It's about affinity. He is a wonderful, successful teacher who has meaningful teaching practice and life that exist outside of the Taobums world and your ability to see clearly. David's students are his friends and have a deep respect for him; they are not sheep or people who need saving from you. They just live in a different world than you do. They don't live in fear and distrust and falsly accuse others and start ongoing trashing sessions that last months, that they can never let go and put down and never see in a different light; or try to understand the point of view of the other side. The truth is, if Harry didn't tip toe around you, if he let one word slip that he was offended by you; you would out of some pretense of pity, quickly include him in your list of 'suckers, and greedy, misled fools.' Indeed you all ready have. On what basis do you continue this kind of shit.. I mean do you even realize that there are other people on the other end of the computer line or is this some kind of game for you. Sean

We had a chance to sit down with Jiang and he addressed this article with us. We didn't ask him to because we know it's bs, but he did it anyway because he wanted us to hear his side of the story. I wrote about it here: Link When he changed the water for us, he did it with out breaking the seal on the bottles which were provided by our group. The water was then tested at three universities by mass-spectrometer, a special machine that determines the molecular structure of pretty much any known substance. These records our stored in a massive data base and used to compare to test material. What they found is that the water Jiang treated was not any known sugar or recorded compound; it was tested against millions of known moleculer structures by scientists and found to be an undocumented, unknown substance. The article came out after one of Jiang's students wrote that he was a fraud on a blog in Asia. The local press interviewed him and created a sensational story that is a complete fabrication. The student has since retracted his statements and made a formal apology to Jiang. He even gave us his phone number if we wanted to talk to him and ask him what happened. As it turns out several of his friends, treated by Jiang, recovered from serious health conditions as a result of the treatments. The picture you see of the hand with the needles and 'jello' are fakes. That's not Jiang's hand and he proved it by showing us the article and letting us compare the picture with his hand. He also showed us these demonstrations and allowed doctors to observe and check the proceedure. I have witnessed these proceedures several times, and I have also been treated by Jiang. Jiang's abilities are completely legit in my observation; he does not use needles to break the skin, he uses qi and slaps the hell out of you. The affected blood and stagnation pool at an area determined by Jiang and he uses a suction cup to remove it. This is not a common practice in the sense that only master can do what Jiang does, but it is not unheard of either. A lot of people do cupping, just not in this way. What's being pulled is diseased blood. The consistency can vary depending on the disorder being treated. The amount and speed that it is withdrawn with are remarkable. Jiang did a number of very objective demonstrations and let the group document the proceedures and do checks to varify that he wasn't using needles. This is a classic example of how things get distorted by the media. I was there. I also read the letter of apology from the student who started the whole thing and he clearly states that the article is a fabrication. He was upset with Jiang because he wasn't getting to learn the methods as fast as he would have liked and because Jiang showed him how to train in the Xiao Dao, a lower order training done with tesla coils. This is not the Lei Shan Dao training, although it does have some applications in qigong, it has nothing to do with the training David or Jiang himself do. This is a typical type of test a teacher would give a student to test their patience. Such devices cannot generate visible light from your naked hands, kill a man or drop him to the floor, leaving him sexually impotent for two months afterward, just with a hint of power; or drop an elephant, David has a video of that one. Neither can they control the intensity of power emitted and the form of it; from electric like pulsation to vibration to heat. Nor can they discharge and be recharged by using the life force of a bull as some have witnessed in their very own very body-mind. Jiang, more then once has turned the water in my body and those of entire groups sweet with his qi field that appears and desappears, and the sweetened bodies ooze sweetness suddenly days after-but strangely not our clothes. The sweet taste is on your skin, in your sweat, saliva and urin for days; not to mention all the other abilities like burning and telekinesis and all the rest. Many have seen it and know is real. What is needed are clinical studies if you want to prove something on a broad basis. Until then it's just a nice bedtime story to most. According to David, the Chinese government has been engaged is this research for decades. Jiang participated among the many and Liping was head of the committee in the 80's, but after 40 years or more of research, they have not yet published anything, why? Because they do not have a paradigm, and when they tried to go public it backfired. Liping as well was accused of fraud and became wise enough to know that to go public without first creating the right context just creates confusion. For everyone else, the true skeptic is welcome to test these claims. David has extended an open invitation for skeptics to come and test the reality of these things with their own body-mind, really the only way. Let them bring a lawyer, a scientist and a doctor of their choice. Choose the set up and conditions let them come and feel and see it. After having realized their foolishness, they can go home wih a new perspective on what is real and what is a fantasy. All the others as usual just talk and should be free to do so.

Again, I do trust David. I don't see what the problem is. The Mo Pai is closed and that includes David; the only point I was making is that they continue to be friends and David remains dedicated to his Sifu. David's masters often encourage him to practice with other masters, so I don't think it's something so out of the ordinary.

Harry's right Pat... let's let peace rain. "We are the world, we are the one's who make a better day, so let's start liven."

Indeed. Houtian, of course David is not training the mo pai methods. As for your answers, I think we know what kind of information you will give.

That's good to know. From my perspective, your desire to fight seemed very childish. Perhaps you should just be honest about how you feel in the future. Pat, generally when you tell some one that they have angered you and offer a challenge to fight them in public, it comes off kind of weak. Again just filling you in on my perspective. Well, it seems like you don't get out much. You see, in your dozens and dozens of posts stating that you think everyone who follows this paths is a fool or some how stupid, your making a pretty strong claim given the fact that you have never met David or studied with him. Did you ever consider in all your great wisdom that not with holding these kind of judgments, unless you have some personal experience to back it up, is kind of like yelling a Christian or a Muslim because they failed to provide you with proof that their God is real or that the money they make/collect from their members is a get rich quick scheme without ever having entered a church or a mosque. From my perspective, it's your behavior that's offensive and uncalled for. Get to know somebody before you judge them, is that unreasonable?

When I was with David, he and Sifu Chang were in contact and they are teacher and student. I can only tell you want David has said and I have no reason to doubt him. You are misinformed. David did study and train with John Chang. That's right David achieved level 4 using the methods of another school within the Lei Shan Dao. The principles and results are the same. David knows what he is doing and is in excellent health. Next... Look, the bottom line is David did what he set out to do and he is opening the door for those with an affinity that want to follow in his footsteps. He has always been upfront about the sacrifices and trials he has gone through to get where he is and ther reality is, this is a practice for few. Most just aren't up to the task; when you consider that you will have to forgo many of the comforts and everyday convenieces that make up the average life style in the west. How many of you who are interested are really willing to practice 4, 6 and even eight hours a day? Even if you have the money and time, would you? For those that are truly interested, that know that 'this is it,' it's not a question of how or how much money or waiting for his or that to happen before you feel ready; it's either do it or die trying. If you don't have that attitude, the rest of the debate doesn't really matter. Some of you behave as if you expect the master to come to you and comfort you and explain everything just right and provide all he inspiration and all the proof so that you can be satisfied and feel that the master, whoever he is, has proven himself worthy to you. That's just not how it works. You have to go and do the practice and research and investigate and come to your own conclusions and find your own truths. And after you have searched and searched and tried this and that and done this practice talked to such and such a teacher, you have to be honest with your self and ask how much have I really achieved and am I any closer to the knowledge or happiness or achievement that I'm looking for; it's called taking responsability for your own spiritual life and it's not about wasting your time looking for questions. If all you do is look for questions, you will only find more questions, that's how it works. How many can say they really achieved awakening and really cultivated something and what that means with a deep certainty? You have to find your answers. Start looking for answers. It's just not really useful or honest to continue debating and talking about it. Interested parties will have to find out the truth the hard way like the rest of us.